The Emperor was wrong

[A D-B]

 

 

 

I remember when I first started on the series, I did wonder why the Imperial Truth - which is essentially a lie or massively flawed from half of the 800 ways you can look at it - was the Imperium's (and the Emperor's?) grand plan. There's something compelling in the idea that it's the mortal way an immortal's plans were carried out, inserting that first baroque and wayward misunderstanding in the long process of Warhammer 40,000, but it still knocked me back a bit the first time I saw it.

i took it at face value, but HR was my first real exposure to the universe outside of watson as a kid and a few WD articles. my own approach towards entertainment is not to fight it, i tend to give the benefit of the doubt and patch any plot holes i find (unless they're deeper than africa by toto). it didn't require particularly exhaustive mental gymnastics to make it work with what i already knew.

 

how does it sit with you these days?

 

It is what it is. I hate that phrase, but it fits. The twinned joy/problem with this stuff is that no one sees the holes in their unpublished stuff; a lot of the criticisms and solutions yelled for this subject into the aether of the internet think they and they alone are the magical souls that solve all the logical inconsistencies, that all of the people in the meetings are morons - when if their vision was published instead it would be torn mercilessly to shreds as more inconsistent and sillier than ever. 

 

 

 

I think that is a little harsh A.D.B, all that we as a community have to go on is what has been written up until now so all that we can do is speculate and look for reasons why the characters act in the way that they do and make the decsions that they make. We have not had the privilege of looking behind the curtain as it were or actualy shape the story as you have. So for us " yelling into the aether of the internet" is all that we can do to try to figure things out,-

 

Ah, but naw. I'm not talking about this thread and this kind of discourse. I'm talking about definitive claims that ruin these kinds of threads and this kind of discussion. I was specifically answering MCW's question, not making a blanket statement on the thread, etc. 

 

My apologies, Choppy - put it down to poor phrasing on my lunchbreak. 

[SpecialIssue]

 

It is what it is. I hate that phrase, but it fits. The twinned joy/problem with this stuff is that no one sees the holes in their unpublished stuff; a lot of the criticisms and solutions yelled for this subject into the aether of the internet think they and they alone are the magical souls that solve all the logical inconsistencies, that all of the people in the meetings are morons - when if their vision was published instead it would be torn mercilessly to shreds as more inconsistent and sillier than ever. 

 

...

 

Sometimes the lore is the lore and you don't fight it, you just bring what sense to it that you can and work within the boundaries already established.

 

...

 

Sometimes, though, it's a matter of letting the story finish. It's why I'm amazed anyone can claim they draw specific answers or understanding of the Emperor from The Master of Mankind. Not only is there nothing new about the Emperor in that book, there's also nothing definitive. Most people got that, like you'd expect, but I find it fascinating to read the views of people that didn't, and insist their conclusions are "right". One of the reasons I hope I get time to write one more HH novel on Terra is to show a few more characters interacting with the Emperor outside the Webway, for some cool contrasts. There's so much tread in what you can show and the context it can give.

 

 

Which is why the 'story' of 40k never has been 'finished', nor should it ever be. Honestly, it has exasperated for years now me to no end to have so much I love to speculate and imagine in the setting be completely nullified by singular truths I never asked for. There should always be huge, big things left to mystery and inference, things to discuss. And the Emperor and his plans should be at the very center of that mystery. The more uncertainties and questions (i.e. the bigger/more unclear the boundaries), the bigger the latitude for personal viewpoints and tastes.

 

I hold a very unpopular belief in that I wish the Horus Heresy was never written as it has been, as a fait-accompli blow-by-blow eye witness account, for it has irrevocably rid the universe of much scale, mythos and mystery. Telling less, or incomplete/competing narratives allows much more latitude as to how and why, and accommodates the widest tastes in storytelling, interpretation, and working out plotholes. Angels of Darkness, Lord of the Night, etc, stories like those are the subjective, broken lenses through which I want the foundation myth of the Imperium to be seen. They widen the possible interpretations even as they give more information, instead of nailing down singular truths that may or may not take.

