The Emperor was wrong

[Scribe]

I don't believe it was a gamble, so much as His one shot in the dark.

 

He believes there is one path for humanity to ascend to an awakening without falling like the Elder, that's the end game.

 

His failing is expecting sentient beings to blindly follow his vision, without being given the facts.

 

'A broken Primarch is better than no Primarch' well, no actually. A broken primarch is something like a sick or unstable animal. Dangerous, and able to harm you.

 

The Emperor made several mistakes, and these have been a matter of Canon for over a decade.

 

Authors have tried to present them as well as they could, but it still paints the obvious picture.

 

The Emperor was not infallible, nor all powerful, simply the best humanity had to offer, and he failed.

[jeffersonian000]

Wow, you guys are really over complicating things.

 

He was neither omnipotent nor omniscient. He could see a path, but as was illustrated in MoM, not the result of every step on that path.

 

The failings of the Emperor was in hubris. In believing his creations would follow his commands, and in underestimating the God's of the setting.

I sonewhat disagree. The Emperor saw the target thousands of years in the future, set up shot, made the shot, and everything else that has happened since is that shot arriving. The only question is how close to the bullseye is his shot? Will his shot even hit the target?

 

SJ

[Kristoff]

 

Wow, you guys are really over complicating things.

 

He was neither omnipotent nor omniscient. He could see a path, but as was illustrated in MoM, not the result of every step on that path.

 

The failings of the Emperor was in hubris. In believing his creations would follow his commands, and in underestimating the God's of the setting.

I sonewhat disagree. The Emperor saw the target thousands of years in the future, set up shot, made the shot, and everything else that has happened since is that shot arriving. The only question is how close to the bullseye is his shot? Will his shot even hit the target?

 

SJ

 

 

An interesting point.  What Horus was shown as a possible future came about because of his actions to prevent them.  What if he told them to stuff themselves?  What if they never showed him that future?  Would that future have come to pass?  What if Alpharious and Omegon killed those who showed them a future?

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

The problem is that the future is a moving target and it doesn't just move on a constant trajectory. The Future is being acted upon by many forces requiring those who aim for a particular manifestation to adjusting their aim from time to time or they won't be able to hit it. The last target calculation done by the Emperor is no longer on the mark as the target has shifted directions countless times over the last 10k years. So no I don't agree that the last 10k years are as planned by the Emperor but is instead a shot that is way off course.

 

I think some people have way to much faith in the Emperor and downplay the effects of entities such as Tzeench to think that his plan is even the slightest bit still on course by the 41st millennia.

[Scribe]

 

Wow, you guys are really over complicating things.

 

He was neither omnipotent nor omniscient. He could see a path, but as was illustrated in MoM, not the result of every step on that path.

 

The failings of the Emperor was in hubris. In believing his creations would follow his commands, and in underestimating the God's of the setting.

I sonewhat disagree. The Emperor saw the target thousands of years in the future, set up shot, made the shot, and everything else that has happened since is that shot arriving. The only question is how close to the bullseye is his shot? Will his shot even hit the target?

 

SJ

 

 

No, his shot was the Webway. He missed, Humanity is doomed. 

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

 

Wow, you guys are really over complicating things.

 

He was neither omnipotent nor omniscient. He could see a path, but as was illustrated in MoM, not the result of every step on that path.

 

The failings of the Emperor was in hubris. In believing his creations would follow his commands, and in underestimating the God's of the setting.

I sonewhat disagree. The Emperor saw the target thousands of years in the future, set up shot, made the shot, and everything else that has happened since is that shot arriving. The only question is how close to the bullseye is his shot? Will his shot even hit the target?

 

SJ

No, his shot was the Webway. He missed, Humanity is doomed.

Really?

 

The Emperor may not have been all powerful, but he was far from stupid. I kind of doubt he'd bet the future of the species on ONE plan that required everything to go perfectly. Especially as he certainly knew he wasn't the only force trying to achieve a certain result.

 

Also, as the most powerful human psyker to have ever existed, who is to say he hasn't been able to influence things in some small ways over the kas 10k years? For example, maybe he really IS causing Emperor's Tarot readings to turn out s certain way at important junctures.

[Scribe]

Because I'll take his word for it.

 

I assume you haven't read Master of Mankind.

[MrDarth151]

Because I'll take his word for it.

 

I assume you haven't read Master of Mankind.

 

You mean the book that ADB argued in this very thread, and in afterword, was not supposed to bring definitive answers about the Emperor forwards?

 

The book that is a part of an unfinished story arc that will have follow ups? That Master of Mankind?

 

See, this, this right here, is why I consider that book flawed. Over twenty years of ambiguity and speculations about the Emperor, his plans, his character, his thoughts, his abilities, basically everything about him, cut short because of that book, even though it was never intended to do so.

[choppyred]

Wow, you guys are really over complicating things.

He was neither omnipotent nor omniscient. He could see a path, but as was illustrated in MoM, not the result of every step on that path.

The failings of the Emperor was in hubris. In believing his creations would follow his commands, and in underestimating the God's of the setting.

