The Emperor was wrong

[Kristoff]

 

Because the highly religious are typically very resistant to the kind of massive changes he had in mind.

 

To sort of give you a parallel, look at any historical data on the Dark Ages. The church was in control and scientific advancement just stopped completely for several hundred years. Any change to anyone's world view was seen as a threat.

 

It's not much of a stretch to see how the Emperor would encounter problems convincing the various religious leaders to do things his way.

 

At the end of the day, the ban on religion was just a simpler way to move forward than negotiating with thousands of different religions that were going to end up fighting you anyway.

http://i.imgur.com/0mw1I8e.gif

 

This is not only a complete misunderstanding of history, but an utter lie. There is no such thing as a "stagnation" in Europe in the 'Dark Ages', the phrase itself being a misnomer as it refers to the fact we have very little surviving accounts from the early middle ages (immediate post WRE era) to get a good view of the world. It was in fact the Church copying and preserving old Roman books that saved much of the old knowledge from destruction under the anarchy of the Early Middle Ages. And there was never any scientific stagnation. Religion rarely, if not ever causes stagnation of science or culture, these are typically symptoms of other problems such as perpetual warfare and anarchy.

 

Realistically the Ecclesiarchy would actually be the greatest source of education in the Imperium, as not only do they have the greatest logistics spread across the Milky Way to do so, but also have the (nebulous) unity to at least make some sort of unilateral push for literacy. And it's in their best interest as well- while ignorance to a degree may help fend of Chaos, the ignorant aren't capable of reading religious material and spreading it.

 

Furthermore the idea of pushing an atheistic state "belief" on all you conquer is just damn stupid. All you achieve by trying to stomp out religious is angering every single religious body you stomped on, and giving them all a common enemy. And it's not like it's even enforceable, there should be countless hundreds of trillions of underground religious citizens still practicing their old beliefs the Emperor annihilated because unless you have a psyker going door-to-door you aren't going to know what the population's opinion on the Imperial Truth. And as we know from history people are 100% willing to martyr themselves in droves if they think their religion is honestly on the line, which can prove dangerous when you're building manufacoturums on most of the worlds you conquer (sabotage, sneaking nuclear devices into what they build, etc).

 

The Imperial Truth wasn't a smart or effective way forward for the Emperor. it was bull-headed and it's obvious that 40k is fiction considering that realistically the Imperium would have ripped itself apart from religious strife before the Great Crusade even gained momentum on account of revolts and sabotage. The sensible way for the Emperor to take (with making a secular state obviously not being optional) is to have simply started a cult surrounding him from the start. Subvert local religions into recognizing him as either a part of their pantheon or their chief monotheistic deity. At the very least you can have one group of people devoted to you while angering some, which is far better than alienating everybody.

 

 

And yet, that is exactly what happened.  It was a very Catholic way of doing it.  Most of the worlds just converted the Imperial Creed in to their own religion and followed that.  They went from addressing (insert deity name here) to "The Emperor", and that did it.

[Olis]

I know it's tough to discuss this without making real world references, but doing so rustles jimmies. This is not directed to anyone specific - stop dropping in references to current religions or the 'dark ages' (or lack thereof). That sort of discussion is better suited for more polemical places on the net. 

[bluntblade]

It takes A D-flipping-B to make folk take notice of the Emperor using Horus' name to Diocletian. I've been trying to make that point for months now.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

It takes A D-flipping-B to make folk take notice of the Emperor using Horus' name to Diocletian. I've been trying to make that point for months now.

 

Maybe it's me, but I thought it was pretty clear in the section with Land meeting the big E that everyone interprets him in their own way as per their own understanding.

 

The Emperor's own personal views are never truly expressed because the book is never from his viewpoint. With the exception of that first page when he says "Magnus" every time the Emperor is shown, he is shown form the perspective of another character.

[Ascanius]

 

The constant and pointless overindulgence in grimdarkness basically put any claims of moral superiority on part of pre-Heresy Imperium to the ground with bolt round through the skull.

 

I mean, the Emperor's Space Hitler whether he's alive or dead. *shrug* It's not "pointless overindulgence in grimdarkness", it's who the Emperor is and what the Imperium is about.

[bluntblade]

 

It takes A D-flipping-B to make folk take notice of the Emperor using Horus' name to Diocletian. I've been trying to make that point for months now.

 

 

Maybe it's me, but I thought it was pretty clear in the section with Land meeting the big E that everyone interprets him in their own way as per their own understanding.

 

The Emperor's own personal views are never truly expressed because the book is never from his viewpoint. With the exception of that first page when he says "Magnus" every time the Emperor is shown, he is shown form the perspective of another character.

I seem to recall you being the first to articulate it properly.

[tylerw]

I don't personally agree with that sentiment.

