The Emperor was wrong

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Its very easy to suppress belief. Look at church participation statistics and self-reporting atheists across the western world. Richer societies, less religious, its a law of nature. 

 

Edit: Granted this means the Imperium should be a turbo religious society, as it is in 40k. Which makes the portrayal of human life still being pretty crap during the great crusade all the more silly. 

 

You equate belief with religion.

[1ncarnadine]

What I can not fathom, may be revealed in later novels perhaps, why the Emperor would chose the least effective option. Suppressing faith is an impossible feat, our history teaches that.

 

It's something that may never really be touched on, but I have my own ideas. Keep in mind history, though. It was brought up at one of the BL author seminars from the '17 Weekender that this may not be the Emperor's first go-around with trying to save humanity from Chaos. It may be his last, though, and certainly his largest. What if the Roman Empire was a failed attempt? The Renaissance? The World Wars? Maybe in the Warhammer universe, he's trying to fight it in our modern age (and without getting too political on these forums, I don't feel that would be going very well)? Maybe he tried religion, or some version of himself did. As with anything related to the Emperor, it's unknowable, but it's not like we can't come to relatively satisfying answers on our own. 

 

 

The Imperial Truth does feed chaos. All belief feeds chaos. Even stuff like luck you mentioned, feeds chaos. Its part of the 40k universe. 

 

Yup. If it's human suffering, it's empowering the gods in the warp.

[Icarus1138]

The problem with these theories is that they run on assumptions that are not factual. Gods and religion are merely simplistic tools to explain phenomenons we do not comprehend. It suppresses the need for knowledge, logic and in the end critical thinking.

 

In that sense, the Emperor is no more a God than the Chaos Gods. They are simple entities that are currently unknowable, in a universe we know nothing of the founding or origins nor the extent of it's internal dynamics. We do not know it's history in any meaningful way. All we know, dispite the thousands of pages written on the subject, is conjecture and hearsay. All of it.

 

The Emperor's goal is not to eradicate the chaos gods by making humanity faithless. It is increase humanity's resistance to the corruption, and bring down what is fed to the warp to a minimum output. And to do that, you have to get rid of the easy road to enlightenment - make a race that wields knowledge, and can think for itself and sustain a healthy sceptiscism along with mastery of emotions.  Dispite all their claims, the denizens of the warp do not manifest on their own, they need willing participants, and to appear as gods is the easiest way to obtien compliance (THE PUNTS!) They have proven themselves vulnerable to their own failings.

 

I haven't seen the setting present reason as any kind of counter to the warp. I also encourage anyone who thinks that "Gods and religion are merely a simplistic tool to explain phenomenons we do not comprehend" to consider religion from an anthropological, ethical, historical, philosophical, or psychological perspective. There's quite a lot more to them.

 

I think the main point here is that from what we can tell, the Chaos gods are fed by emotion, and possibly action. The Emperor's belief (ha) that faith makes it worse seems to only be coming from his viewpoint. It's his opinion, basically. It's an informed opinion! But I haven't seen that established by the setting. Please give me a citation if I missed something though.

 

As A D-B mentioned, we could assume that something about faith just makes those emotions and actions worse in a "feeds the warp" way. If so, I wonder whether faith would simply make it worse, or would rather amplify the effect of said emotion or action. If it's the latter, that might explain why demons are driven off by faith in the Emperor. It also opens the possibility of any faith that is opposed to the nature of Chaos to have the same effect. Would a dedicated Taoist be able to banish a demon of Tzeentch by accepting the flow of events and the Tao rather than fighting to scheme and change fate? Would a devout Buddhist's denial of desire repel Slaneeshi magic, or a Christian ascetic's refusal to fight stymie a Bloodletter?

 

Probably not. It'd be cool though.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Its very easy to suppress belief. Look at church participation statistics and self-reporting atheists across the western world. Richer societies, less religious, its a law of nature. 

 

Edit: Granted this means the Imperium should be a turbo religious society, as it is in 40k. Which makes the portrayal of human life still being pretty crap during the great crusade all the more silly. 

 

You equate belief with religion.

 

 

Nope, specifically mentioned self reporting atheists in my post. 

[Indefragable]

 

The problem with these theories is that they run on assumptions that are not factual. Gods and religion are merely simplistic tools to explain phenomenons we do not comprehend. It suppresses the need for knowledge, logic and in the end critical thinking.