I sonewhat disagree. The Emperor saw the target thousands of years in the future, set up shot, made the shot, and everything else that has happened since is that shot arriving. The only question is how close to the bullseye is his shot? Will his shot even hit the target?

SJ

No, his shot was the Webway. He missed, Humanity is doomed.

That is what I took away from MOM aswell . Although I found it a great book MrDarth151 for reasons I have explained earlier in the thread.

[Vel'Cona]

Let's keep the discussion to the Emperor and his goals for humanity.  Criticism of BL material is not OT.

[MrDarth151]

True enough, but I would still argue that Master of Mankind is by no means definitive portrayal of the Emperor of Mankind, and we should not take it as such at face value. Yes, even the epilogue, because that Emperor is not the same Emperor that will take the eternal watch over humankind at the end of Horus Heresy. He did not take the Imperial Cult into account in his plans yet, and we haven't touched how that would work in Horus Heresy yet.

[Vel'Cona]

That's fair, I doubt taking any single source as definitive for the Emperor's vision is wise.  We definitely need to consider each source independently and combine/streamline the overarching narrative as much as possible to create informed opinions.  The goal here is to avoid as much subjectivity as we can, though when we start talking about faith versus science it's always a perilous road.

[Scribe]

Regardless, the book very clearly states the importance of the Webway, what its place in his plans where, and this is backed by Path to Heaven. As far as the Emperor is concerned, the loss of the webway is the loss of humanity's hope.

[jeffersonian000]

Regardless, the book very clearly states the importance of the Webway, what its place in his plans where, and this is backed by Path to Heaven. As far as the Emperor is concerned, the loss of the webway is the loss of humanity's hope.

Perhaps. Or it's just a delay.

 

As I see it, we have been given two distinct futures for humanity, both ending in extinction of the species. The short lived victory of Horus versus the long death of the Emperor's ascendence. I believe the Emperor set up his "dominos" the fall somewhere between, to offer humanity a third option. The shattering of the webway pulled that third option closer to the 40k setting as we know it. Horus not winning pushed that third option closer to the 40k as we know it. Is the current setting the second option? Or is it the orchestrated and guided third option?

 

With GW adding to the lore on the eve of 8th and the return of the Primarchs marking a new era for the setting, I'd say the Emperor's 10k year shot hit the target, but maybe not the intended bullseye. GW writes their own history, after all.

 

SJ

[MrDarth151]

Dude, you are arguing that the book is a definitive portrayal of the Emperor of Mankind against the explicit statement from ADB that it is not.

Regardless, the book very clearly states the importance of the Webway, what its place in his plans where, and this is backed by Path to Heaven. As far as the Emperor is concerned, the loss of the webway is the loss of humanity's hope.

You are drawing too far reaching conclusions from the epilogue. Yes, as far as the Emperor is concerned, the Webway was the lynchpin of his current plan, and that was lost.

If the Emperor does not draw up a new plan before the end, then we will talk. Terminus Decree, Grey Knights, founding of the Inquisition with Kyril Sinderman being a founding member and one of the chief proponents of the Imperial Faith... there are multiple things that are yet to be touched upon, and to argue that nothing will come of them before the Emperor is enthroned is ludicrous, unless Black Library decided to abandon all reason and go into full nihilism.

Or do you expect the series to end with The Emperor being enthroned and going "Welp, you are all , scrubs, Chaos Gods have won, there is nothing we can ever do about it, better sterilise yourselves to stop your children from becoming Daemon chow forever and ever, I'm off to be a glorified palace ornament that will never amount to anything ever again!"

Ending narrative arc for The Emperor on the epilogue of Master of Mankind would be so narratively inept that it would make me question Black Library's sanity, much less their writing skills, even if we didn't have explicit statements from ADB that it is not the end of his narrative AND WE DO. So can you please stop making it something it is not?

[Scribe]

*shrug*

 

You all are free to believe whatever you want, there is no current basis in the setting for anything but mankinds doom, but thats fine. Its not trendy to live in such a dark setting, so I'm sure GW will change their core setting attributes to appeal to that wider crowd.

 

ADB saying the arc for the Emperor goes on, does not surprise me, of course it does, until he's a vegetable on a throne.

 

Until such time as it changes, the goal was the Web Way, and isolating humanity from the Warp. That goal has failed, and I sure dont get the impression that there was a meaningful plan B.

 

I'm not going to dig out all the Emperors canonical failures, they have not changed in 15 years, so...look them up.

 

Those failures are not the hallmarks of a supreme being who had mastery of all he saw and touched, but again this is nothing new, just like MoM is not creating anything new, just telling a story.

 

And for what its worth, despite it being known and accepted by those who control the IP and who have been part of the shaping of the lore for the last decade plus, Chaos winning in the long game is not relevant to me. Humanity being doomed is all I care about, and its as of today, yesterday, and the last 15 years, just a simple fact. Humanity is doomed, you will not be missed, and thirsting Gods will laugh for eternity.*

 

*Subject to change at any time by GW.