 

While I would personally believe that faith is part of our nature, the idea that religion is ingrained in our being is an entirely subjective point of view that could potentially delve into a topic that could easily get this entire thread melta blasted in a heartbeat.

 

Faith has two definitions. One is the belief in some form of deity or in a religious doctrine. The other is a complete trust in someone or something. While I do not believe that the former is a necessity of our species, I believe the other is. Humans are sociable creatures that are typically drawn to the appeal of becoming part of something greater than then, to be connected with others in some community with a common goal or ideal. 

 

The Imperial Truth is that common goal. We commonly disregard the Imperial Truth as just a 'no religion' stigma with little depth to it, but there's so much more to it than that. It is a crucial identity, an absolute belief in the capabilities of mankind and the potential of our species when we follow our ambitions together. That's the core value. Together. No longer are we torn assunder by warring ideals and political systems. We are no long tied to conflicting faiths or segregate our species over trivial quibbles of ethnicity or personal belief. We are human beings, one species. Mankind, looking skywards driven by the knowledge that we are capable of so much more. The very galaxy itself can be ours. The Galaxy will be ours. That's what the Imperial Truth is, a core and absolute belief in mankind's ambition to defy our limitations. 

 

Personally I would hardly call him a hypocrite. He never struck me as 'encouraging' the priests of Mars but the priesthood of Mars is such a really self-contained aspect of the Imperium, or rather ally to the Imperium (as the Aquilla suggests) Not every tech-priest believes the Emperor is the Omnissiah and this is a hot topic for philosophical debate as seen in Mechanicum. That and, let's be honest, there's a reason why the Emperor has a need to make sure there's a fear for technology. Because people who don't keep their advancements in check can really make some catastrophic stuff in the pursuit of ingenuity. Example: The Men of Iron that enslaved humanity. Allowing the cult of Mars to exist and revere him as a God or Messiah just helps cover so many potential problems. Keeps them in check and makes sure no body goes over the deep end if he says that's off limits. Hell, I doubt he could stamp out the Machine Cult of Mars if he wanted to. Certainly not when he had only really a planet's worth of an army and the resources and foundries of Mars are absolutely essential to his warmachine.. So I'd say consider it more as a tolerating their self-contained  'faith' rather than actively encouraging it.

 

As a Word Bearer player, Lorgar got what was coming to him. He was actively spreading an entirely different credo that directly conflicts with the Imperial Truth. He's spreading it and filling human minds with this stuff by the millions when it's the exact opposite of what the Emperor wanted. Yeah, he needed a swift kick in the ass, even if the Emperor could have handled it a bit better.

 

The Emperor had his faults. That much is obvious. He allowed his greatest generals to mistake him for some paternal figure rather than their absolute master and allowed their petty pride and individuality to bring humanity to annihilation. But I believe in the Emperor's plan, his core vision was brilliant and Master of Mankind only proved that to me. 

 

Just my two cents.

To expand on this, I think he felt Lorgar was strong enough to handle the truth (that the Emperor isn't a God) and could learn and grow from it. Just turns out, he wasn't, he was spiritually weak, lacked internal fortitude and needed that crutch to get through his day.

[mc warhammer]

even if the numbers thing was the way the emp actually viewed the primarchs...that still makes sense to me.

 

father/son bonding with 20 beings he barely knows for what would have been a blink of the eye relative to the length of his life, is actually tougher for me to swallow.

 

especially for a man who (seemingly) hasn't had any parental experience for thousands of years.

 

maybe if we got the impression he was trying to create beings like himself so he wasn't so lonely? i could maybe buy into something like that

[Eddie Orlock]

... especially for a man who (seemingly) hasn't had any parental experience for thousands of years. ...

If we dig back to the old RoC stuff about the StarChild that I don't think was ever truly over turned, there's a wee bit in there about the Sensei being his genetic offspring. If this is true, he very likely 'got it on' in some fashion or another and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think that he may have participated in the rearing for a little bit.

[Kristoff]

even if the numbers thing was the way the emp actually viewed the primarchs...that still makes sense to me.

 

father/son bonding with 20 beings he barely knows for what would have been a blink of the eye relative to the length of his life, is actually tougher for me to swallow.

 

especially for a man who (seemingly) hasn't had any parental experience for thousands of years.

 

maybe if we got the impression he was trying to create beings like himself so he wasn't so lonely? i could maybe buy into something like that

Also add in the fact that he didn't raise them, and the time factor doesn't mean much.  They may be his sons by virtue of his creating their bodies, but he didn't train them or do anything to mold their psyches, so not his sons in soul.  Nor does he know (or trust) what changes the Warp did to them when they were taken from the Big E.

 

It doesn't take much to see why the Big E would not use names that would emotionally tie him to them from there.

