The Emperor was wrong

[choppyred]

In the end of the day the Emperor was still human. I've always felt that was part of the point of the character.

I'm not sure that E money is human, Koja Zu at the start of MoM seems to think that he is not and when she questions Valdor on this he does not answer, it is left ambiguous (bravo A.D.B) But I like your thinking.

Actually thinking about it a bit more this could be the reason why Emps makes so many mistakes when it comes to human nature, so going back to the OP this is not a "plot hole" but in fact a very large part of the plot as to the nature of the Emperor and therfore his empire. As for the Emperor being a "hypocrite" if you look at the ancient Greek origin of the word it means an actor/someone who plays a role/someone who wears a mask. I think that hypocrite describes E money perfectly as nobody knows what he really looks like and he is playing the role of master of mankind.

[Brother Tyler]

This has been a very interesting discussion so far, and it is a topic that is truly worthy of discussion. For the most part, we've avoided inappropriate replies. Please keep that up and remain focused on the topic at hand. I've been watching and have been formulating my own thoughts, but they require some time to compose in order to effectively convey in simple terms what is, in actuality, a fairly complex issue.

I'm looking forward to seeing additional thoughts on the subject that members might have and (soon) presenting my own.

[SpecialIssue]

Worship or belief (and 'faith' is belief) in gods or the warp is not needed to give Chaos its power. Human emotion, no matter what, why, or how it is expressed gives them power. They were formed long before we even knew they existed, as entities from our natural emotions.

 

"When the tribes of Man first traveled abroad upon the lands and seas of ancient Terra, when they first met their distant kin, their first words were not of peace or brotherly love. They were of anger, hatred and rage. This is the tragedy and saddest irony of Mankind..."  - Codex: CSM, 3.5ed

 

This includes the emotions or ideas that we'd typically regard as 'good' - they all fall under the Big 4.

 

Khorne is also the god of justice, as justice is vengeance, and both are demanded by anger and outrage.
Nurgle is also the god of mercy, as mercy is empathizing with despair.
Slaanesh is also the god of love, as love is pleasurable in and of itself.
Tzeentch is also the god of hope, for that is the will for change.

 

Whether from an atheist scientist during the Dark Age of Technology, or the most pious cardinal living in the Age of the Imperium, from Marneus Calgar to Abaddon the Despoiler; all bleed their emotions to the warp, and the warp merely forms a psyche reflective of their collective feelings. Even atheists still feel anger, love, despair and hope. Whether we believe in the warp entities or not, they are born and shaped by our collective emotion.

 

Rather, belief, devotion, ritual and worship is performed not to strengthen the gods - but to gain their attention.

 

That is what atheism/ignorance brings to the table, and is ultimately only a temporary measure. It doesn't cut the source of the god's power, or necessarily do anything to mitigate the emotions humanity collectively feels. Even if we don't know about them, they know about us, and will increasingly attempt to reach across the veil to change that.

 

Whilst the belief in the deified Emperor provides a strong unthinking link across the species and partially strengthens one's conviction against Chaos, it does nothing to either empower Emperor/birth a new savior god as many would like to believe. Emotion creates gods, not beliefs; and the emotional range humanly possible is brutish, simple and 4 dimensional. The Eldar were able to form a focused and civilized pantheon thanks to their incredibly subtle and diverse emotional range. We can't even imagine a feeling or feelings exclusive to the very act of smithing - yet the Eldar have a god of smithing (Vaul), rulership (Asuryan), etc, etc; while we only have gods of Anger, Pleasure, Sadness, and Hope.

 

I have long believed in the mantra that there is no easy way out of the darkness of the 41st millennium. The very things that make us human are also our greatest, unvanquishable foes. The warp is the central defining characteristic of this universe, and without a strong, unapologetic take on it, I feel the 40k is much weaker and superficial for it. The philosophical basis for the warp in fact has little basis for the clear-cut typical Abrahamic good vs evil, angels vs demons dichotomy, or an easy "Emperor becomes a God, humanity is safer" button. Are there any emotions conceivable by humans, not already covered by the Big 4, that are strong enough to form an agreeable new god?