 

Even MoM I believe showed too much/was too direct in its dealings with the Emperor, even if its goal was explicitly not to. People are always wanting to take a shadow and make an impression in stone. We know so little about him that any shadow we see of his character and motives is bound to be jumped on and set into stone. At the same time, giving more information to clearly explain him completely destroys his mystery and thus gravitas as an unknowable, powerful, distant figure.

 

I would have preferred if the Emperor in the HH was kept at arm's length the whole time, even up to the final battle. People telling others about what the Emperor said to them, or He only ever speaking a few lines as the authoritative bookend to any scene. The final battle with Horus is not even seen, instead indirect accounts of its destructive physical/metaphysical effects on those near to it. This I think would have been better at forestalling any attempts to conclude anything definitive on Him and preserve the universe's myths and grandeur.

[Brother Tyler]

My apologies, Choppy - put it down to poor phrasing on my lunchbreak.

Tyler's Corollary: Never post when you're hangry.

And in a more participatory manner, I'm preparing my bit for this discussion. The mods (not me) have been monitoring the discussion and have had to take some action which may have been transparent to some of you. The nature of the topic creates a strong risk of comments that stray outside the scope of the B&C, causing those posts to be hidden or edited. Overall, it has been going acceptably and I'd like it to remain that way (at least until I have a chance to put my two cents in).

[Vel'Cona]

In the end, someone has to be the authority, someone has the be the follower and inevitably some of those followers will be displeased by the decisions of the authority in charge.  It's amazing how clearly the Emperor's leadership of the Imperium is directly reflected in GW/BL's "leadership" of the Warhammer fandom.  :P

 

As far as I see it, the Emperor can be right or wrong depending on any point of view but in the end, the fact that his vision clearly did not work on the grand scale he planned means that ultimately either that vision was imperfect or humans are simply incapable of seeing it into reality.  In either case, setting realistic goals is probably one of the greatest tests a rational mind can make, as "realism" is going to be subjective to the individual in question.  Given the Emperor is implied to be "godlike" or "perfect" we could assume that the Imperial Truth is a perfect concept, but is simply unrealistic in the face of a vast and uncaring universe.  On the other hand, if we are willing to accept that the Emperor is actually a flawed individual (heresy!), then the Imperial Truth would never have worked, regardless of the efforts of the Imperium as a whole.

[choppyred]

 

 

 

[choppyred]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, but naw. I'm not talking about this thread and this kind of discourse. I'm talking about definitive claims that ruin these kinds of threads and this kind of discussion. I was specifically answering MCW's question, not making a blanket statement on the thread, etc. 

 

My apologies, Choppy - put it down to poor phrasing on my lunchbreak. 

 

No apology needed if I got the wrong end of the stick but thank's anyway.

 

 

It is what it is. I hate that phrase, but it fits. The twinned joy/problem with this stuff is that no one sees the holes in their unpublished stuff; a lot of the criticisms and solutions yelled for this subject into the aether of the internet think they and they alone are the magical souls that solve all the logical inconsistencies, that all of the people in the meetings are morons - when if their vision was published instead it would be torn mercilessly to shreds as more inconsistent and sillier than ever. 

 

...

 

Sometimes the lore is the lore and you don't fight it, you just bring what sense to it that you can and work within the boundaries already established.

 

...

 

Sometimes, though, it's a matter of letting the story finish. It's why I'm amazed anyone can claim they draw specific answers or understanding of the Emperor from The Master of Mankind. Not only is there nothing new about the Emperor in that book, there's also nothing definitive. Most people got that, like you'd expect, but I find it fascinating to read the views of people that didn't, and insist their conclusions are "right". One of the reasons I hope I get time to write one more HH novel on Terra is to show a few more characters interacting with the Emperor outside the Webway, for some cool contrasts. There's so much tread in what you can show and the context it can give.

 

 

Which is why the 'story' of 40k never has been 'finished', nor should it ever be. Honestly, it has exasperated for years now me to no end to have so much I love to speculate and imagine in the setting be completely nullified by singular truths I never asked for. There should always be huge, big things left to mystery and inference, things to discuss. And the Emperor and his plans should be at the very center of that mystery. The more uncertainties and questions (i.e. the bigger/more unclear the boundaries), the bigger the latitude for personal viewpoints and tastes.

