Who and why Horus attempted to convert some of his brothers

[Indefragable]

...but apparently not others. 

 

A topic in a different thread (  http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328057-upcoming-primarch-novellas-your-expectations/page-12    ) about how Mortarion was apparently Horus's second-in-command got me thinking:

 

Who did Horus attempt or not attempt to convert some of his brothers to his cause? Why did he go after some, but not others, and for what reasons?

 

EDIT by Indefragable to save eyeballs: made Hidden

Hidden Content

In John French´s excellent "Warmaster" audio, Horus Lupercal does exactly murmur about the Primarchs who sided with him, and bemoans that the likes of Sanguinius, Ferrus, The Lion etc chose to stand against him, and that as a result, he is left with the broken, damaged and "lesser" of his brothers, being Fulgrim, Lorgar, Angron and the others.

 

I think it fair to say that whilst Mortarion plays second fiddle, he is the closest Horus has to a "reliable" Primarch in his camp - I mean, look at the rest of the lot:

 

Fulgrim - ascended to Daemonhood and entirely subject to his own whims

Angron - caged, rage machine who is entirely consumed with bloodlust and unable to make grand, galaxy-wide strategic plans

Perturabo - he could be a reliable second

Mortarion - he is the reliable, stoic, unfeeling second

Lorgar - religious zealot, who is far gone and entirely unreliable as he is subject to "The gods wills it!!!"

Alpharius - unreliable and untrustworthy in the extreme

Magnus the Red - A very reluctant ally, who was rather "tricked" into Heresy, and that because Horus himself subverted the orders forwarded to Leman Russ.

Konrad Curze - bonkers, bloodthirsty and unreliable as heck, even if he does go "I am Batman Night Haunter!" on Macragge in Unremembered Empire

 

So of alle the Primarchs who sided with Horus, only two would be suitable seconds - Mortarion and Perturabo, both of who seem to have had a greater admiration for Horus than the others...

 

That said, I am very much look forward to a Mortarion Primarchs entry, and hoping it will be done by Chris Wraight!

 

Regards,

Master Ciaphas   

 

 

Good points. I think I do recall Horus musing about the brothers he is left with.

 

To add to/adjust your comments a bit further:

 

NOTE: this is obviously speculation as its my personal attempts to see inside the heads of characters, so take it for what you will:

Hidden Content

 

We'll get the obvious ones out of the way;

These two were just plain nuts and like animals stampeding through a camp, they had their uses, but were by no means "peers" in Horus's eyes: 

 

Angron: point at enemy. clean up mess. repeat. 

 

Curze: let him do his thing behind enemy lines. As chaotic as he and his Legion are to command, they are even more chaotic for the enemy to counter. And that's the whole idea.

 

Well, nevermind then.

These two were the "disappointments;" the ones that Horus planned on having as trusted advisors, but for various reasons he quickly learned they could be barely trusted, let alone controlled: 

 

Fulgrim: they were very close (almost as close as Horus and Sanguinius) pre-Heresy, and Fulgrim was one of the earliest to Turn. Their bond was so close that Horus entrusted Fulgrim with turning a "better" Primarch to their cause: Ferrus. However, Fulgrim clearly was not himself on Isstvaan and Horus quickly realized that though he had gained a weapon, he had lost a friend and trusted advisor. 

 

Lorgar: like the friend who has an idea for a trip, but then leaves all the planning and logistics to you, Lorgar did not pull his weight once the Heresy train left the station. Surprisingly one of the "saner" traitor Primarchs, but almost completely self-serving. He was together enough to babysit Angron for Horus, but Horus soon learned he could only order his brother so far and had to always make sure there was something of self-interest for Lorgar involved. 

 

Category all to himself:

Magnus the Red: the tragic figure, Magnus was a bonus to Horus. If he joined the cause...fantastic! A truly potent asset! If not, then well at least he was removed as a chess piece for the other side. Regardless, he would never be a confidante to Horus

 

Which leaves the other three: 

 

Alpharius: to me, Alpharius was perhaps the one Primarch Horus trusted above all others. Horus was the one to rediscover Alpharius/Omegon and they spent quite a bit of time together before Alphy was ever reintroduced to the Emperor. As a result, I think that Horus relied on Alpharius more than any others. Think of just how much the XX was responsible for in the Heresy: taking on the White Scars, Space Wolves, Raven Guard, and even infiltrating Sol itself....almost simultaneously (more or less, BL timelines are hard to rectify). Horus, of course, thought he knew Alpharius/Omegon's intentions, but that's a whole other story. Regardless, Alpharius could never be second-in-command. Partly because of his unique capabilities for sneaky shenanigans, partly because like Curze and Khan and perhaps 1 or 2 others, he was at his best when given quite a long leash, and partly because as the "youngest" Primarch(s), he simply would never have the peer respect necessary for the scale of the Heresy. And both Alphy and Horus liked it that way. 