 

In that sense, the Emperor is no more a God than the Chaos Gods. They are simple entities that are currently unknowable, in a universe we know nothing of the founding or origins nor the extent of it's internal dynamics. We do not know it's history in any meaningful way. All we know, dispite the thousands of pages written on the subject, is conjecture and hearsay. All of it.

 

The Emperor's goal is not to eradicate the chaos gods by making humanity faithless. It is increase humanity's resistance to the corruption, and bring down what is fed to the warp to a minimum output. And to do that, you have to get rid of the easy road to enlightenment - make a race that wields knowledge, and can think for itself and sustain a healthy sceptiscism along with mastery of emotions.  Dispite all their claims, the denizens of the warp do not manifest on their own, they need willing participants, and to appear as gods is the easiest way to obtien compliance (THE PUNTS!) They have proven themselves vulnerable to their own failings.

 

I haven't seen the setting present reason as any kind of counter to the warp. I also encourage anyone who thinks that "Gods and religion are merely a simplistic tool to explain phenomenons we do not comprehend" to consider religion from an anthropological, ethical, historical, philosophical, or psychological perspective. There's quite a lot more to them.

 

I think the main point here is that from what we can tell, the Chaos gods are fed by emotion, and possibly action. The Emperor's belief (ha) that faith makes it worse seems to only be coming from his viewpoint. It's his opinion, basically. It's an informed opinion! But I haven't seen that established by the setting. Please give me a citation if I missed something though.

 

As A D-B mentioned, we could assume that something about faith just makes those emotions and actions worse in a "feeds the warp" way. If so, I wonder whether faith would simply make it worse, or would rather amplify the effect of said emotion or action. If it's the latter, that might explain why demons are driven off by faith in the Emperor. It also opens the possibility of any faith that is opposed to the nature of Chaos to have the same effect. Would a dedicated Taoist be able to banish a demon of Tzeentch by accepting the flow of events and the Tao rather than fighting to scheme and change fate? Would a devout Buddhist's denial of desire repel Slaneeshi magic, or a Christian ascetic's refusal to fight stymie a Bloodletter?

 

Probably not. It'd be cool though.

 

 

What makes the most sense to me is the bureaucratic approach: it's just plain easier to lump everything together (and then wipe it out). Binary, if you will: you're either 0 religion or 1 religion. And the Admech speak in binary, therefore they are exempt. Or something. I mean, even just adding an extra line for "religious preference" on the Imperial Census form costs as much as an entire XXI Legion when multiplied by several hundred trillion copies (not to mention postage and handling).

 

Does a pacifistic religion on a backwater world feed the chaos gods? Who knows, and who is going to take the time to figure it out? Ain't nobody got time for that! There's a galaxy to be a-conquerin' and a humanity to get ascendin'! We're already late for the Webway, so either capitulate and get in line or get the hell non-dogmatic-place-of-suffering out of the way. Wipe out every trace of religious belief on the offchance they all maybe somehow do something bad? Good enough for government work. 

[Memento Of Prospero]

@Icarus1138

 

I am well aware of the value of religion in the shaping of modern society, but that's off topic, it's irrelevant to the problem at hand. It's a tool to control the masses, and it possessed all those qualities. Now education serves that same purpose, in a multi-cultural world where religions falter. We are talking about 40k, a stage in humanity's evolution where it that same old tool is seen as outdated by the Emperor. That's where I draw the parallel.

 

It's not about making humanity not generate warp energy, but make it less corruptible. In the old fluff, the Emperor's goal was to shield humanity from the warp, making it immune to it's influence.

 

That is not the same as getting rid of it, as it probably cannot be done (speculation). Once humanity cannot be touched, the chaos gods become powerless to act, regardless of the fact that they are still being fed by emotion. This also explains why the Emperor is hellbent on Xenocides. It removes corruptible elements from the equation.

[Olis]

I'm just gunna quote Noctus for truth here:

 

the idea that religion is ingrained in our being is an entirely subjective point of view that could potentially delve into a topic that could easily get this entire thread melta blasted in a heartbeat.

 

Take care with this discussion, brothers. Others like it have crossed the Rubicon far too easily and have been melta'd for it. Carry on as you are, but I'll be keeping an eye on things.

