The Emperor was wrong

[choppyred]

Let's just skip the edge lord 'gotcha' semantics and assume these words are synonymous. We don't need to hash out the definitions of faith, belief, religion, atheism, deities, on and on. It's a fundamental fact of the 40k universe, as observable and testable as gravity, any religious mental activity cause a psychic reaction in the warp that attracts malignant attention like insects to light. So prayers, blessings, hymns all have actual, physical effects in the 40k universe.

Agree but the Emps is against religion not faith because it is faith in the imperial truth that drives the crusade.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Let's just skip the edge lord 'gotcha' semantics and assume these words are synonymous. We don't need to hash out the definitions of faith, belief, religion, atheism, deities, on and on. It's a fundamental fact of the 40k universe, as observable and testable as gravity, any religious mental activity cause a psychic reaction in the warp that attracts malignant attention like insects to light. So prayers, blessings, hymns all have actual, physical effects in the 40k universe.

Agree but the Emps is against religion not faith because it is faith in the imperial truth that drives the crusade.

That's fine, but it's the semantics I'm talking about. Let's assume we're not including secular faith.

[MrDarth151]

Let's just skip the edge lord 'gotcha' semantics and assume these words are synonymous. We don't need to hash out the definitions of faith, belief, religion, atheism, deities, on and on. It's a fundamental fact of the 40k universe, as observable and testable as gravity, any religious mental activity cause a psychic reaction in the warp that attracts malignant attention like insects to light. So prayers, blessings, hymns all have actual, physical effects in the 40k universe.

 

Except, perhaps ironically, the faith in the God-Emperor.

 

 

 

Also, is he not a hypocrite? He humiliated Lorgar for worshipping him as a god yet accepted and even encouraged the priests of Mars to see him as their god.

 

No, He humiliated Lorgar because his religious nonsense and temple building was slowing down progress of the crusade. His religion was getting in the way of his job, so his boss disciplined him.

 

I think you'll find that the Emperor was extremely tolerant of...wayward practices...among his sons, as long as they prosecuted the crusade as fast and as efficiently as expected.

 

 

Which in itself is odd, as Master of Mankind pushes the theme of control in Emperor's plans to a rather high degree. One would think that the importance of Astartes' role in the galactic scale of things would imply a greater degree of control on Emperor's part, not a lesser one.

[Lexington]

It's a fundamental fact of the 40k universe, as observable and testable as gravity, any religious mental activity cause a psychic reaction in the warp that attracts malignant attention like insects to light. So prayers, blessings, hymns all have actual, physical effects in the 40k universe.

I'm not really sure this is true. Certain atavistic concepts (anger, despair, pleasure, hope) all have reflections in the Warp, sure, but I think this tends to get confused with "emotions" or "faith" or whatever. Maybe this has changed, it's hard to keep up, but it's how I've always read the basic metaphysics of 40K.

[Trevak Dal]

For an immortal who has lived among humans and sees himself as a leader of men, he sure doesn't know a lot about people.

 

He has bungled in several points in his history.

[Race Bannon]

By the Inquisition, THREE PAGES OF HERESY!!

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

It's a fundamental fact of the 40k universe, as observable and testable as gravity, any religious mental activity cause a psychic reaction in the warp that attracts malignant attention like insects to light. So prayers, blessings, hymns all have actual, physical effects in the 40k universe.

I'm not really sure this is true. Certain atavistic concepts (anger, despair, pleasure, hope) all have reflections in the Warp, sure, but I think this tends to get confused with "emotions" or "faith" or whatever. Maybe this has changed, it's hard to keep up, but it's how I've always read the basic metaphysics of 40K.

In MoM the predators asking his god for shelter and good harvests fed the warp.

[MrDarth151]

 

 

It's a fundamental fact of the 40k universe, as observable and testable as gravity, any religious mental activity cause a psychic reaction in the warp that attracts malignant attention like insects to light. So prayers, blessings, hymns all have actual, physical effects in the 40k universe.

I'm not really sure this is true. Certain atavistic concepts (anger, despair, pleasure, hope) all have reflections in the Warp, sure, but I think this tends to get confused with "emotions" or "faith" or whatever. Maybe this has changed, it's hard to keep up, but it's how I've always read the basic metaphysics of 40K.

In MoM the predators asking his god for shelter and good harvests fed the warp.