 

Rather, it has been said in passing for a long time that the hope for humanity is that we can survive our violent evolution into a mature psychic race with a mastery of our power, both biologically and psychologically. The Emperor was probably attempting to buy time and steward us through this process, and possibly expedite it.

 

In my mind, our hope constitutes thus: Psychic or not, this 'New Man' accepts the nature of the warp for what it is, is be able to be exposed to it, and retain their sanity. Their sheer strength of will maintains an unshakable sense of self and identity not lost in the ephemeral highs and lows of raw human feeling and daemonic contact. Their consciousness has literal control over their emotions, rather than the other way around. They consciously choose when and how to feel, and in so doing gain control over everything (sentient or not) that springs from it. The gods might never be able to be destroyed, but we can control their power over us, and gradually change them into something more agreeable as our racial warp-imprint changes. 

 

I also believe in the dark irony that Abaddon the Despoiler is an exemplar of this 'New Man'.

 

In 40k, power does not come easy, and those who will take it must walk down increasingly dark paths and undergo much tribulation. Our easiest options were long exhausted, first in the Dark Age of Technology and then in the Heresy. We are caught in the middle of an existential battle 60 million years old, between the forces of bloody chaos, emotion and magic; and cold order, calculation and technology. At the end of the 41st millennium, both tug at the fabric of mankind, both are equally important to our survival and both are equally terrible to behold.

 

The path is narrow, and the chasms yawn deep and echo with horror.

 

Just a few outdated thoughts from a guy which refuses to let go of this vision of the 41st millennium.

[karden00]

No he wasn't. 

 

You heretic.

 

Roboute will gut you with His sword. 

 

Heretic. 

[jeffersonian000]

I've noticed a couple of points no one has mentioned so far, that might shed some light on the discussion:

 

1. The history of the 40k setting is reverse engineered from the general timeline introduced from the very beginning of the game.

2. As such, everything the Emperor has done was done to achieve the current setting.

 

My favorite Big E quote is, "you can be all knowing or all powerful, but not at the same time." At the beginning, in 8,000 BCE when the being that would become the Emperor was created, he saw the end of humanity. He was all knowing. Over the next 38,000 years, he set each piece into place tgat he would need in order to give humanity a chance at survival, and set everything into motion when he assumed the persona of "The Emperor". Every action, every inaction, every word, and every moment of pause was executed to give humanity a chance, including rebuking Lorgar because him needed to control when Chaos would come into play. Horus was found first and trained the longest so he could lead a rebellion against his father. Alpharius and Omegon figured it out, and decided to support the Emperor.

 

It's a glorious tapestry of cause and effect. The only question is, did he succeed?

 

SJ

[Volt]

I've noticed a couple of points no one has mentioned so far, that might shed some light on the discussion:

 

1. The history of the 40k setting is reverse engineered from the general timeline introduced from the very beginning of the game.

2. As such, everything the Emperor has done was done to achieve the current setting.

 

My favorite Big E quote is, "you can be all knowing or all powerful, but not at the same time." At the beginning, in 8,000 BCE when the being that would become the Emperor was created, he saw the end of humanity. He was all knowing. Over the next 38,000 years, he set each piece into place tgat he would need in order to give humanity a chance at survival, and set everything into motion when he assumed the persona of "The Emperor". Every action, every inaction, every word, and every moment of pause was executed to give humanity a chance, including rebuking Lorgar because him needed to control when Chaos would come into play. Horus was found first and trained the longest so he could lead a rebellion against his father. Alpharius and Omegon figured it out, and decided to support the Emperor.

 

It's a glorious tapestry of cause and effect. The only question is, did he succeed?

 

SJ

I'd say creating a civilization that lasted for ten thousand years is achievement enough, considering no other culture could even dream of such an achievement in reality. The longest lasting civilization, Rome, which lasted a mere 1,956 years (Founding of Roman Republic to the Fall of Constantinople).