[mc warhammer]

 

... especially for a man who (seemingly) hasn't had any parental experience for thousands of years. ...

If we dig back to the old RoC stuff about the StarChild that I don't think was ever truly over turned, there's a wee bit in there about the Sensei being his genetic offspring. If this is true, he very likely 'got it on' in some fashion or another and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think that he may have participated in the rearing for a little bit.

i'm not discounting the sensei stuff completely but also not including it in my personal hh head canon until it's referenced in the books

 

even then, who's to say he wasn't an absent father? just an immortal sperm bank

[mc warhammer]

 

even if the numbers thing was the way the emp actually viewed the primarchs...that still makes sense to me.

 

father/son bonding with 20 beings he barely knows for what would have been a blink of the eye relative to the length of his life, is actually tougher for me to swallow.

 

especially for a man who (seemingly) hasn't had any parental experience for thousands of years.

 

maybe if we got the impression he was trying to create beings like himself so he wasn't so lonely? i could maybe buy into something like that

Also add in the fact that he didn't raise them, and the time factor doesn't mean much. They may be his sons by virtue of his creating their bodies, but he didn't train them or do anything to mold their psyches, so not his sons in soul. Nor does he know (or trust) what changes the Warp did to them when they were taken from the Big E.

 

It doesn't take much to see why the Big E would not use names that would emotionally tie him to them from there.

even the 200 or so years with horus (i might be off there) is...what?...like 2 weeks? for a guy who's supposedly lived 40,000 years give or take

[Eddie Orlock]

'm not discounting the sensei stuff completely but also not including it in my personal hh head canon until it's referenced in the books

 

even then, who's to say he wasn't an absent father? just an immortal sperm bank

All fair points, it's precisely why I couched it as only a canon possibility and not canon fact.

 

Still, if we were to interpret the Emperor as vaguely sociopathic about some stuff to support his long range plans, I could see him having a couple families in the millennia prior to the primarch project as a kind of low risk dry run to practise the skills he'd need to bring his future generals on line.

[mc warhammer]

 

'm not discounting the sensei stuff completely but also not including it in my personal hh head canon until it's referenced in the books

 

even then, who's to say he wasn't an absent father? just an immortal sperm bank

All fair points, it's precisely why I couched it as only a canon possibility and not canon fact.

 

Still, if we were to interpret the Emperor as vaguely sociopathic about some stuff to support his long range plans, I could see him having a couple families in the millennia prior to the primarch project as a kind of low risk dry run to practise the skills he'd need to bring his future generals on line.

it's an interesting idea. did he have close relationships in his life span...and if he did, were they completely one sided?

 

the closest he seems to have had to a companion is malcador who does seem to speak about him with some affection.

[choppyred]

Because as I have already postulated on this thread The Emperor and Malcador are either the same being or at the very least the same type of being, mind blown huh?

[bluntblade]

 

 

even if the numbers thing was the way the emp actually viewed the primarchs...that still makes sense to me.

father/son bonding with 20 beings he barely knows for what would have been a blink of the eye relative to the length of his life, is actually tougher for me to swallow.

especially for a man who (seemingly) hasn't had any parental experience for thousands of years.

maybe if we got the impression he was trying to create beings like himself so he wasn't so lonely? i could maybe buy into something like that

Also add in the fact that he didn't raise them, and the time factor doesn't mean much. They may be his sons by virtue of his creating their bodies, but he didn't train them or do anything to mold their psyches, so not his sons in soul. Nor does he know (or trust) what changes the Warp did to them when they were taken from the Big E.

It doesn't take much to see why the Big E would not use names that would emotionally tie him to them from there.

even the 200 or so years with horus (i might be off there) is...what?...like 2 weeks? for a guy who's supposedly lived 40,000 years give or take

More like 50,000 if we assume 0 is thr BC/AD divide. Second millenium starts space exploration etc.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

even if the numbers thing was the way the emp actually viewed the primarchs...that still makes sense to me.

father/son bonding with 20 beings he barely knows for what would have been a blink of the eye relative to the length of his life, is actually tougher for me to swallow.

especially for a man who (seemingly) hasn't had any parental experience for thousands of years.

maybe if we got the impression he was trying to create beings like himself so he wasn't so lonely? i could maybe buy into something like that

Also add in the fact that he didn't raise them, and the time factor doesn't mean much. They may be his sons by virtue of his creating their bodies, but he didn't train them or do anything to mold their psyches, so not his sons in soul. Nor does he know (or trust) what changes the Warp did to them when they were taken from the Big E.

It doesn't take much to see why the Big E would not use names that would emotionally tie him to them from there.

even the 200 or so years with horus (i might be off there) is...what?...like 2 weeks? for a guy who's supposedly lived 40,000 years give or take

More like 50,000 if we assume 0 is thr BC/AD divide. Second millenium starts space exploration etc.

ha, i knew someone would pull me up on that

[bluntblade]

Pernickerty history student, at your service. The Emperor speaks of being born close to the first city (cities?) which throws the date back.