[Augustus]

The Emperor is never wrong. He is always right. When he is wrong he actually right. Human language cannot accurately describe it for humans to understand. Unless he is left.

[MrDarth151]

Master of Mankind does a wonderful job of explaining the Emperor's animosity towards religion. Explaining how chaos could take advantage of faith, insinuate itself and corrupt it. It shows how a person could fall to chaos without even knowing it.

 

It's a valid argument, but the biggest damn mistake he made.

 

Faith and religion is an inherent part of Human nature, the "Imperial Truth" was doomed to fail. If the big E had set himself up as a God-King from the start he'd of had far less problems.

 

Also, is he not a hypocrite? He humiliated Lorgar for worshipping him as a god yet accepted and even encouraged the priests of Mars to see him as their god.

 

I find this whole issue fascinating and one of the biggest plot holes of the series. The Emperor is so freaking old, knows Humanity, knows our history and still makes such a huge mistake in trying to suppress the human need for faith.

 

The Imperial Truth was doomed to fail, yes, but not because faith and religion are inherent part of Human nature.

 

It was doomed to fail, because the man trying to implement it was a moron who thought walking around as three meter tall golden giant of perfection that compels people to doing what he wants by just standing in their presence and builds continent sized palaces for himself would somehow compel people to secularism in a world where everything is :cuss (except Ultramar) and you've just left a massive void in terms of comfort for the unfortunate.

 

I mean, the captain of his personal guard accuses people of apostasy when they disobey him. Might as well call him God-Emperor already, and call it day. 

 

 

 

What I can not fathom, may be revealed in later novels perhaps, why the Emperor would chose the least effective option. Suppressing faith is an impossible feat, our history teaches that.

 

 

Because as written by BL, The Emperor of Mankind is exceedingly mediocre ruler.

 

The Emperor's competence is an informed quality. He doesn't present it, unless it comes to psychic powers or bio-engineering. It borders character assassination at times.

 

There is no character in the fluff that suffered more blows to his credibility thanks to HH series than The Emperor of Mankind. Period.

[Icarus1138]

@Icarus1138

 

I am well aware of the value of religion in the shaping of modern society, but that's off topic, it's irrelevant to the problem at hand. It's a tool to control the masses, and it possessed all those qualities. Now education serves that same purpose, in a multi-cultural world where religions falter. We are talking about 40k, a stage in humanity's evolution where it that same old tool is seen as outdated by the Emperor. That's where I draw the parallel.

 

It's not about making humanity not generate warp energy, but make it less corruptible. In the old fluff, the Emperor's goal was to shield humanity from the warp, making it immune to it's influence.

 

That is not the same as getting rid of it, as it probably cannot be done (speculation). Once humanity cannot be touched, the chaos gods become powerless to act, regardless of the fact that they are still being fed by emotion. This also explains why the Emperor is hellbent on Xenocides. It removes corruptible elements from the equation.

 

The topic is whether the Emperor made a mistake in banning religion and supernatural faith. Pointing out that religion has components other than "Why is there a sun?" is relevant to that discussion, I think.

 

How does banning faith in the divine or supernatural prevent humanity from being touched by the warp?

[MrDarth151]

 

How does banning faith in the divine or supernatural prevent humanity from being touched by the warp?

 

 

In theory, it leaves less possible avenues into one's soul for the warp denizens to use.

 

In practice, you would need to actually enforce said ban with any degree of effectiveness and BL and GW have made Chaos corruption so easy to achieve over the years that the idea was made laughable. So it doesn't actually do that.

[Augustus]

Yeah. It seems ridiculously easy for corruption to happen in BL books. Maybe all of those worlds that befall to such a fate are in "warp hotspots" or something.

[Xisor]

 

 

 

 

The problem with these theories is that they run on assumptions that are not factual. Gods and religion are merely simplistic tools to explain phenomenons we do not comprehend. It suppresses the need for knowledge, logic and in the end critical thinking.

 

In that sense, the Emperor is no more a God than the Chaos Gods. They are simple entities that are currently unknowable, in a universe we know nothing of the founding or origins nor the extent of it's internal dynamics. We do not know it's history in any meaningful way. All we know, dispite the thousands of pages written on the subject, is conjecture and hearsay. All of it.