 

Mortarion: like the inevitable, unavoidable grim reaper he was likened to, Mortarion makes sense as a second-in-command when compared to the rest of the traitors. Slow yet utterly unyielding, in so many ways the Death Guard were the perfect force to take on the Imperium: slowly-but-surely, never-ever-ever-ever-ever giving way, they were excellent at playing the "long game." That sort of reliability made Morty a sensible choice for a close confidante, especially as it would allow Horus the elbow room to be a bit more brash and daring (I'm thinking the "dead ship" tactic in Vengeful Spirit) with the Sons of Horus.

 

Perturabo: to me, this is the wild card, and the one that could use the most exploring. Hopefully his Primarch novella gives enough nuggets for us to have a better idea. A mathematical genius most adept at attrition warfare and the calculus of long term battles seems like the ideal person to have as a key advisor to someone in Horus's position. Yet (as far as we can tell so far in all the BL works) he is not. Why is this? Is it because he was so reliable he could be sent off on his own with little babysitting needed? Was it because he somehow was lacking in some crucial way? Was he "damaged goods" after the whole Angel Exterminatus episode? I don't really have a guess for this one and would love to hear some ideas. 

 

 

 

...and now that I am on a writing kick, let's go a bit further.

 

How Horus saw the Loyalist Primarchs:

Hidden Content

This is a pretty juicy topic that is fun to explore. Now that we have covered the traitors....what did Horus think of those that opposed him?

 

 

The Istvaan casualties.

What's interesting about these two is that Horus does not seem to pay much heed to their loss* at Istvaan. They are chess pieces removed* from the board...and apparently nothing more. He never comments on them again (apparently?). The absence of any sort of commentary from Horus is perhaps the most telling part of what he thought? Or maybe there was never an opportunity to convert them, so no second thought was spared once they were removed*:

 

Corax 

 

Vulkan

 

*for all intents and purposes, they are effectively removed as effective fighting units for the rest of the Heresy...more or less. Yes there are shattered legion elements and they still do cool things, but you get my point

 

The ones he actively tried to win over. 

Both of these two he put special effort into winning over to his side. That alone shows his regard for them/their capabilities

Ferrus Manus: as discussed elsewhere, he apparently commanded an entire theater of the Great Crusade. That shows he's pretty good. Secondly, he is made overall commander of seven legions during the Istvaan counter-attack. Again, that's not something that can be overlooked. Lastly, he was the third Primarch rediscovered after Horus and Leman Russ. Clearly that adds at least some prestige, if not some confidence in his abilities from Horus's perspective. Horus was eager to have Ferrus on his side, to the point of dispatching Ferrus' closest friend--Fulgrim--as a personal envoy. 

 

Sanguinius: Horus clearly wanted Sangy on his side. Not only because they were very close on a personal level, but because of the sheer enormity of effort that Horus put into attempting to win over--by guile if not by word-- Sanguinius. The entire Signus Prime episode was concocted with the intent of converting Sanguinius to his side. Do we know of any other efforts that come even remotely close to that level of effort? 

 

 

Own category:

Jaghatai Khan: the wildest wild card of them all. And just the way Khan liked it. I love the whole Scars angle where neither side is really sure what side Khan will end up on. I especially like the idea that Horus was not sure and was even less sure of how to get him on his side. 

 

Ones that apparently no attempt was made. 

This is where it gets reaaaaaally interesting, in my eyes. As far as we know (and please correct me if I am wrong), no attempt was ever made to bring any of these brothers over to his side. Why is that? 

 

Roboute Guilliman: the overall most-rounded Primarch after perhaps Horus himself. Has his own fully self-sufficient pocket-empire. You'd think he would be the target for corruption...yet is any attempt made? Perhaps Lorgar torpedoe'd the idea from the beginning out of spite? Perhaps RG was too jealous of Horus's position as Warmaster on some level? Pretty interesting when you stop to think about it.

