The Emperor was wrong

[Blood Angel Scout]

Would say the sister of silence's PoV of the Emperor is pretty strong weight toward him being human, as no ability to project appearance differently.

 

Going by earlier scene with moment of revelation towards humanity, 8000 bc so 48,000 yr old, very possible to have had actual children over that time, maybe an earlier plan via seeding generations, hoping genetic inheritance/transfer but didn't work out as he planned, think this was part of the sensi/starchild concept, created sterile offspring.

 

Whether this is being back in some sense as a basis behind the origin of the pariah gene/creation of eventual blanks for the need in the webway war-genetic manipulation of certain blood lines is a possibility in this setting- but wouldn't be surprised that over 48K years, 38k at HH to be fair, the Emperor didn't have kids at some point...

[appiah4]

If the Emperor was wrong please explain Word Bearers?  40K is a mish mash of human history and satire.  It is openly critical of belief and what fanaticism entails, you may disagree with it, but it is what it is.  The Emperor is basically the embodiment of Renaissance ideals (reason, science, progress), and the Empire is a reversion to dark ages practices (scholasticism, mysticism and stagnation).  So yeah, in a way the Emperor was right - but the real question is did he really offer to replace faith with something better?  The irony lies in that the enlightened past version of the Empire of Man is also good at only one thing: killing all who disagree, which is itself a satire of the post-renaissance imperialism.

[slitth]

Master of Mankind does a wonderful job of explaining the Emperor's animosity towards religion. Explaining how chaos could take advantage of faith, insinuate itself and corrupt it. It shows how a person could fall to chaos without even knowing it.

 

It's a valid argument, but the biggest damn mistake he made.

 

Faith and religion is an inherent part of Human nature, the "Imperial Truth" was doomed to fail. If the big E had set himself up as a God-King from the start he'd of had far less problems.

 

Also, is he not a hypocrite? He humiliated Lorgar for worshipping him as a god yet accepted and even encouraged the priests of Mars to see him as their god.

 

I find this whole issue fascinating and one of the biggest plot holes of the series. The Emperor is so freaking old, knows Humanity, knows our history and still makes such a huge mistake in trying to suppress the human need for faith.

 

The Emperor made many mistakes, but he was also had a daunting task.

I believe that the emperor's biggest mistake was his inability to truly confer his vision to others.

Understandable given how much need to be done, and done is secret.

He relied a great deal on trust and faith.

 

He was not trying to remove faith or religion, because that impossible.

Faith is what you believe in, and does not have to have a divine figurehead.

Religion is a set of rules or guidelines for you believe.

When you remove the divine from faith, you remove the concept of gods or demons.

But you also move a lot of answers that the divine answers.

You remove comfort, certainty and purpose.

 

It forces you seek the answers, comfort, certainty and purpose from more logical sources.

And sometimes we do like what we find, fail to find it or fail to grasp it.

It leaves a vacuum. And nature hate vacuums.

So it's natural to fill it with something, and that something could be perceived as divine by the believer.

Be it chaos, the Emperor or something else.

 

The Emperor's mistake with Lorgar, was not to remove the divine from his faith.

But to leave the vacuum in Lorgar unfilled after he had remove the divine from vacuum Lorgar's world.

Something that chaos was eager to exploit.

[reckoning]

The Emperor made many mistakes, but he was also had a daunting task.

I believe that the emperor's biggest mistake was his inability to truly confer his vision to others.

Understandable given how much need to be done, and done is secret.

He relied a great deal on trust and faith.

 

He was not trying to remove faith or religion, because that impossible.

Faith is what you believe in, and does not have to have a divine figurehead.

Religion is a set of rules or guidelines for you believe.

When you remove the divine from faith, you remove the concept of gods or demons.

But you also move a lot of answers that the divine answers.

You remove comfort, certainty and purpose.

 

It forces you seek the answers, comfort, certainty and purpose from more logical sources.

And sometimes we do like what we find, fail to find it or fail to grasp it.

It leaves a vacuum. And nature hate vacuums.

So it's natural to fill it with something, and that something could be perceived as divine by the believer.

Be it chaos, the Emperor or something else.