[Augustus]

Faith in the modern sense isn't a human need, its a philosophical concept someone invented to navigate the changing relationship to religion in Europe during the 18th and 19th centuries. Traditionally 'faith in god' was a matter of 'allegiance' not anything modern people mean by 'faith'. Until the Enlightenment most educated Europeans considered the existence of god to be based purely on logic and reason with a little bit of revelation thrown in to confirm things. Faith vs reason as separate domains was then invented as philosophical materialism became more fashionable in order to allow religious scientists to separate their work from their cultural attitudes.

 

3. Throughout ancient mythology there are stories of the power of the Gods receding as less people believe in them. It is through the worship and veneration of the Gods that the Gods receive their power. Personally I like the idea that The Emp NEEDED to be worshipped by quadrillions of human beings to give him the level of power he needed to take on the other Gods in the Warp. That the Emp truly is now part of the pantheon fighting the eternal war and that his power waxes and wanes in relation to the level of devotion the mortal realm affords him.

 

I'm pretty sure this is a modern myth, not an ancient one. Its based on theories developed by Theosophists between 1880-1930 (aka the 'New Age' movement of the 19th century).

 

You get belief systems where gods need sacrifices, but not ones where they need 'belief' or 'psychic energy'.

 

There was some kind of belief that the old gods lost power with the coming of Christianity, but it was always because the Christian god was more powerful and gave his followers the power to defeat other deities, not because the change in belief systems weakened anyone.

 

...

 

...

 

Back to the closet with you, Sir. I am not here to be educated! ;)

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I think some folks may be considering "religous" and "secular" faith as two different things. Now it's easy in a way to do this, to consider atheism and "insert random religion here" as two different things.

 

However, there is no real difference as far as the basic human pysche goes. I'm talking about the concept of faith itself, it needs to be seperated from the concept of religion.

 

The same effort, fanaticism and potential blind and violent actions can be associated with a religion, political ideaology or almost anything. There is a fundamental aspect of the Human condition to place faith in a concept and then follow that concept to the exclusion of all else.

 

Now if we take this in the context of 40k we see how a religion can be considered a source of energy for chaos as it concentrates and focuses human emotion. However an extremist political ideaology can do the same and the last century of our own history has shown this to be true.

 

Also if all religion inevitably led to corruption and chaos, why are the Adeptus Mechanicus not corrupted? It took the efforts of Lorgar and Horus to corrupt and create the dark mechanicus, if religion was an inevitable path to chaos then mars should of turned to the warp long before the heresy.

 

Now it is clear the Emperor is aware of this and his Imperial Truth is his way to focus and control the human need for faith by focusing faith in his ideaology. In a way there is little difference between the Emperor's Imperial Truth or a massed, organised religion however is it really a better option than just allowing Humanity to worship him as a deity?

[Charlo]

Not read the entire thread, but my 2p is that The Emperor didn't want the religious route (as easy as it would be) because he wanted to elevate humanity, not have their sole belief be in a single entity that will solve all of their problems. Imperial Truth is promoting reliance on the self, science and the mind - making the species the perfect masters of the galaxy they were always meant to be... Not a bunch of mindless zealots fighting for a single cause that doesn't actually promote anything other than "kill the others."

[Marshal Rohr]

I think some folks may be considering "religous" and "secular" faith as two different things. Now it's easy in a way to do this, to consider atheism and "insert random religion here" as two different things.

 

However, there is no real difference as far as the basic human pysche goes. I'm talking about the concept of faith itself, it needs to be seperated from the concept of religion.

 

The same effort, fanaticism and potential blind and violent actions can be associated with a religion, political ideaology or almost anything. There is a fundamental aspect of the Human condition to place faith in a concept and then follow that concept to the exclusion of all else.

 

Now if we take this in the context of 40k we see how a religion can be considered a source of energy for chaos as it concentrates and focuses human emotion. However an extremist political ideaology can do the same and the last century of our own history has shown this to be true.