 

Rogal Dorn: at first glance, this one is the most obvious: Dorn guards Terra itself and is physically beside the Emperor and Malcador more than any other brother. Yet, to my mind, that is exactly the kind of challenge that Horus would relish: a treacherous blow struck from behind. Could Dorn be given Sol as a personal empire in return? What price the betrayal of Dorn? Again, it's probably obvious: something in Dorn's character made him utterly loyal and incorruptible....but that doesn't mean it's not fun to think about

 

Leman Russ: the "executioner" used to the hard tasks and operating alone. There are some implications that Russ and his legion were designed from the start as the "anti-Astartes" Astartes...wouldnt that be the perfect force at your side to take on the Imperium with? There is obviously some history between Horus and Russ considering they were the first 2 Primarchs discovered. Yet again, it appears that 0 attempt was made to convert Russ. Perhaps it was a bitter rivalry between the brothers from the start? Perhaps, akin to the above about Dorn, there was something about his character that made him bitterly loyal to the end? 

 

Lion El'Jonson: this is the most interesting to me...and like Perturabo, I don't have a good guess for it. The Lion was clearly a bit aloof and prone to doing his own thing....unexpectedly at that (love the comment from Angels of Caliban where Horus says "you've managed to do the one thing no enemy ever has: catch me unawares."). Was he too loyal? Too unpredictable? Too.....self-centered? This one is pretty intriguing. Did Horus make any effort to convert the Lion? 

 

Bonus: 

Constantin Valdor: "hey Conny, I got this idea of rebelling and I want you to join me. I--hello? Hello? Conny, you there? Hello....."

 

 

What do you think?  

[Phatsquirre1]

Pretty cool ideas, the only one I disagree with is your opinion of the relationship between Alpharius and Horus. Certainly, he was closer to Alpharius than most Primarchs, but in Book III: Extermination it highlights how Horus "neither trusted it nor its master to obey him, nor fight the war he wished them to fight once the hydra had been unchained." (Pg. 85).

Granted, I haven't read many of the other Horus/Alpharius interactions, but it sounds like in his own way Horus knew the Alpha Legion were almost as unreliable as the World Eaters- a less direct version of the "point and release" tactics, and one that was infinitely better at undermining the core of the Imperium during the campaign. In my opinion, it seems like the XXth were more akin to guerrillas/insurgents than a real fighting force- one that could not be suppressed once released, and ultimately only interested in their own personal goals. That makes them a real wild card for Horus and certainly removes the ability to trust the legion as a force on the larger scale.

Personally, I would be interested to see either a) what might've happened to Alpharius and Horus should Horus have won the heresy, and whether or not the Alpha legion would stop their "shadow war" once he had achieved victory, or what the outcome would have been if the XXth had stayed loyal (and not in the Legion sense, but legitimately supported the Emperor).

Now, in terms of the Primarchs he never approached (Guilliman, Dorn, Russ) it seems like Horus chose not to approach them out of pragmatism. He likely saw their solid relationship with the Imperial Throne for what it was, and judged them (accurately) to be too loyal to risk unveiling his overall strategy, which is why so many of them were so out of place when the Heresy began. Especially since Fulgrim couldn't convert Ferrus, and couldn't/didn't kill him, either- if one Primarch had been approached and rejected the offer, that would've left Horus with (at best) a loyalist who had knowledge of the heresy, who could potentially warn the Emperor and rally the other legions.

[choppyred]

For Perturabo I think the only reason he became a traitor was the Olympia genocide without that he would have remaind loyal so Horus couldn't trust him that much, here is a quote from first heretc.

 

 " All of the primarchs plans are comming to fruition. That, in truth is why I returned. Olympia was in open rebellion against the imperium and the Iron Warriors declared war on their own people in desperation to pacify their home world"

 Now that is a conversation between two word bearers so it means that Lorgar organised the problems on Olyimpa to bring Perturabo on side if Perty ever found out he would be sure to go ape so could not be trusted as a "key" part of the rebellion.

[Indefragable]

Pretty cool ideas, the only one I disagree with is your opinion of the relationship between Alpharius and Horus. Certainly, he was closer to Alpharius than most Primarchs, but in Book III: Extermination it highlights how Horus "neither trusted it nor its master to obey him, nor fight the war he wished them to fight once the hydra had been unchained." (Pg. 85).