 

The Emperor's mistake with Lorgar, was not to remove the divine from his faith.

But to leave the vacuum in Lorgar unfilled after he had remove the divine from vacuum Lorgar's world.

Something that chaos was eager to exploit.

That seems to be more Lorgar's mistake than the Emperor's. Not to excuse the Emperor, because he was certainly flawed. But he gave Lorgar a purpose, and all the tools to accomplish it.

 

Lorgar was the weakest of his sons.

[slitth]

 

That seems to be more Lorgar's mistake than the Emperor's. Not to excuse the Emperor, because he was certainly flawed. But he gave Lorgar a purpose, and all the tools to accomplish it.

 

Lorgar was the weakest of his sons.

 

 

Lorgar was raised on a world that was full of religion.

He was not made to understand that all his childhood teachings was wrong.

And then they finally took all that away, the Emperor did not take the time to make sure that Lorgar understood why.

Lorgar world view was broken and the Emperor did not help to rebuild it.

Lorgar was ordered back to the front-line with a broken heart, and the Emperor paid because of this.

[reckoning]

 

 

That seems to be more Lorgar's mistake than the Emperor's. Not to excuse the Emperor, because he was certainly flawed. But he gave Lorgar a purpose, and all the tools to accomplish it.

 

Lorgar was the weakest of his sons.

 

Lorgar was raised on a world that was full of religion.

He was not made to understand that all his childhood teachings was wrong.

And then they finally took all that away, the Emperor did not take the time to make sure that Lorgar understood why.

Lorgar world view was broken and the Emperor did not help to rebuild it.

Lorgar was ordered back to the front-line with a broken heart, and the Emperor paid because of this.

You haven't invalidated my claim. If anything, you've supported it.

 

Again, I'm not saying the Emperor was innocent in all of this. But it wasn't solely his fault either.

[choppyred]

Lorgar was a bio weapon engineered to lead the emperors armies. He had no need of religion, he was created to be conquering general at the head of mankinds galatic re-expansion. It is only because chaos messed with the primarchs  after it took them that some if not all of the primarchs seemed weak, in my opinion.

 I wonder what the pimarchs would have been like if they never went missing from the emperors gene labs? So yeah maybe the emperors failure was not recognising that the primachs needed to be treated differently than intended on creation since they were damaged goods.

[jeffersonian000]

It's still my contention that the Emperor did in fact intend for the actions of His sons, with the possible exception of Magnus, as each of His sons performed exactly as intended. It's a retroactive narrative, after all. As I stated before, the Emperor spent 38,000 years setting up a 10,000 year shot at the survival of humanity, and we have only witnessed that shot in progress from when He pulled the trigger in 30k to its potential arrival on target right now in the current setting. This means that all of His actions, especially the stupid ones, were intended.

 

SJ

[Sete]

I disagree. He tried to do the best he could with the information he had.

 

He knew he was going to be betrayed, but he didn't knew by whom.

 

After the Webway defeat, he knew he was not going to win, so his main focus was to not let chaos win. Did anything change since then?

 

Did he devise another plan?

[jeffersonian000]

I disagree. He tried to do the best he could with the information he had.

 

He knew he was going to be betrayed, but he didn't knew by whom.

 

After the Webway defeat, he knew he was not going to win, so his main focus was to not let chaos win. Did anything change since then?

 

Did he devise another plan?

We were given two potential outcomes to the future of humanity, neither of which lead to survival as a species. The Emperor planned out a route to survival that created a third option, which is what 40k is. I would say He succeeded in hitting the target, even if he was a bit left of the bullseye.

 

SJ

[slitth]

It's still my contention that the Emperor did in fact intend for the actions of His sons, with the possible exception of Magnus, as each of His sons performed exactly as intended. It's a retroactive narrative, after all. As I stated before, the Emperor spent 38,000 years setting up a 10,000 year shot at the survival of humanity, and we have only witnessed that shot in progress from when He pulled the trigger in 30k to its potential arrival on target right now in the current setting. This means that all of His actions, especially the stupid ones, were intended.

 

SJ

 

I don't believe so. The Emperor was not all knowing, it was more or less stated in "The Outcast Dead".