 

I hold a very unpopular belief in that I wish the Horus Heresy was never written as it has been, as a fait-accompli blow-by-blow eye witness account, for it has irrevocably rid the universe of much scale, mythos and mystery. Telling less, or incomplete/competing narratives allows much more latitude as to how and why, and accommodates the widest tastes in storytelling, interpretation, and working out plotholes. Angels of Darkness, Lord of the Night, etc, stories like those are the subjective, broken lenses through which I want the foundation myth of the Imperium to be seen. They widen the possible interpretations even as they give more information, instead of nailing down singular truths that may or may not take.

 

Even MoM I believe showed too much/was too direct in its dealings with the Emperor, even if its goal was explicitly not to. People are always wanting to take a shadow and make an impression in stone. We know so little about him that any shadow we see of his character and motives is bound to be jumped on and set into stone. At the same time, giving more information to clearly explain him completely destroys his mystery and thus gravitas as an unknowable, powerful, distant figure.

 

I would have preferred if the Emperor in the HH was kept at arm's length the whole time, even up to the final battle. People telling others about what the Emperor said to them, or He only ever speaking a few lines as the authoritative bookend to any scene. The final battle with Horus is not even seen, instead indirect accounts of its destructive physical/metaphysical effects on those near to it. This I think would have been better at forestalling any attempts to conclude anything definitive on Him and preserve the universe's myths and grandeur.

 

I agree that some or most things should remain un told and still full of mystery, however I disagree that MOM showed too much, at no point do we see from E-moneys point of view or know what he is thinking we see only what other characters see of him and hear from him. Even when Ra is taken in to what we assume are visions of the Emperors past who can tell if they are what they appear or what the Emperor wants Ra to see ( I belive it is more this).  Koja Zu implies that big-E is a weapon from the dark age of technology. The old fluff says that he is the result of shamen all pouring their power in to one being in about 6000 B.C. Not all of this can be the truth and MOM took us no closer to knowing the truth and portrayed the Emperor as he wanted to be seen. But I think that this is now straying in to the subject of the nature of the Emperor so maybe needs a new thread.

 To keep this relevent to the OP the Emperors nature would influence his actions for example if he was indeed a weapon from the dark age perhaps he was "programed" to combat religion hence the imperial truth. Also sorry for the multiple posts I'm still getting the hang of the tools on the forum.

[Claws and Effect]

Has it occurred to anyone that the Emperor DID foresee the Heresy coming and, knowing he couldn't prevent it, took steps to ensure humanity at least survived the aftermath?

 

I mean, precognition is one of his powers, yes? Maybe the Heresy was one or several of thousands of possibilities, but since it started with decisions made by others he didn't have much power to stop it if they decided to go down that path. I mean, he wasn't the only powerful being involved.

[Kristoff]

Has it occurred to anyone that the Emperor DID foresee the Heresy coming and, knowing he couldn't prevent it, took steps to ensure humanity at least survived the aftermath?

 

I mean, precognition is one of his powers, yes? Maybe the Heresy was one or several of thousands of possibilities, but since it started with decisions made by others he didn't have much power to stop it if they decided to go down that path. I mean, he wasn't the only powerful being involved.

 

Some of us have alluded to it, yes. 

[Bryan Blaire]

The question on the Emperor's precognition is whether it locked a foreseen future into place. That gets into a whole fate vs. free will debate that would likely range much farther afield than 40K.

 

What can be looked at as the statement of "omniscient vs omnipotent". If you are all-knowing, then things must be locked into place, because if anything was different, then you aren't all-knowing - but if things are locked into place, you do not have the power to change them and can't be omnipotent. Converesly, if you have the power to change anything, then you are Tzeentch. :lol:

 

Okay, more seriously, if you can change the events of any foreseen point, then you haven't really foreseen the outcome, just possibilities, and therefore aren't truly omniscient.

 

So, which was the Emperor (and was he able to switch back and forth)? Getting to the bottom of that could give some insight as to the nature of the story.