Granted, I haven't read many of the other Horus/Alpharius interactions, but it sounds like in his own way Horus knew the Alpha Legion were almost as unreliable as the World Eaters- a less direct version of the "point and release" tactics, and one that was infinitely better at undermining the core of the Imperium during the campaign. In my opinion, it seems like the XXth were more akin to guerrillas/insurgents than a real fighting force- one that could not be suppressed once released, and ultimately only interested in their own personal goals. That makes them a real wild card for Horus and certainly removes the ability to trust the legion as a force on the larger scale.

Personally, I would be interested to see either a) what might've happened to Alpharius and Horus should Horus have won the heresy, and whether or not the Alpha legion would stop their "shadow war" once he had achieved victory, or what the outcome would have been if the XXth had stayed loyal (and not in the Legion sense, but legitimately supported the Emperor).

Ok good point, especailly regarding the the quote from Extermination. Obviously we all can't read everything in this hobby :)

What I find interesting is just how often the XX seem to be deployed in "straight up" fights. Istvaan: they're regular ol' space marine boots on the ground. Against the V and VI they also seem to be deployed in pretty standard tactics. For all their specialization in cloak-and-dagger-Keyser Soze stuff, they seem to fight a lot of "normal" fights.

It would certainly have been quite interesting if the XX had remained openly loyal to the Emperor.

For Perturabo I think the only reason he became a traitor was the Olympia genocide without that he would have remaind loyal so Horus couldn't trust him that much, here is a quote from first heretc.

" All of the primarchs plans are comming to fruition. That, in truth is why I returned. Olympia was in open rebellion against the imperium and the Iron Warriors declared war on their own people in desperation to pacify their home world"

Now that is a conversation between two word bearers so it means that Lorgar organised the problems on Olyimpa to bring Perturabo on side if Perty ever found out he would be sure to go ape so could not be trusted as a "key" part of the rebellion.

Ah. Interesting. Poor Perturabo....never getting a fair shake.

[choppyred]

For Dorn in Horus rising it is said of Dorn that his crusade record was second only to Horus's own, so I think that Horus's pride would get in the way of asking his actual number 2 to be his number 2.

[Phatsquirre1]

Ok good point, especailly regarding the the quote from Extermination. Obviously we all can't read everything in this hobby

What I find interesting is just how often the XX seem to be deployed in "straight up" fights. Istvaan: they're regular ol' space marine boots on the ground. Against the V and VI they also seem to be deployed in pretty standard tactics. For all their specialization in cloak-and-dagger-Keyser Soze stuff, they seem to fight a lot of "normal" fights.

It would certainly have been quite interesting if the XX had remained openly loyal to the Emperor.

Don't get me wrong, I think the XXth were just as good (if not better) at fighting face to face as the other legions. The real problem was with whether or not they would go ahead and do so in the way Horus wanted.

Believe me, I loved how my beautiful IVth were smashed by the Alpha Legion under Dynat on Paramar. I 100% did not expect that. (Just as planned...)

[Lord Asvaldir]

I think there's an important consideration you have to take into account for which primarch's Horus didn't attempt at all to convert to his cause, and that is that if Horus was just wrong about one primarch when he tried to convert that one primarch to his cause, it could undo his whole plan. Just one primarch telling the emperor about Horus's conversion attempt could be the end the heresy before it began, or Horus would have been forced to kill one of his brothers which would have been equally problematic and difficult to explain. For that reason Horus could only go to primarchs he was almost certain he could convert to his cause, which automatically cuts out primarchs like Guilliman and Dorn. 

 

Another consideration is that although Horus seems like the most well loved primarch by his brothers, his shaky relationship with some primarchs would probably gotten in the way of his attempt to convert certain primarchs even if they might be willing to turn. Guilliman in particular comes to mind, because I imagine with a lot of half truths and lies Guilliman could be swayed, but probably not by Horus. 

 

Also as far as the Horus's second in command debate goes, when considering Alpharius his motives and secrets are so twisted it seems impossible for me to really determine if he would be reliable or not. Go figure for the primarch of the Alpha Legion..

 

If Fulgrim didn't start becoming possessed by the daemon in the Blade of Laer, I bet he would have become Horus's second given their close bond pre heresy. 