 

The Emperor's goal is not to eradicate the chaos gods by making humanity faithless. It is increase humanity's resistance to the corruption, and bring down what is fed to the warp to a minimum output. And to do that, you have to get rid of the easy road to enlightenment - make a race that wields knowledge, and can think for itself and sustain a healthy sceptiscism along with mastery of emotions. Dispite all their claims, the denizens of the warp do not manifest on their own, they need willing participants, and to appear as gods is the easiest way to obtien compliance (THE PUNTS!) They have proven themselves vulnerable to their own failings.

I haven't seen the setting present reason as any kind of counter to the warp. I also encourage anyone who thinks that "Gods and religion are merely a simplistic tool to explain phenomenons we do not comprehend" to consider religion from an anthropological, ethical, historical, philosophical, or psychological perspective. There's quite a lot more to them.

 

I think the main point here is that from what we can tell, the Chaos gods are fed by emotion, and possibly action. The Emperor's belief (ha) that faith makes it worse seems to only be coming from his viewpoint. It's his opinion, basically. It's an informed opinion! But I haven't seen that established by the setting. Please give me a citation if I missed something though.

 

As A D-B mentioned, we could assume that something about faith just makes those emotions and actions worse in a "feeds the warp" way. If so, I wonder whether faith would simply make it worse, or would rather amplify the effect of said emotion or action. If it's the latter, that might explain why demons are driven off by faith in the Emperor. It also opens the possibility of any faith that is opposed to the nature of Chaos to have the same effect. Would a dedicated Taoist be able to banish a demon of Tzeentch by accepting the flow of events and the Tao rather than fighting to scheme and change fate? Would a devout Buddhist's denial of desire repel Slaneeshi magic, or a Christian ascetic's refusal to fight stymie a Bloodletter?

 

Probably not. It'd be cool though.

What makes the most sense to me is the bureaucratic approach: it's just plain easier to lump everything together (and then wipe it out). Binary, if you will: you're either 0 religion or 1 religion. And the Admech speak in binary, therefore they are exempt. Or something. I mean, even just adding an extra line for "religious preference" on the Imperial Census form costs as much as an entire XXI Legion when multiplied by several hundred trillion copies (not to mention postage and handling).

 

Does a pacifistic religion on a backwater world feed the chaos gods? Who knows, and who is going to take the time to figure it out? Ain't nobody got time for that! There's a galaxy to be a-conquerin' and a humanity to get ascendin'! We're already late for the Webway, so either capitulate and get in line or get the hell non-dogmatic-place-of-suffering out of the way. Wipe out every trace of religious belief on the offchance they all maybe somehow do something bad? Good enough for government work.

If anyone can be bothered (and it's recommended), look up MvS on Warseer. Some of the best online discourse I've seen, handily from the author of the latter 3 "Liber Chaotica" books.

 

Otherwise: I'm deeply enamoured with the idea of the bureaucratic approach. The Emperor might have vaunted ideals, but he's still restricted by practical necessity and... "realpolitik". It's both laughable and deeply plausible. Real world horror. It's classic 40k.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

 

The problem with these theories is that they run on assumptions that are not factual. Gods and religion are merely simplistic tools to explain phenomenons we do not comprehend. It suppresses the need for knowledge, logic and in the end critical thinking.

 

In that sense, the Emperor is no more a God than the Chaos Gods. They are simple entities that are currently unknowable, in a universe we know nothing of the founding or origins nor the extent of it's internal dynamics. We do not know it's history in any meaningful way. All we know, dispite the thousands of pages written on the subject, is conjecture and hearsay. All of it.

 

The Emperor's goal is not to eradicate the chaos gods by making humanity faithless. It is increase humanity's resistance to the corruption, and bring down what is fed to the warp to a minimum output. And to do that, you have to get rid of the easy road to enlightenment - make a race that wields knowledge, and can think for itself and sustain a healthy sceptiscism along with mastery of emotions. Dispite all their claims, the denizens of the warp do not manifest on their own, they need willing participants, and to appear as gods is the easiest way to obtien compliance (THE PUNTS!) They have proven themselves vulnerable to their own failings.

I haven't seen the setting present reason as any kind of counter to the warp. I also encourage anyone who thinks that "Gods and religion are merely a simplistic tool to explain phenomenons we do not comprehend" to consider religion from an anthropological, ethical, historical, philosophical, or psychological perspective. There's quite a lot more to them.