The Emperor has a incredible understanding of the big picture.

But all in all, he is still human. An incredible on, but still just a human.

 

And he made the primarchs from the human template, with is a flawed template.

This was not a mistake, the mistake was to overestimate his creations.

 

He know that they would be small piece on the board that would work against the plan.

He trusted that his primarchs would be able to find a destroy such small threats.

But Lorgar failed in this aspect, due to ignorance.

Lorgar had a serpent close to his heart and let it drip sweet poison in his ear.

And why should he, the poison took away some of the double, hurt and confusion that the Emperor left behind after Monarchia.

 

The Emperor should have realised that Lorgar was not strong enough to recover on this own.

Perhaps Lorgar should have be sent to be with one of this brothers for a while to rebuild his world view.

[JustinianTheGreat]

 

It's still my contention that the Emperor did in fact intend for the actions of His sons, with the possible exception of Magnus, as each of His sons performed exactly as intended. It's a retroactive narrative, after all. As I stated before, the Emperor spent 38,000 years setting up a 10,000 year shot at the survival of humanity, and we have only witnessed that shot in progress from when He pulled the trigger in 30k to its potential arrival on target right now in the current setting. This means that all of His actions, especially the stupid ones, were intended.

 

SJ

 

I don't believe so. The Emperor was not all knowing, it was more or less stated in "The Outcast Dead".

The Emperor has a incredible understanding of the big picture.

But all in all, he is still human. An incredible on, but still just a human.

 

And he made the primarchs from the human template, with is a flawed template.

This was not a mistake, the mistake was to overestimate his creations.

 

He know that they would be small piece on the board that would work against the plan.

He trusted that his primarchs would be able to find a destroy such small threats.

But Lorgar failed in this aspect, due to ignorance.

Lorgar had a serpent close to his heart and let it drip sweet poison in his ear.

And why should he, the poison took away some of the double, hurt and confusion that the Emperor left behind after Monarchia.

 

The Emperor should have realised that Lorgar was not strong enough to recover on this own.

Perhaps Lorgar should have be sent to be with one of this brothers for a while to rebuild his world view.

 

 

 

1) From a literary point of view, i think it's the exact opposite. It wasn't Lorgar that failed, it was the Emperor. By treating his sons like machines & tools instead of sons. The mistakes of Lorgar & Magnus & even Horus would have never happened if E had a) empathy and b ) a proactive plan to "parenting" by teaching: first by example, but then by instilling trust & confidence in his sons in gentle but firm guidance- like any real father worth his salt would.

 

In Master of Mankind he comes off as completely cold, calculating & with completely 0% empathy - a complete psychopath by our own day to day standards. Brilliant & powerful beyond reckoning, but deranged in his variance from true humanity. When he talks about his sons as numbers, how could they not rebel against him. That's what I got from that book. The author mentions the shear arrogance of his plans numerous times too throughout.

 

The Horus Heresy is so appealing because it is a timeless, age-old narrative set in a new & fantastic setting. It is the familiar narrative of an un-loving, bad, but brilliant father and his orphaned, bitter sons. Then sprinkle in some sibling rivalry. It is a narrative modern people are very familiar with, considering the number of broken homes we grow up in. It is written for us.

 

2) The "Imperial Truth" idea only makes sense in light of the previous "Dark Age of Technology". It was not a reaction to religion as we know it now per se, at least not directly. It was a heavy handed, hyper arrogant reaction to the daemon worshipping, psychic abomination cults of humanities' past which had brought about so much ruination.

 

3) I agree that big E was wrong about religion. I don't think BL will ever answer this directly - it's purposefully left for speculation. But they have started introducing this point of view purposefully in the Oll Parson line of stories that began with the Calth book. He's a non-psychic perpetual who has met the emperor and turned down working with him because he disagreed with his PoV. He is self proclaimed as belonging to the old faith - meaning prior to the Dark Age - and calls it "Catheric" which is plainly a BL play on the word Catholic (which in turn means universal in greek if anyone is wondering). One of the guardsman characters from the Alpha Legion book also claims to be Catheric so it's recurring. This is arguably another mistake of big E, thinking he had/could snuff that out. Personally, as religious person i'm glad to see both sides of the future "history" played out.