[Kristoff]

I look at it this way, what you read about the Big E in the books is only what he wants you to perceive.  Yes, it is rather 4th-wall-breaking, but it could also be that he has some plans and perceptions that he hasn't even told himself or were set in place that he never even thinks about them at the time frames of the book.  So we can take it for what it says or look for deeper underpinnings.

 

To be fair, I think Big E took many lessons from Tzeentch and has a thinking pattern almost as labyrinthine.  And the problem with any plan, no matter how "perfect" or "well thought out" has yet to meet an idiot that couldn't throw a spanner in the works.  They may not be an idiot in other areas, but just the right one to throw a complex organism like "The Plan For Humanity" into a charlie foxtrot.  Like allowing the Imperial Cult to build the power of the Ecclisiarchy, for example.  They should have Constantine'd it from the beginning instead of letting it organically grow as it did.

[choppyred]

What we actualy 'know' about the emperor is virtualy nothing for example what is he? 

[Scribe]

What we actualy 'know' about the emperor is virtualy nothing for example what is he? 

 

He is a psyker, born in ancient Turkey, from the reborn combined Soul's of the ancient Shaman who committed mass suicide as the powers of the Gods of the Warp grew to become a threat to their reincarnation.

 

Thats it, until GW changes it.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Didn't Legatus pull out some 2E snippets about how the Emperor was leading humanity on a narrow path to survival last time this discussion came around?

[choppyred]

What we actualy 'know' about the emperor is virtualy nothing for example what is he?

He is a psyker, born in ancient Turkey, from the reborn combined Soul's of the ancient Shaman who committed mass suicide as the powers of the Gods of the Warp grew to become a threat to their reincarnation.

Thats it, until GW changes it.

That fluff is from realm of chaos the lost and the damned so is over 25years old I'm not sure it is still cannon as it does not seem that "star children and sensei" are. Even if it is still cannon there are other options as to what he/it is.

[Scribe]

What other options are there which are not baseless speculation (in universe or out)?

 

Didn't Legatus pull out some 2E snippets about how the Emperor was leading humanity on a narrow path to survival last time this discussion came around?

 

Very possible, the current mood of the setting came in with Chambers and the lead into 3rd Edition.

 

EDIT: I mean lets not forget, 2nd Edition Rogue Trader had a Half Eldar Librarian of the Ultra Marines.

[choppyred]

At the start of MOM he is described as a weapon left over from the dark age one of the characters even says "is he human does he even breath?" and asks Constantine " have you ever heard him breath?" Constantine does not answer the question.

[Scribe]

Thats in universe baseless speculation, unless the Emperor chose to lie when showing a vision of his childhood.

 

He is a potent psyker, no doubt about it, does He need air? Well yes (remember he was being strangled by a PrimOrk), but does he need others to KNOW he needs air? No, he can let them see what he wants.

 

Until I am shown otherwise, those RoC books are definitive truth. :]

[MrDarth151]

*shrug*

 

You all are free to believe whatever you want, there is no current basis in the setting for anything but mankinds doom, but thats fine. Its not trendy to live in such a dark setting, so I'm sure GW will change their core setting attributes to appeal to that wider crowd.

 

That is not true. As most logical absolutes are. The possibility of The Emperor's return or his ascension into pantheon as a God of Humanity were never dismissed outright as impossibilities. Neither have they been confirmed, but that's the thing about ambiguity: It is ambiguous. This has been a thing since second edition of 40k, and codex writers tendency to insert things that suggest victory for all of the factions has not changed.

 

And I would like to believe that 40k is a more complex setting than one that relies on constantly screaming "GRIMDARK!" into my ear.

 

ADB saying the arc for the Emperor goes on, does not surprise me, of course it does, until he's a vegetable on a throne.

 

That's not an arc. That is an event. Character arcs have progression. It is called character development, and it is usually considered a good thing to have.

 

Until such time as it changes, the goal was the Web Way, and isolating humanity from the Warp. That goal has failed, and I sure dont get the impression that there was a meaningful plan B.

 

Because there wasn't, or at least The Master of Mankind would imply as such. That might still change. Especially as Outcast Dead seems to imply there is something more at play here.

 

I'm not going to dig out all the Emperors canonical failures, they have not changed in 15 years, so...look them up.

 

That wouldn't be a very long search, because there surprisingly not that many, all things considered.

 

Those failures are not the hallmarks of a supreme being who had mastery of all he saw and touched, but again this is nothing new, just like MoM is not creating anything new, just telling a story.

 

They are mostly an issue with the most brilliant man of the era being written by ordinary people.

 

What other options are there which are not baseless speculation (in universe or out)?

 

We do not know. That's the point. As far as the current edition of the setting is concerned, about the only fact we know is that he was born in the ancient Anatolia, and even that's questionable, because the only source of that fact is The Emperor himself, and he has every reason to lie if the truth was inconvenient somehow.

 

Very possible, the current mood of the setting came in with Chambers and the lead into 3rd Edition.

 

You do realise that they have never really went away, right? The third edition has been excessively grimdark and that has also been retconned out.