 

I think the main point here is that from what we can tell, the Chaos gods are fed by emotion, and possibly action. The Emperor's belief (ha) that faith makes it worse seems to only be coming from his viewpoint. It's his opinion, basically. It's an informed opinion! But I haven't seen that established by the setting. Please give me a citation if I missed something though.

 

As A D-B mentioned, we could assume that something about faith just makes those emotions and actions worse in a "feeds the warp" way. If so, I wonder whether faith would simply make it worse, or would rather amplify the effect of said emotion or action. If it's the latter, that might explain why demons are driven off by faith in the Emperor. It also opens the possibility of any faith that is opposed to the nature of Chaos to have the same effect. Would a dedicated Taoist be able to banish a demon of Tzeentch by accepting the flow of events and the Tao rather than fighting to scheme and change fate? Would a devout Buddhist's denial of desire repel Slaneeshi magic, or a Christian ascetic's refusal to fight stymie a Bloodletter?

 

Probably not. It'd be cool though.

What makes the most sense to me is the bureaucratic approach: it's just plain easier to lump everything together (and then wipe it out). Binary, if you will: you're either 0 religion or 1 religion. And the Admech speak in binary, therefore they are exempt. Or something. I mean, even just adding an extra line for "religious preference" on the Imperial Census form costs as much as an entire XXI Legion when multiplied by several hundred trillion copies (not to mention postage and handling).

 

Does a pacifistic religion on a backwater world feed the chaos gods? Who knows, and who is going to take the time to figure it out? Ain't nobody got time for that! There's a galaxy to be a-conquerin' and a humanity to get ascendin'! We're already late for the Webway, so either capitulate and get in line or get the hell non-dogmatic-place-of-suffering out of the way. Wipe out every trace of religious belief on the offchance they all maybe somehow do something bad? Good enough for government work.

If anyone can be bothered (and it's recommended), look up MvS on Warseer. Some of the best online discourse I've seen, handily from the author of the latter 3 "Liber Chaotica" books.

 

Otherwise: I'm deeply enamoured with the idea of the bureaucratic approach. The Emperor might have vaunted ideals, but he's still restricted by practical necessity and... "realpolitik". It's both laughable and deeply plausible. Real world horror. It's classic 40k.

Wrote the OOP Battle for Armageddon book, as well. That only way to get your hands on MvS work is to be a Russian speaking ePirate, fabulously wealthy, or friends with a long beard. Such a great contributor to the lore.

[Brother Tyler]

While the source for this discussion is lore that has appeared in Black Library novels, it is not an issue that is about Black Library novels. This is an issue about the setting as a whole.

 

So I'm moving it to Amicus Aedes.

[Xenith]

 

Also, is he not a hypocrite? He humiliated Lorgar for worshipping him as a god yet accepted and even encouraged the priests of Mars to see him as their god.

 

No, He humiliated Lorgar because his religious nonsense and temple building was slowing down progress of the crusade. His religion was getting in the way of his job, so his boss disciplined him.

 

I think you'll find that the Emperor was extremely tolerant of...wayward practices...among his sons, as long as they prosecuted the crusade as fast and as efficiently as expected.

[A D-B]

 

If anyone can be bothered (and it's recommended), look up MvS on Warseer. Some of the best online discourse I've seen, handily from the author of the latter 3 "Liber Chaotica" books.

 

Otherwise: I'm deeply enamoured with the idea of the bureaucratic approach. The Emperor might have vaunted ideals, but he's still restricted by practical necessity and... "realpolitik". It's both laughable and deeply plausible. Real world horror. It's classic 40k.

 

You totally get it. 

 

Incidentally, MvS is one of the Ezekarion, what we jokingly call my circle of test readers, and he proofed (and loved) The Master of Mankind. Like I said, that book went through a lot of deeply entrenched IP/lore people. Some inside the company, some through contacts and good fortune outside the company. MvS has been one of my test readers for a few years now.

 

 

 

Wrote the OOP Battle for Armageddon book, as well. That only way to get your hands on MvS work is to be a Russian speaking ePirate, fabulously wealthy, or friends with a long beard. Such a great contributor to the lore.

 

He's the freaking man, no question, and one of the most genuinely decent human beings I know.