[choppyred]

This is all sounding a bit "Dune, Golden path". Now whilst Rogue Trader took heavy influence from Mr Herbert surely they have enough writting talent in their stable now to forge a new and unique direction don't you think?

[Olis]

So, which was the Emperor (and was he able to switch back and forth)? Getting to the bottom of that could give some insight as to the nature of the story.

 

Now that's an interesting thought. If the Emperor could be one or the other, alternately, then could he control that change? If so, then quite how did he do it, why did he have that power and what sort of 'cool-down' on his abilities did he have? ^_^

[jeffersonian000]

The Imperial Truth certainly was poorly thought out simply because it is literally impossible to crush religious belief since the religious can always hide it within their minds. And even if you have psykers, they're still fairly rare within the far reaches of the Imperium and you would never be able to mentally check every single person. The best you can ever do is suppress it, which IMO is worse because that simply would lead to easier spread of Chaos Taint. It's always better to legalize something and try to regulate it yourself so you can try to guide it to fit to fit your ideals. As the Last Church showed the Emperor ultimately is still plagued by the weaknesses of great leaders who overstretch their goals and fall short of the dream, often oblivious to their own failure.

 

 

 

 

I've noticed a couple of points no one has mentioned so far, that might shed some light on the discussion:

 

1. The history of the 40k setting is reverse engineered from the general timeline introduced from the very beginning of the game.

2. As such, everything the Emperor has done was done to achieve the current setting.

 

My favorite Big E quote is, "you can be all knowing or all powerful, but not at the same time." At the beginning, in 8,000 BCE when the being that would become the Emperor was created, he saw the end of humanity. He was all knowing. Over the next 38,000 years, he set each piece into place tgat he would need in order to give humanity a chance at survival, and set everything into motion when he assumed the persona of "The Emperor". Every action, every inaction, every word, and every moment of pause was executed to give humanity a chance, including rebuking Lorgar because him needed to control when Chaos would come into play. Horus was found first and trained the longest so he could lead a rebellion against his father. Alpharius and Omegon figured it out, and decided to support the Emperor.

 

It's a glorious tapestry of cause and effect. The only question is, did he succeed?

 

SJ

I'd say creating a civilization that lasted for ten thousand years is achievement enough, considering no other culture could even dream of such an achievement in reality. The longest lasting civilization, Rome, which lasted a mere 1,956 years (Founding of Roman Republic to the Fall of Constantinople).

The Chinese had a 5000 year dynasty.

 

SJ

Wrong, the longest lasting Dynasty was the Zhou Dynasty; which lasted a total of 1.302 years.

Let me restate - the Chinese have had a continuation of the same civilization for over 5000 years.

 

SJ

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

The problem with precognition in Warhammer 40k is that the future is fluid in that setting. The Craftworld Eldar have based a large part of their actions around their psyker's abilities to see possible futures and to attempt to direct events to one that they find to be the best of the choices (from their point of view). Nothing indicates to me (in 40k) that an event is set in stone (when it comes to the future, not events that have already happened like writing a story set in the Horus Heresy) and for every action there is a consequence.

 

So I believe the Emperor was attempting to steer Humanity to the best possible future he foresaw that matched with his ideology; but other forces interfered with that resulting in a path that he never intended to happen as he wasn't able to control all factors in the entire galaxy and all dimensions.

[Lay]

Don't know how up-to-date this version of the story is, but anyway:

 

"The Emperor sits on his throne on Earth and dreams of the future. He has single-handedly created the most awesome military force ever known. His genius mapped the genes and artifice of the Primarchs and their Space Marine progeny. His brilliant mind conceived the Grand Plan: the marrying of the great Empires of Earth and Mars and their Great Crusade to rescue mankind from the thrall of aliens and warpbeasts. It was the Emperor who unlocked the potential of the Navigators and enabled humanity to travel vast distances through the warp without peril. But his work is not finished and now he dreams his dreams and his vast intellect calculates the destiny of mankind. Time is against him. His precognitive powers are fading; the pressure to maintain the galaxy-wide signal of the Astronomican grows daily; the future has become clouded and dark. He is aware that others like him are aborning, but weaker than he, less able to fend off the seductive embrace of the Warp and the unknown horrors within."