[Indefragable]

For Dorn in Horus rising it is said of Dorn that his crusade record was second only to Horus's own, so I think that Horus's pride would get in the way of asking his actual number 2 to be his number 2.

 

I remember that...but I wonder if that will be retconned or "fog of war" or whatever GW likes to say when their lore does not match up. This is not a knock on Dorn or the VII in any way, but it seems like a bunch of different legions are listed as being "2nd only to the Luna Wolves in worlds conquered/battles fought/beers drank." Wasn't the XIII only behind the XVI?

 

I think there's an important consideration you have to take into account for which primarch's Horus didn't attempt at all to convert to his cause, and that is that if Horus was just wrong about one primarch when he tried to convert that one primarch to his cause, it could undo his whole plan. Just one primarch telling the emperor about Horus's conversion attempt could be the end the heresy before it began, or Horus would have been forced to kill one of his brothers which would have been equally problematic and difficult to explain. For that reason Horus could only go to primarchs he was almost certain he could convert to his cause, which automatically cuts out primarchs like Guilliman and Dorn. 

 

Another consideration is that although Horus seems like the most well loved primarch by his brothers, his shaky relationship with some primarchs would probably gotten in the way of his attempt to convert certain primarchs even if they might be willing to turn. Guilliman in particular comes to mind, because I imagine with a lot of half truths and lies Guilliman could be swayed, but probably not by Horus. 

 

Also as far as the Horus's second in command debate goes, when considering Alpharius his motives and secrets are so twisted it seems impossible for me to really determine if he would be reliable or not. Go figure for the primarch of the Alpha Legion..

 

If Fulgrim didn't start becoming possessed by the daemon in the Blade of Laer, I bet he would have become Horus's second given their close bond pre heresy. 

 

A very good point about "chance of actually converting." That absolutely factors in, and I suppose some covert attempts were made to get a better feel for each brother. Still, look at what he did with Sanguinius...certainly a pretty loyal Primarch by any stretch of hte imagination, yet Horus planned perhaps the single most elaborate attempt at converting him. Logistics aside (how many greater daemons are hanging in the unemployment line?), could not similar efforts be attempted for other Primarchs if the chance of them converting far outweiged the risk of them not converting? 

 

I absolutely agree that Fulgrim was a lock for #2 if he hadn't caught a mild case of possession. 

[Lord Asvaldir]

Only way I can think of to justify why Horus made such a big plan to convert him and not other loyalist primarchs is that because of the close bond between them, Horus wanted Sanguinius on his side so he was willing to make such an elaborate plan. Horus probably wouldn't have been willing to go to the same lengths for Dorn or Guilliman because he wasn't close with them. 

[Xisor]

An interesting point in favour of all this, especially given that the reality of Chaos was still vague, early on (e.g. rebellion rather than heresy), isn't quite so much the "chance of success" (though it absolutely apllies), but the... chance of opposition.

 

E.g. what is the risk of misjusging people?

 

With Ferrus, say: minor risk. As an enemy, Horus thinks he can play him.

 

Corax, on the otherhand: I think here, we have an intriguing possibility that Horus thought "if Corax finds out, it'll be hell" - e.g. if Horus tries to convince Corax and Corax gets wind of the big idea, Corax and his Legion might immediately go to ground and become an impossible thorn (as the Scars eventually become).

 

Aptly, that draws us to the Khan: I don't think Horus thought he could win him, but I think Horus was close to the money - there was only a small chance of the Khan decidedly *opposing* him.

 

In Scars:

 

magine if the Khan arrived at Prospero and found everything to have been a kerfuffle/misunderstanding, not a world shattering revelation. Even then, if the Khan had come down on the side of "Magnus truly is unwise".

 

Whilst Jaghatai seems true to himself as the story has gone, I'm sceptical of whether that truly applies. More probably, I wonder if everyone expected him to look at it all as a storm in a teacup, beneath his notice, save for an odd edge of help.

 

 

It's also makes sense why some of the Primarchs were targeted for obliteration - Guilliman, Corax, Vulkan - very likely to oppose, very unlikely to standby and see what happens, and without much hope for subversion.

 

----

 

There is a side issue. Much of Perturabo and Mortarion's motivation for being sympathetic to rebellion does apply to Corax too. Hatred of tyranny and autocracy. I really hope the Corax primarch novel sheds light on the pre-existing "bad blood" between Corax and the Emperor. If anyone was to object to the *state* of the Imperium for... ethical reasons, I could see it being Corax, Mortarion, Perturabo, Vulkan, and Guilliman - which is fascinating to speculate on. Horus, oddly, seems an odd choice to start resenting Terra (as per False Gods).