[mc warhammer]

Because as I have already postulated on this thread The Emperor and Malcador are either the same being or at the very least the same type of being, mind blown huh?

is half blown ok? i'm familiar with that theory and it has a lot of merit- that the emp could only be close to someone like himself

has anyone ever referred to the emperor as an "it" rather than "he"?

[bluntblade]

I never liked that theory. Malcador just seems far too human even when the narrator doesn't specify that he started out as a mere man

[Knight of the Raven]

I guess it's a case of Pinkie and the Brain. "One's a genius, the other's insane." And we all know which one wants to conquer the world galaxy.

[choppyred]

At the very start of MOM someone asks Valdor if Emps is human or if he even breaths so that is pretty close to an "it" moment (Valdor does not answer by the way.)

Emps appears as a giant golden warlord and in artwork towers over custodes so he is probably about the same size as a primarch, that does not sound like a he but an "it" unless you consider the geneticly modified warp infused giant beings known as primarchs as human. In one novel he may have said " everything floats down here!" which is very "it" . Of course the emps appearence seems to be a psychic glamour (seen through by Corax and Grammaticus) and talking of Grammaticus he recognizes emps as a perpetual can a perpetual realy be considered human? I don't know and it make my head hurt to think about it for to long, I think that in the comming novels we will get more clues and hints but I hope that it is never truly revealed.

[Kristoff]

I guess it's a case of Pinkie and the Brain. "One's a genius, the other's insane." And we all know which one wants to conquer the world galaxy.

The one who keeps trying the same thing over and over again, expecting the same result?

[Kinstryfe]

So reading thru the thread, the one thing that always seems to be understated about the Emperor and the Setting as a whole is the sheer chronological scale of it. For perspective, the 10,000 years between the crusade and the modern setting is the same time that passed between humans developing widespread agriculture and today. Now take into account that the Emperor (if he isn't something other than reincarnated shamans), is 5x that old, at least. Kudos for any writer being able to even conceptualize that kind of characterization. The HH series as a whole has repeated little tongue in cheek references to just how much knowledge was lost even by 30k times and it shows that The Emperor, powerful as he is portrayed, is still only playing with a fraction of human knowledge. The Thousand Sons keep a copy of Frankenstein in their research libraries. The works of Shakespire are celebrated...all three plays! The Emperor was not omnipotent, and it seems overlooked that he was enacting his great plan with the best (incomplete) knowledge he had.

 

He created 20 supermen to be his Generals, with a fraction of his power and attributes. Would he consider them offspring? To him, creating primarchs isn't very different to me painting that Baneblade that one time. It took a long time, a lot of effort, cost a bunch, and I have like 3 more I haven't had the patience to put together again. I like it, but I haven't named it and started a college fund for it. By the same token, he does address them at times by name, at times by designation, and you can't rule out that he certainly had a fondness for at least some of his creations. He spent 200 years with Horus and, if we assume that a being that old can process time in a rational comprehensible manner, it would at least foster a sense of familiarity, if not familial feelings. The same could be said of Magnus, who it's hinted knew the Emperor long before they met in person. At the same time, how long could he have known Alpharius(Omegon) before the Heresy occurred. There's no reason he couldn't have favorites among his experiments. In fact, his genuine like of the Custodes seems to make it more likely that he would.

 

The problem really stems from him not simply rebuking the notion of fatherhood to the Primarchs directly. Strangely, and possibly by design, almost every Primarch landed and was raised by a father figure, for good or bad, and grew quickly enough to basically skip their childhood. Intellectually they were geniuses and emotionally they were still largely children, a fact which has never been explained as being a product of engineering or of their travel thru the warp. Wouldn't it be ironic if the Emperor designed the Primarchs to age naturally to adulthood, gaining emotional growth and maturity in the process, and the greatest trick the warp gods played was making them into large children? This could actually explain why he treated the Primarchs so questionably in so many cases. He expected and assumed Lorgar was a grown man who could handle being taken down a notch for disobeying orders, and instead ended up embarrassing a superpowered 8 year old who assumed his daddy hated him after. Likewise Mortarion hated Him because he wanted to do it himself(!), and Perturabo was upset because he wasn't getting the emotional support he needed. So maybe the Emperor wasn't a failure but a genius with less knowledge than he thought, whose grand modeling project was stunted against design by the gods of the warp and made significantly more rebellious than designed. I kind of like thinking of it like that, as it means the Chaos gods were a lot more cunning than they are often portrayed...

 

Edit:couple breaks in the wall o text

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

Interesting perspective Kinstryfe, but it would have been easier to read if you had broken it up a bit.