 

Also if all religion inevitably led to corruption and chaos, why are the Adeptus Mechanicus not corrupted? It took the efforts of Lorgar and Horus to corrupt and create the dark mechanicus, if religion was an inevitable path to chaos then mars should of turned to the warp long before the heresy.

 

Now it is clear the Emperor is aware of this and his Imperial Truth is his way to focus and control the human need for faith by focusing faith in his ideaology. In a way there is little difference between the Emperor's Imperial Truth or a massed, organised religion however is it really a better option than just allowing Humanity to worship him as a deity?

I feel like there is very little real world behavioral and social science in this analysis. If this is your personal viewpoint that is one thing, and I get where you are coming from, but you definitely need to make it clearer you aren't trying to say it's objective fact.

[Vel'Cona]

Not to add unnecessary fuel to the fire, but this critique might be more useful f you can specify where you consider BC Kezef's argument flawed, unless you're saying his entire premise is incorrect.

Also, if we're looking for objective truth in a discussion about religion, I think we're all going to come away a bit disappointed.

[Marshal Rohr]

Not to add unnecessary fuel to the fire, but this critique might be more useful f you can specify where you consider BC Kezef's argument flawed, unless you're saying his entire premise is incorrect.

Also, if we're looking for objective truth in a discussion about religion, I think we're all going to come away a bit disappointed.

I guess more along the line of citing the sources he's using for his arguments. Not like page and date, obviously, but something like 'Dr. X from MIT says Y, and this is similar to what St. A said in 1500, so maybe B is kind of similar in 40K'. Right now theres no way to discuss it, because it just seems like a personal opinion about religion and human nature and that's not my business to agree or disagree with.

[Vel'Cona]

Fair enough.  I'm afraid this entire exercise will probably devolve into subjectivity in short order in either case, which is probably why Big E is such a controversial figure in the Warhammer community.  It seems even those in charge of delegating background (authors, codex/rulebook writers, etc.) aren't entirely in agreement on this topic, from what I can tell.

 

Not that this should stifle civil discussion, OFC.  :)

[choppyred]

Not to add unnecessary fuel to the fire, but this critique might be more useful f you can specify where you consider BC Kezef's argument flawed, unless you're saying his entire premise is incorrect.

Also, if we're looking for objective truth in a discussion about religion, I think we're all going to come away a bit disappointed.

I guess more along the line of citing the sources he's using for his arguments. Not like page and date, obviously, but something like 'Dr. X from MIT says Y, and this is similar to what St. A said in 1500, so maybe B is kind of similar in 40K'. Right now theres no way to discuss it, because it just seems like a personal opinion about religion and human nature and that's not my business to agree or disagree with.

Dictionary definition of faith is great trust in something or somebody, ergo it does not automaticly mean religious faith, if we get bogged down I.R.L views of religious faith this thread is going to get CHOOOMED!

[Slave to Darkness]

As long as we dont keep comparing 40k to real life as much then I have FAITH that we wont get CHOOMED.

[Olis]

Dictionary definition of faith is great trust in something or somebody, ergo it does not automaticly mean religious faith, if we get bogged down I.R.L views of religious faith this thread is going to get CHOOOMED!

Indeed brother. And, as the only Mod who regularly totes a Volkite weapon, I consider this a summons...

But, seriously, personal views and interpretation of the lore can be quite difficult to partition in a thread such as this. It may even be impossible. But, regardless, we must try. It's been quite a while since we've had a discussion like this that hasn't crashed and burned soon after launch. So long as we remain civil about others interpretations, we should be good.

[Kristoff]

Not read the entire thread, but my 2p is that The Emperor didn't want the religious route (as easy as it would be) because he wanted to elevate humanity, not have their sole belief be in a single entity that will solve all of their problems. Imperial Truth is promoting reliance on the self, science and the mind - making the species the perfect masters of the galaxy they were always meant to be... Not a bunch of mindless zealots fighting for a single cause that doesn't actually promote anything other than "kill the others."