 

 

Not really. He asked for help, and something answered. It's not like it's a hard rule, not every mad prophet becomes a miracle worker in 40k.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

In the end of the day the Emperor was still human. I've always felt that was part of the point of the character. While a being that saw many different ages of mankind pass and with a knowledge and intellect that pretty much no other human can relate to, he still suffered from no more understanding of the universe as a whole than his own perceptions of the universe allowed. In addition, the Emperor has always come off as an idealist to me. He had a vision for humanity and a faith in his own perception of the Universe being correct that he set out to shape humanity into that ideal as he envisioned it; an ideal that he believed would keep humanity from destruction and make them the sole rulers of the Galaxy. Rulers that were not controlled by other beings within our dimension nor by extra-dimensional beings.

 

I have to agree with those that say the Emperor was against religion but not faith. I view it as he wanted to channel peoples faith into his ideals and away from the superstitions and fears that are often times used to hold people back from his views of "understanding and enlightenment". I see it as The Emperor wanting to instill his dream in humanity in an attempt to elevate humanity above it's history of rampant religion and drive it to a new level, his idealistic form of humanity.

 

Then there are the issues of how different religions perceive things as well. What is a god? Whose definition do we look to in order to define a god? Are the "Chaos Gods" actually gods or are they just creatures beyond our current level of comprehension? When does the Typhoon stop being an angry god and instead become just a force of nature? Do we [our ancestors] acknowledge the typhoon as a god when we don't understand it or do we say that it isn't supernatural but a product of science we have yet to explain? I think the Emperor wanted to create an idealized form of humanity in his own image that was "elevated" above the need to view things not understood though superstition but instead as something that current sciences couldn't explain; for example as a virus was to our ancestors.

 

I would also like to point out that many people who are genii have problems interacting in society and have peculiarities. They don't easily relate to those in "normal" society and sometimes boarder on the edge of insanity. The Emperor himself is shown as a person who lacks the ability to understand the bulk of humanity as their way of thinking and interacting within society is as alien to him as he is to the rest of humanity.

 

Hopefully my drivel makes some sense when read.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

It's a fundamental fact of the 40k universe, as observable and testable as gravity, any religious mental activity cause a psychic reaction in the warp that attracts malignant attention like insects to light. So prayers, blessings, hymns all have actual, physical effects in the 40k universe.

I'm not really sure this is true. Certain atavistic concepts (anger, despair, pleasure, hope) all have reflections in the Warp, sure, but I think this tends to get confused with "emotions" or "faith" or whatever. Maybe this has changed, it's hard to keep up, but it's how I've always read the basic metaphysics of 40K.

In MoM the predators asking his god for shelter and good harvests fed the warp.

Not really. He asked for help, and something answered. It's not like it's a hard rule, not every mad prophet becomes a miracle worker in 40k.

Yeah man. Almost like the author walks the reader through how the preacher went from just some guy to miracle worker to evil theocrat by more and more power attracting things in the warp. It's almost like I understood the authors point. Thanks.

[Kristoff]

 

 

Let's just skip the edge lord 'gotcha' semantics and assume these words are synonymous. We don't need to hash out the definitions of faith, belief, religion, atheism, deities, on and on. It's a fundamental fact of the 40k universe, as observable and testable as gravity, any religious mental activity cause a psychic reaction in the warp that attracts malignant attention like insects to light. So prayers, blessings, hymns all have actual, physical effects in the 40k universe.

Agree but the Emps is against religion not faith because it is faith in the imperial truth that drives the crusade.

That's fine, but it's the semantics I'm talking about. Let's assume we're not including secular faith.

 

 

And yet, that secular faith spawned a religion.  Interestingly enough, we see it happening today.  People are trying to destroy faith in something they cannot quantify so they can put their faith in the bureaucracy or the state.  Instead of priests, shamans, and bishops, they have secretaries, (odd choice of word) ministers, and chairmen.  Then there are others who have so completely lost faith in other people as well as spirits that they become hermits at best and psychotic animals at worst.

[Marshal Rohr]

The lectio divinitatus, not anti-theist imperial policy, spawned the Imperial Church. So it wasn't really the civil religion that did it.

[MrDarth151]

 

 

 

 

It's a fundamental fact of the 40k universe, as observable and testable as gravity, any religious mental activity cause a psychic reaction in the warp that attracts malignant attention like insects to light. So prayers, blessings, hymns all have actual, physical effects in the 40k universe.

I'm not really sure this is true. Certain atavistic concepts (anger, despair, pleasure, hope) all have reflections in the Warp, sure, but I think this tends to get confused with "emotions" or "faith" or whatever. Maybe this has changed, it's hard to keep up, but it's how I've always read the basic metaphysics of 40K.

In MoM the predators asking his god for shelter and good harvests fed the warp.