 

- HH: Collected Visions (2007), pg. 9

[Brother Sefiel]

Greetings

 

I hold a very unpopular belief in that I wish the Horus Heresy was never written as it has been, as a fait-accompli blow-by-blow eye witness account, for it has irrevocably rid the universe of much scale, mythos and mystery.

Not as unpopular as the belief that it was _all_ myth stolen from an earlier myth in order to try to explain the decay of human civilisation.

But I'll still hold to that.

[jeffersonian000]

Greetings

 

 

I hold a very unpopular belief in that I wish the Horus Heresy was never written as it has been, as a fait-accompli blow-by-blow eye witness account, for it has irrevocably rid the universe of much scale, mythos and mystery.

Not as unpopular as the belief that it was _all_ myth stolen from an earlier myth in order to try to explain the decay of human civilisation.

 

But I'll still hold to that.

I hold the belief that the 30k and 40k novels as are docu-dramas from 50k retelling epic sagas of the past, but with "modern" twists.

 

SJ

[Bryan Blaire]

So I believe the Emperor was attempting to steer Humanity to the best possible future he foresaw that matched with his ideology; but other forces interfered with that resulting in a path that he never intended to happen as he wasn't able to control all factors in the entire galaxy and all dimensions.

And in that context, the Emperor is neither all-knowing or all-powerful.

 

Not sure what the Dune comment was in specific reference to, but I do think the story still does very much exhibit that influence. And my comments didn't only stem from Dune, but also from the inherent opposition of fixed fate/destiny and free will as concepts in the human mind, as well as the idea from quantum mechanics that the complementary variables of momentum and position mean if you know one very accurately, the other has corresponding inaccuracy in knowledge (you cannot know precisely where the quantum particle both is currently and precisely where it is moving at the same instant), hence my question of "Could the Emperor alter which side of the equation he was on, and were there any limits to that?"

[choppyred]

So I believe the Emperor was attempting to steer Humanity to the best possible future he foresaw that matched with his ideology; but other forces interfered with that resulting in a path that he never intended to happen as he wasn't able to control all factors in the entire galaxy and all dimensions.

And in that context, the Emperor is neither all-knowing or all-powerful.

Not sure what the Dune comment was in specific reference to, but I do think the story still does very much exhibit that influence. And my comments didn't only stem from Dune, but also from the inherent opposition of fixed fate/destiny and free will as concepts in the human mind, as well as the idea from quantum mechanics that the complementary variables of momentum and position mean if you know one very accurately, the other has corresponding inaccuracy in knowledge (you cannot know precisely where the quantum particle both is currently and precisely where it is moving at the same instant), hence my question of "Could the Emperor alter which side of the equation he was on, and were there any limits to that?"

The Dune reference was for nothing specific just the direction in which this thread was heading as the Emperor seeing all possible futures and trying to choose the best one for mankind in the long run no matter the cost now is almost identical to to Paul Atraides and more so to Leto II and his golden path for mankind. And I just noticed your chapter name and guess that you already know this cool name by the way. Like you say the 30k storyline does still take influence from Dune I just belive that GW and the authors themselves (perhaps A.D.B could let us know) would want to move away from this to somthing a bit more original and unique to the setting. So I guess Im trying to say that anything that parallels Dune is probably not going to be the case for E-dizzel as that is just lazy. As for quantum mechanics without at least a cursory glance at wikipedia I couldn't comment.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

@choppyred But that is the way GW has established precognition as working in warhammer 40k. They see visions of possible futures and they use key moments to direct the course in an attempt to create the desired future. It isn't just a matter of the Emperor, it is a matter of established lore for an entire race and even one of the four great extradimensional xenos (Chaos Gods). Tzeench himself throws a wrench into precognition being linear with one actual path (and brings back up the issue Bryan brought up about free will, do we actually have choices or set actions if everything is fated/destined) as well as Tzeench's own interests guiding multiple plans that often times conflict with one another, as those different plans are shaping different futures in parallel to one another. A glimpse into the immediate future would be nothing like a glimpse into a week from now, or a month, let along decades, centuries, and millennia where you have so many decisions between the now and the then to have to try and navigate through while others are also influencing the choices leading to different choices than those you originally saw when you last looked. That which might be viewed as best for the Emperor and his idealized mankind is most likely going to the detrimental to Xenos like Tzeench (who has multiple agendas running at once) and the Eldar (Craftworlds are going for their own desired futures and Cegorach's own manipulations for his aims) who are also trying to navigate to their own conclusions for the betterment of their own agendas.