 

Agreed, and I've made a similar point.  If the Big E made a mistake (and no telling what goes on in that labyrinthine mind), it was that while trying to shut the door for avenues for the religions of Chaos to creep in, he left them susceptible to being revealed as an avenue of power and mystery to be explored.  By trying to enforce the idea that Daemons didn't exist because of SCIENCE!, they were unprepared to face against those other-dimensional Xenos when they did arise.

 

And it's not like shutting off religion has ever been successful at getting rid of fanatics and zealots, here or in 40K.  There's fanatics in Asia of both religious and secular bent to show that religion alone doesn't solve the problems.  There are the fanatics of 40K which kill of the same Psykers which Navigate the Ships and power the Golden Throne.  He just needed to be clearer about the state of things and why they were going in a certain direction.  He really did leave them open to being surprised by Chaos.  The question is how much of this was intended and "going as planned" in a way that would make Tzeentch jealous.

 

As long as we dont keep comparing 40k to real life as much then I have FAITH that we wont get CHOOMED.

 

Some aspects are sufficiently close to justify a connection.  They have to be close enough to our level of humanity for us to empathize with them.  In a way, they allow us to explore our own selves.  It is a standard practice of authors to tie real life in to their worlds to help make them relatable and understandable to use as we interact with them.

 

The warning about allowing it to devolve the discussion is also something we should be keeping in our own minds as we make these responses.

[jeffersonian000]

 

 

I've noticed a couple of points no one has mentioned so far, that might shed some light on the discussion:

 

1. The history of the 40k setting is reverse engineered from the general timeline introduced from the very beginning of the game.

2. As such, everything the Emperor has done was done to achieve the current setting.

 

My favorite Big E quote is, "you can be all knowing or all powerful, but not at the same time." At the beginning, in 8,000 BCE when the being that would become the Emperor was created, he saw the end of humanity. He was all knowing. Over the next 38,000 years, he set each piece into place tgat he would need in order to give humanity a chance at survival, and set everything into motion when he assumed the persona of "The Emperor". Every action, every inaction, every word, and every moment of pause was executed to give humanity a chance, including rebuking Lorgar because him needed to control when Chaos would come into play. Horus was found first and trained the longest so he could lead a rebellion against his father. Alpharius and Omegon figured it out, and decided to support the Emperor.

 

It's a glorious tapestry of cause and effect. The only question is, did he succeed?

 

SJ

I'd say creating a civilization that lasted for ten thousand years is achievement enough, considering no other culture could even dream of such an achievement in reality. The longest lasting civilization, Rome, which lasted a mere 1,956 years (Founding of Roman Republic to the Fall of Constantinople).

The Chinese had a 5000 year dynasty.

 

SJ

[Bryan Blaire]

=][=

You guys really need to get on the 40K only bus, or this isn't going to go much farther than the next post that doesn't.

=][=

[Claws and Effect]

My take on it:

 

Emps was against religion because it all too often leads to fanaticism and zealotry. Those are both potent sources of powerful emotion.

 

Religious fanaticism also tends to lead to stagnation, which is the opposite of what he wanted. Look at what has happened since he took a seat.

 

The Mechanicus views machines as holy objects, and thus changing them in any way is blasphemous. As a result, they have not created anything new in ten millennia. The Tau, who view machines as nothing more than machines, invent new stuff constantly.

 

The entire Imperium has devolved into zealotry, and as a result it has not changed in 10,000 years. At all. Because they see it as "If the God-Emperor wanted things different, he would make them different".

 

Their blind devotion to a being who never wanted their adulation has them locked into the belief that they are incapable of changing things for the better themselves. The fact that you can be executed on the spot for even suggesting otherwise keeps the Imperium stagnant and slowly dying.