 

Anyway. Neat thread!

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Corax had sworn to never serve under Horus again after Gate 42.

 

Corax was concerned with the influence Horus had in his Legion

[Memento Of Prospero]

A few things to be addressed:

 

Horus did not want Sanguinius on his side. He wanted him slain. It's the wordbearers and Khorne who wanted to turn him, this is covered in Fear to Thread. He hated that deep down, he felt Sanguinius should have been warmaster, especially when he turned.

 

As opposed to the Raven Guard and the Salamanders, the Iron Hands were not off the chess board, despite losing their Primarch, as the majority of the legion was not at Isstvan following the failed Fulgrim gambit. The fluidity of the legion chain of command and available war materiel also helps in this.

 

Mortharion is not not in any capacity Horus's second in command. The only reason this is brought up is because of Path of Heaven, where he goads Mortarion into chasing after the Khan. As for reliability, do I have to remind anyone that he actually tried to recruit the Khan into a splinter faction?

 

Lorgar is certainly not self serving - Horus is self serving. His reasons for turning are born of a misguided nobility, (finding the truth for the galaxy to benefit) and he is the only one who cared for Angron's condition and tries to save him. How can you say he does not pull his weight, when he orchestrated the downfall of Horus, set the stage for Calth and the Ruin Storm and Save Angron from an imminent death. Name a primarchs other than Horus who does more significant things. There are none.

 

Lastly, If you are looking to stir a rebellion, you convert those who just need an excuse first (Konrad, Angron), the ones with greivances (Fulgrim, Perturabo, Mortarion),  next and you kill the ones that have no particular reason to and maybe have a chance change of heart (Magnus). You don't make attempts regardless of their strategical value if it means losing the element of suprise. 

[Nova_Dew]

If i remember Fear to tread correctly it was Logar who wanted to convert Sanguinius and that was the reason for the Word bearers ships being present in the Signus Prime fleet, while Horus knew he had to destroy the Blood Angels due to their almost Word Bearer level of fanatical loyalty to the ideals of the Great Crusade.

[choppyred]

For Dorn in Horus rising it is said of Dorn that his crusade record was second only to Horus's own, so I think that Horus's pride would get in the way of asking his actual number 2 to be his number 2.

I remember that...but I wonder if that will be retconned or "fog of war" or whatever GW likes to say when their lore does not match up. This is not a knock on Dorn or the VII in any way, but it seems like a bunch of different legions are listed as being "2nd only to the Luna Wolves in worlds conquered/battles fought/beers drank." Wasn't the XIII only behind the XVI?

True like Dorns awsome moustache , for Guilliman I would say that he had the most to lose by turning traitor for the reasons you mention in the OP, so I would think that Horus wouldn't even bother trying. IIRC Horus was just plain scared of Sangui-baby being against him.

[Indefragable]

An interesting point in favour of all this, especially given that the reality of Chaos was still vague, early on (e.g. rebellion rather than heresy), isn't quite so much the "chance of success" (though it absolutely apllies), but the... chance of opposition.

 

E.g. what is the risk of misjusging people?

 

With Ferrus, say: minor risk. As an enemy, Horus thinks he can play him.

 

Corax, on the otherhand: I think here, we have an intriguing possibility that Horus thought "if Corax finds out, it'll be hell" - e.g. if Horus tries to convince Corax and Corax gets wind of the big idea, Corax and his Legion might immediately go to ground and become an impossible thorn (as the Scars eventually become).

 

Aptly, that draws us to the Khan: I don't think Horus thought he could win him, but I think Horus was close to the money - there was only a small chance of the Khan decidedly *opposing* him.

 

In Scars:

 

magine if the Khan arrived at Prospero and found everything to have been a kerfuffle/misunderstanding, not a world shattering revelation. Even then, if the Khan had come down on the side of "Magnus truly is unwise".

 

Whilst Jaghatai seems true to himself as the story has gone, I'm sceptical of whether that truly applies. More probably, I wonder if everyone expected him to look at it all as a storm in a teacup, beneath his notice, save for an odd edge of help.