[choppyred]

I think that the word faith here is being misused as everybody has faith in somthing, for example everytime you sit on a chair you have faith that it will not colapse. In my eyes big E is not against faith he is for faith, faith in the imperial truth, faith in the right of mankind to rule the stars etc. What emps is against is organised religion which can be led astray by one or a small group of people to the worship of chaos which I do not think strengthens chaos as they get their power from emotion not worship, but it does weaken the human race and opens them up to chaos influence in the context of 30K and 40k.

[Xenith]

I think that the word faith here is being misused as everybody has faith in somthing, for example everytime you sit on a chair you have faith that it will not colapse.

 

Chairs have been thoroughly scientifically tested and engineered so that they do no collapse. That millions upon millions of people sit in chairs that do not collapse every day is the proof that denies faith.

 

Big E / The Imperial Truth was the truth that Mankind is in control of it's own destiny, both on a personal and galactic scale, and no longer needed to pray to obscene gods in the belief that they were not in control of their own fates. 

 

Now..."The Emperor protects". It's sick irony.

 

He has become the very god people deliver themselves into his hands, that they think will save them from oblivion. And it's especially Ironic as this faith and worship made him a god. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Let's just skip the edge lord 'gotcha' semantics and assume these words are synonymous. We don't need to hash out the definitions of faith, belief, religion, atheism, deities, on and on. It's a fundamental fact of the 40k universe, as observable and testable as gravity, any religious mental activity cause a psychic reaction in the warp that attracts malignant attention like insects to light. So prayers, blessings, hymns all have actual, physical effects in the 40k universe.

[HeritorA]

1) Emperor went to being a God in the human society. He went to that status against his own will but due to his ambitions for the glory of humanity. Humanity - which he wanted to save by removing the religion from equation. By creating the Webway and removing the Warp, by doing pagan  and atheistic conglomerate of universal proportions - he planned to make humanity the best. As a direct result we have the paradox in itself. It's contradicts it's own options in the equation.

It was a dream of utopia which was a despotia during the making and a tyranny as a result of foreshadowed events.

2) Richer societies, less religious, its a law of nature. Not so. It's 50/50 - richer society doesn't mean that 'top' or downgraded classes forget about religion or ignore it. And vise versa.

[Indefragable]

 

EDIT: walls of text you hopefully already read

Otherwise: I'm deeply enamoured with the idea of the bureaucratic approach. The Emperor might have vaunted ideals, but he's still restricted by practical necessity and... "realpolitik". It's both laughable and deeply plausible. Real world horror. It's classic 40k.

 

 

Why do you think so many planets fell out of compliance? Because they had to stand in line at the :cuss -in' RMV to register their planets with the Imperium. Selling your soul to a chaotic god sounds great in comparison. 

[choppyred]

The point I was trying to make is that big E is not against faith but religion, the chair is just an example one which you made well with your counter arguements whay do we have faith in chairs because they have been  thoroughly scientifically tested and engineered so that they do no collapse? The answer is yes in your example your faith in the chair comes from it being tested and engineered. But what if one of the scientists or engineers did their job wrong? You have faith that they didn't is the answer, and the fact that you have probably sat on a chair thousands of times in your life without it colapsing so you have faith based on experiance, faith is just trusting somthing that you personaly have no control over.

So my point is that Emps wants people to have faith in him and his crusade, so using your example they can have faith in him because his warriors have been scientifically tested and engineered to not fail in their task and they also have faith based on experiance as the Emperor united Tera just like he said he is going to unitethe universe under mankinds rule.

 Your final point that the Imperial Truth is that mankind is in charge of it's own destiny, could mankind have unified tera and started the great crusade without E money and his astartes? Because if not it is the Emperor and his Astartes who are in charge of mankinds destiny.

[HeritorA]

EDIT: walls of text you hopefully already read

Otherwise: I'm deeply enamoured with the idea of the bureaucratic approach. The Emperor might have vaunted ideals, but he's still restricted by practical necessity and... "realpolitik". It's both laughable and deeply plausible. Real world horror. It's classic 40k.

Why do you think so many planets fell out of compliance? Because they had to stand in line at the -in' RMV to register their planets with the Imperium. Selling your soul to a chaotic god sounds great in comparison.

They are both horrible choices in retrospective. NO laugh and joy in W30K

[Lay]

Iirc one of the HH Forge World books describes that anti-religious sentiments and persecution ran rampant after the Age of Strife. The anti-religious angle of the Imperial truth may have simply been an attempt to capitalise on that.