 

It's not faith or belief in something he was against. It was the fanaticism that breeds stagnation he was against, and he recognized that organized religion creates more fanatical behavior than practically anything else in existence.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Not to add unnecessary fuel to the fire, but this critique might be more useful f you can specify where you consider BC Kezef's argument flawed, unless you're saying his entire premise is incorrect.

Also, if we're looking for objective truth in a discussion about religion, I think we're all going to come away a bit disappointed.

I guess more along the line of citing the sources he's using for his arguments. Not like page and date, obviously, but something like 'Dr. X from MIT says Y, and this is similar to what St. A said in 1500, so maybe B is kind of similar in 40K'. Right now theres no way to discuss it, because it just seems like a personal opinion about religion and human nature and that's not my business to agree or disagree with.

Theology and military history are my twin passions (as they are so entwined) this is the reason I am doing my best NOT to link this discussion to any one religion or ideaology as this discussion becomes about THAT concept.

I don't want this thread to devolve into personal views of certain faiths and political doctrines because I like how this debate is avoiding melta death.

We CAN discuss the general theme of Humanity and faith without getting into specifics.

[Marshal Rohr]

Not to add unnecessary fuel to the fire, but this critique might be more useful f you can specify where you consider BC Kezef's argument flawed, unless you're saying his entire premise is incorrect.

Also, if we're looking for objective truth in a discussion about religion, I think we're all going to come away a bit disappointed.

I guess more along the line of citing the sources he's using for his arguments. Not like page and date, obviously, but something like 'Dr. X from MIT says Y, and this is similar to what St. A said in 1500, so maybe B is kind of similar in 40K'. Right now theres no way to discuss it, because it just seems like a personal opinion about religion and human nature and that's not my business to agree or disagree with.

Theology and military history are my twin passions (as they are so entwined) this is the reason I am doing my best NOT to link this discussion to any one religion or ideaology as this discussion becomes about THAT concept.

I don't want this thread to devolve into personal views of certain faiths and political doctrines because I like how this debate is avoiding melta death.

We CAN discuss the general theme of Humanity and faith without getting into specifics.

Not unless you're citing what source you are drawing your claim from. For instance, I can say 'Believing in deities is human weakness', and if I am referencing nihilism and Nietzsche, you could come in and say 'well the rationalists said believing in deities is something like a wager, better safe than sorry, which is kind of like the Emperor, he'd rather have no religions in case any of them feed the warp powers'. If I am saying 'believing in deities is human weakness' because I am an edgelord and have never read Nietzsche but didn't like going to church as a kid, then I am not positively contributing because my position isn't one that can be academically argued from.

To use things you've said, for instance. If you are saying people need faith/belief/etc and its part of their genetic makeup because you read that in a science book? Or are you saying that because you see some correlation and are attributing causation?

[Race Bannon]

Look at the OP and start from there, not from here.

[choppyred]

I think that the emperor maybe saw religion as competition, he wanted all human effort focused on the great crusade and religion would distract them. Also religion may well restrict people in certain ways for example I can't purge those xenos as we are all brother creations or I can't preform exterminatus on that day it is a holy day.

[Claws and Effect]

On the fanaticism = emotion aspect I briefly touched on above:

 

I'll use an analogy of sports fandom to illustrate my point.

 

The Imperial Truth is like a casual fan who gets excited when his team wins, but doesn't get out of hand about it. Maybe shouting something to the effect of "Yay! My team won the championship!" Possibly a little light trash talk to fans of the other team. Overall, they're happy, but had a rational response to that happiness.

 

The Imperial Cult/Creed on the other hand, is like the sports fans who riot and destroy tons of property because their team WON.

 

That kind of emotional response to being happy about something is completely irrational. And THAT is what feeds the Chaos gods. The casual fan does too, but not nearly as much as the rioters.

 

Fanaticism causes a much stronger emotional response to stimulus than merely believing in something.

 

And that is what the Emperor was trying to avoid by abolishing religion in favor of the Imperial Truth. Being happy your team won doesn't give Khorne as much power as you and thousands of your fellow fans flipping cars over it.