Maybe I'm just influence by the fact I don't view the Emperor as a god and don't see indications in any of the stories and fluff, I've read, as the Emperor being the before mentioned omnipotent and/or omniscient. My own head cannon just has him being a scientist from the Dark Age of Technology who used genetic manipulation to grant himself immortality and psychic powers that, over the course of the events of his life, became the Emperor that we know him as and unified Terra.

As to Bryan throwing another wrench into the whole thing with bringing up ideas from quantum mechanics, it becomes even more problematic as the fixed, shall we call it point in future time, that you are aiming for may not actually be the instant that you were aiming for (if my limited understanding is correct on that). Thus the question of, could the Emperor switch from being on the equation of the known "point in future time" to the equation of the unknown "point in future time" to make adjustments as needed to stay on course? (I'm really not sure if I'm just talking out my [redacted] and thus don't actually comprehend what Bryan is talking about.) Hopefully Bryan will be able to correct my errors on this last part.

[choppyred]

Legionaire of the VIIth you had me at Tzeennch. I agree with your head cannon I seem to remember in deliverence lost corax sees several different guises of the emperor including one where he is just a normal middle aged man, as well as the stuff at the start of MOM. Thanks for the help with Bryans quantum mechanics it makes a lot of sense now. I guess GeeDubs didn't have much choice with how precognition works at the end of the day. I love this thread you guys are opening my eyes to new and interesting ways of looking at the 30k/40k universe. Getting back to the OP I am wondering why it was religion that E-dizzle saw as the biggest problem?

[Claws and Effect]

Because the highly religious are typically very resistant to the kind of massive changes he had in mind.

 

To sort of give you a parallel, look at any historical data on the Dark Ages. The church was in control and scientific advancement just stopped completely for several hundred years. Any change to anyone's world view was seen as a threat.

 

It's not much of a stretch to see how the Emperor would encounter problems convincing the various religious leaders to do things his way.

 

At the end of the day, the ban on religion was just a simpler way to move forward than negotiating with thousands of different religions that were going to end up fighting you anyway.

[ViperS]

As for the Emperor's precognition, for all we know he had a vision meant to pull the wool over his eyes a la Horus (only read a few HH books, so other info may invalidate what I'm saying). Maybe he saw the current future in 40k of humans taking warp jumps and hoping they come out clean and tentacle-free on the other side so he embarked on his WW project, not knowing that the steps he was taking were what would alienate his sons and drive them to rebellion, including Magnus's message that disrupted his work.

 

Just a point of quibbling here, RealityBurn. The Dark Ages is a misnomer. Science and technology still advanced across the continent between the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the Renaissance. Europe didn't go to hell because of it (thanks to civilizations like the Byzantines, Carolingians, Lombards, etc). 

[Scribe]

Wow, you guys are really over complicating things.

 

He was neither omnipotent nor omniscient. He could see a path, but as was illustrated in MoM, not the result of every step on that path.

 

The failings of the Emperor was in hubris. In believing his creations would follow his commands, and in underestimating the God's of the setting.

[reckoning]

Wow, you guys are really over complicating things.

 

He was neither omnipotent nor omniscient. He could see a path, but as was illustrated in MoM, not the result of every step on that path.

 

The failings of the Emperor was in hubris. In believing his creations would follow his commands, and in underestimating the God's of the setting.

And, perhaps, overestimating humanity.

[choppyred]

reckoning and Scribe what you are saying is mind blowing, I think hubris is an understatement if what you are suggesting is true then the emperor is gambeling the entire human race on no more than at best an educated guess or at worst a hunch