Not really. He asked for help, and something answered. It's not like it's a hard rule, not every mad prophet becomes a miracle worker in 40k.

Yeah man. Almost like the author walks the reader through how the preacher went from just some guy to miracle worker to evil theocrat by more and more power attracting things in the warp. It's almost like I understood the authors point. Thanks.

 

 

I just don't see how it translates into it being consistent and always working in the same for every single instance of non-secular belief in existence. I find it questionable to draw so far reaching conclusions from so little evidence.

[Marshal Rohr]

I find it questionable you have the ability to positively contribute to discussions about ADBs work after your crusade against him here and on other less savory forums.

 

 

Let's just save some time, don't respond to me anymore. I have nothing positive to say and don't think you're capable of having a real discussion because of your hatred for ADB.

[MrDarth151]

I find it questionable you have the ability to positively contribute to discussions about ADBs work after your crusade against him here and on other less savory forums.

 

 

Let's just save some time, don't respond to me anymore. I have nothing positive to say and don't think you're capable of having a real discussion because of your hatred for ADB.

 

*Shrug* The last time I talked about works of ADB on this forum was in context of recommending Butcher's Nails as probably the best Audiodrama BL ever released. So much hate.

 

I think The Master of Mankind is badly written and characterisation of The Emperor in it poor considering what ADB intended. But I hate the work, not the man. I consider his short HH stories to be some of the best works GW ever published period. So if you are done spouting off-topic ad hominem using stuff from months ago, I think I will go back to having an actual discussion here, thank you.

[Marshal Rohr]

Go on then.

[Race Bannon]

=][=

 

Let's work to keep the thread open.

 

=][=

[fluxdeluxe]

In the grim darkness of the 41st millennium there are only handbags!

[fluxdeluxe]

Joking aside interesting topic. I have a tendency to agree with the posters that are arguing that faith in itself isn't an issue but rather the ritualistic behaviour that accompanies faith. I would say anecdotal evidence points to the fact that ritualistic behaviour coupled with powerful emotions seems to disturb the warp more. Also religions inevitably lead to conflict ( our religion is better than your religion) schisms (my understanding of the god head is better than yours) etc. If the emperor was seeking to lessen the imprint that humanity made on the warp religion seems a reasonable place to start.

[Arkangilos]

Go on then.

I found life got better when certain people get blocked :p then you don't have to see the nonsense and it can't make you angry! :p

[Closet Skeleton]

Faith in the modern sense isn't a human need, its a philosophical concept someone invented to navigate the changing relationship to religion in Europe during the 18th and 19th centuries. Traditionally 'faith in god' was a matter of 'allegiance' not anything modern people mean by 'faith'. Until the Enlightenment most educated Europeans considered the existence of god to be based purely on logic and reason with a little bit of revelation thrown in to confirm things. Faith vs reason as separate domains was then invented as philosophical materialism became more fashionable in order to allow religious scientists to separate their work from their cultural attitudes.

 

3. Throughout ancient mythology there are stories of the power of the Gods receding as less people believe in them. It is through the worship and veneration of the Gods that the Gods receive their power. Personally I like the idea that The Emp NEEDED to be worshipped by quadrillions of human beings to give him the level of power he needed to take on the other Gods in the Warp. That the Emp truly is now part of the pantheon fighting the eternal war and that his power waxes and wanes in relation to the level of devotion the mortal realm affords him.

 

I'm pretty sure this is a modern myth, not an ancient one. Its based on theories developed by Theosophists between 1880-1930 (aka the 'New Age' movement of the 19th century).

 

You get belief systems where gods need sacrifices, but not ones where they need 'belief' or 'psychic energy'.

 

There was some kind of belief that the old gods lost power with the coming of Christianity, but it was always because the Christian god was more powerful and gave his followers the power to defeat other deities, not because the change in belief systems weakened anyone.

 

Pretty much every ancient mythology was dead certain that the gods pre-dated humanity, would outlast humanity and were powerful enough that even being killed by another god didn't completely render them powerless. Even when a mythological entity's power wasn't inherent, it was tied up in magical item or a treaty with another powerful being, it never came from a human.

 

Worship usually had some element of placation, so ignoring a deity, demon or ancestor spirit would make it more active, not less powerful.

 

Theosophists were basically reacting against the Enlightenment split between theology and science of a hundred years before them and were trying to re-unite various systems of thought by coming up with a ton of theories about how the supernatural might work if it could be scientifically studied. All that stuff you can find for sale on the internet that's basically talismanic junk but has 'quantum' in its description, that stuff is inspired by Theosophy. The New Age movement that got going at the end of the 1960s was mostly reviving Theosophical ideas.