 

It's hinted in some fluff that Oll Parson is somehow going to save the Emperor after Horus smites him - so there could be a huge tie in to this debate eventually.

 

4) It is not "any" belief that fuels chaos. This is pretty clear from the different novels. For example, Oll says that before the big E, it was faith that helped people push back the daemons. This is amidst time flashbacks to WWI etc. so it's very plainly talking about faith as we know it.

 

You can see the same concept & tone from many of the Grey Knight novels (at least from the good authors). It is not uncontrolled rage that fuels them, but prayerful obedience, focus, discipline, brotherhood, self sacrifice...in short, virtue.

 

However, the faith of a fool, or a morally weak person can be manipulated & perverted into heresy - just as in real life when their are huge hypocrites etc.

 

It is not emotion alone that fuels chaos I would argue - although it does seem that maybe the big E (mistakenly?) thought this. It is vice. Any philosopher will tell you that courage is not the same as aggression. Mercy is not wallowing in despair. Love is not just pleasure. And Wisdom is not just knowledge. These are core precepts of civilization.

 

Look at the Eldar & the Ynarri. They long for the days of the past when they could express emotion - in moderation - without fear. They've lost that right because of Slaanesh. Their over indulgence ruined it.

[Ascanius]

 

2) The "Imperial Truth" idea only makes sense in light of the previous "Dark Age of Technology". It was not a reaction to religion as we know it now per se, at least not directly. It was a heavy handed, hyper arrogant reaction to the daemon worshipping, psychic abomination cults of humanities' past which had brought about so much ruination.

 

I think, here, you actually mean "Old Night", rather than "the Dark Age of Technology", but I agree with your point. The Emperor appears to believe that stamping out religious belief will mean the elimination of the threat of the Warp.

[Eddie Orlock]

This means that all of His actions, especially the stupid ones, were intended.

 

SJ

Indeed.

 

... The qualities of compassion and personal loyalty make it very difficult for the Emperor to kill his old friend - to do so and endure remorse would only drive him further toward bitterness and eventually to the same fate as Horus. It appears the Emperor cannot win - if he kills his friend he begins to tread the same path that will doom himself and the whole of humanity.

 

As the two fight their battle, these realisations whirl around the Emperor's mind. As this happens the Emperor deliberately casts aside part of his soul and rejects part of his humanity. As compassion and personal loyalty leave him he plunges his sword in to Horus; breast and slays his old friend - perhaps enduring for the last time the emotion of regret for Horus and for his own lost humanity. The Emperor, mortally wounded, prepares to retire to his life-sustaining throne machine knowing that he must face thousands of years of endeavour without joy.

 

By casting aside his humanity the Emperor has done three things.

 

1. He has prepared himself so that he can cope with the future battle against Chaos ...

 

2. He has turned loose a small independent soul composed of hope, personal loyalty, compassion etc. ... This is the core of the Star Child.

 

3. He has weakened his own soul ...

 

The Emperor has taken a great gamble with the future of mankind, but he really has no choice.

...

The Star Child will eventually gain awareness and become a force for good. ... it could even find a way to weaken the other Powers by turning men away from their worship, eradicating the danger of chaos ...

 

As ripped from a setting design document. So called 'word of god' that the Emperor did very much care and feel compassion for his created son. He may have been terrible at showing though.

 

As created there has always been hope for the good end woven into the very fabric of the creation. Tragic sacrifice from, and desperate gambit by, the Emperor to be sure, but his defeat was never inevitable. Victory just requires that good people do good.

 

The Emperor protects, but we must also protect the Emperor.

[Ascanius]

It's an open question as to whether or not any of that applies to the game-as-currently-published, though. Not everything that's been kicked to the kerb, just like half-Eldar Librarians have, has been as explicitly retconned out of the game as being no longer canon, like half-Eldar Librarians have.

 

For one thing, the fact that it refers to Horus as the Emperor's "old friend" means it comes from a time when the thinking about the Horus Heresy was quite different from what we have now.