 

Theosophists studied religions and traditions from various (mostly asian) cultures originally in the hope that all religious systems had elements of truth and that a primal true religion could be reconstructed by combining those elements. Later Theosophists in the early 20th century changed tack and thus came up with the idea that culture could shape reality so all the different traditions could be 'true' simultaneously. They borrowed the idea of Elemental Spirits from 19th century French Occult writers (themselves probably inspired by Arabic Djinn stories brought over in the Arabian Nights and Orientalist crazes) and came up with the idea that these Elementals fed on human psychic energy and could use it to take on the form of creatures invented by the human imagination (whether or not humans created elementals or just forced existing elementals to take new shapes varied a bit). That's basically 40k's idea of a daemon and it has nothing to do with any pre-19th century folklore or theology about the supernatural realm.

 

Helena Blavatsky, one of the founders of the Theosophical Society, was a big fan of the Victorian proto-science fiction literature and used the excuse that novelists were able to subconsciously channel hidden truths to justify her preventing ideas from fiction as religious doctrines. Several of the editors during the golden age of pulp fiction in the 1920s-50s were Theosophists leading to a revolving science fiction to alternative religion and back to science fiction spinning disc of nonsense. Terry Pratchet managed to get across the 'culture shapes reality' idea must more succinctly and readably in his fiction than Theosophists did in their rambling 'nonfiction' books.

 

Warhammer 40k was created from a grab bag of SF and fantasy tropes so its pretty heavily stuffed with Theosophical ideas even if most of them are third or forth hand. The whole idea of humans evolving psychic powers is straight from Theosophy (in part of the same idea stream that Star Trek and the like ripped off their 'energy beings' from). Psychic powers was one of the ideas Blavatsky took from her favourite SF novel (Vrill: The Power of the Coming Race) and combined with the 'Animal Magnetism' of Franz Mesmer, but her tying it to evolution  was a mostly novel mixture of Christian eschatology and Buddhism (because again, trying to heal the enlightenment split between science and theology).

[Volt]

Let's not forget that, at least I think it was in Fantasy although it might have been in 40k as well, that atheism can support Chaos as well. There at least used to be a minor Chaos God for the atheistic who fed off the position. Ultimately the only way you're getting rid of Chaos isn't by suppressing emotion and spreading atheism or just hiding. You need to take the fight to the warp, and engage in a celestial war. A Second War in Heaven, only this time far more literal.

[Kristoff]

Let's not forget that, at least I think it was in Fantasy although it might have been in 40k as well, that atheism can support Chaos as well. There at least used to be a minor Chaos God for the atheistic who fed off the position. Ultimately the only way you're getting rid of Chaos isn't by suppressing emotion and spreading atheism or just hiding. You need to take the fight to the warp, and engage in a celestial war. A Second War in Heaven, only this time far more literal.

 

In addition some of the greatest wars, tragedies, and forces of change in our day comes from secular and atheistic sources (or at least those purporting them).  All of these would easily feed Khorne and Tzeentch, though Nurgle would also be just as supported by some of the after affects of wars and scientists who are trying to push things just a little farther.  And all the corruption that can be found would also feed Slaanesh.

 

So, stopping religion alone would do nothing to stop the Chaos Gods.  However, it may cause people to think twice about doing things which are of a more classic religious bent or listening to the voices in their head.

[Bryan Blaire]

Sounds to me like maybe the Emperor understood that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions and that there is something about power corrupting that's inherently true in the 40Kverse, and that wrapping that all up in a neat little package basically means bad :cuss for Humanity because Chaos.

 

Also, let's focus on how things work for the 40Kverse here to keep this open. People keep bringing "real world" things in here, but that is a dangerous edge to walk. It'd be a lot better to concentrate on what we know/can speculate about the 40Kverse (even if it is based on philosophies from our world, it's still fiction and might work very differently) for this discussion than to keep bringing up "what we know" and assumin that all of that is in fact true for the 40Kverse, when it doesn't have to be identical. The 40Kverse actually seems to be being woven in a pretty tight fashion right now, even if it doesn't appear that it is always the fact from the outside.

[mc warhammer]

the emperor's characterisation clearly doesn't work for some folks but it clearly does for others, like myself. i'm still fascinated by the guy.

 

but that's fiction/entertainment. you can't please everyone all of the time. the good thing about 30/40k is there's a lot of material out there, enough for any of us to happily keep reading.