 

 

It's also makes sense why some of the Primarchs were targeted for obliteration - Guilliman, Corax, Vulkan - very likely to oppose, very unlikely to standby and see what happens, and without much hope for subversion.

 

----

 

There is a side issue. Much of Perturabo and Mortarion's motivation for being sympathetic to rebellion does apply to Corax too. Hatred of tyranny and autocracy. I really hope the Corax primarch novel sheds light on the pre-existing "bad blood" between Corax and the Emperor. If anyone was to object to the *state* of the Imperium for... ethical reasons, I could see it being Corax, Mortarion, Perturabo, Vulkan, and Guilliman - which is fascinating to speculate on. Horus, oddly, seems an odd choice to start resenting Terra (as per False Gods).

 

Anyway. Neat thread!

 

The Ferrus thing is interesting. One has to wonder if Horus specifically tried to convert him because he knew Ferrus would be the most likely brother to lead a counter-attack....thus, it was a "no lose" proposition, especially given the Fulgrim leverage. 

 

Great point about Corax....I forgot that whole angle!

 

Corax had sworn to never serve under Horus again after Gate 42.

 

Corax was concerned with the influence Horus had in his Legion

 

Where is the Gate 42 material featured? I have heard of it and it sounds quite interesting, but don't know where to find it. I don't recall any reference to it in Deliverance Lost though it has been a while. 

 

A few things to be addressed:

 

Horus did not want Sanguinius on his side. He wanted him slain. It's the wordbearers and Khorne who wanted to turn him, this is covered in Fear to Thread. He hated that deep down, he felt Sanguinius should have been warmaster, especially when he turned.

 

As opposed to the Raven Guard and the Salamanders, the Iron Hands were not off the chess board, despite losing their Primarch, as the majority of the legion was not at Isstvan following the failed Fulgrim gambit. The fluidity of the legion chain of command and available war materiel also helps in this.

 

Mortharion is not not in any capacity Horus's second in command. The only reason this is brought up is because of Path of Heaven, where he goads Mortarion into chasing after the Khan. As for reliability, do I have to remind anyone that he actually tried to recruit the Khan into a splinter faction?

 

Lorgar is certainly not self serving - Horus is self serving. His reasons for turning are born of a misguided nobility, (finding the truth for the galaxy to benefit) and he is the only one who cared for Angron's condition and tries to save him. How can you say he does not pull his weight, when he orchestrated the downfall of Horus, set the stage for Calth and the Ruin Storm and Save Angron from an imminent death. Name a primarchs other than Horus who does more significant things. There are none.

 

Lastly, If you are looking to stir a rebellion, you convert those who just need an excuse first (Konrad, Angron), the ones with greivances (Fulgrim, Perturabo, Mortarion),  next and you kill the ones that have no particular reason to and maybe have a chance change of heart (Magnus). You don't make attempts regardless of their strategical value if it means losing the element of suprise. 

 

It's been a while since I read Fear to Tread, so good catch there regarding Horus looking to destroy the IX whereas Lorgar wants to convert them. That being said....does Lorgar know about the flaw in the bloodline of Sanguinius? Does Horus share that with him? I honestly don't recall. 

 

As for the selfishness of Lorgar....

 

We're discussing all this from Horus's perspective. Horus is the general and leader of the entire movement and gets the entire  _____ Heresy named after him. Lorgar undoubtedly did more to bring down the Imperium and sow galactic strife, corrupt worlds, unleash chaos, etc.... but as soon as Horus stepped up to the plate it became his show. So....from Horus's perspective (again, we are guessing at fictional character's inner thoughts here), he considered Lorgar as self-serving because Lorgar served the powers that Horus served, rather than Horus himself. Make sense? Lorgar was a great warrior for the cause, but not necessarily a good soldier, if you will. The XVII do more than pretty much anyone else for the cause of Chaos...but Horus is an instrument of Chaos and so they only work with him/explicitly obey him out of expediency or when their aims and his align (which is fairly often, especially in the opening moments of the heresy). 

 

If i remember Fear to tread correctly it was Logar who wanted to convert Sanguinius and that was the reason for the Word bearers ships being present in the Signus Prime fleet, while Horus knew he had to destroy the Blood Angels due to their almost Word Bearer level of fanatical loyalty to the ideals of the Great Crusade.

 

Good catch as well. 

[okonomiyakimarine]

A few things to be addressed:

(...)

Lastly, If you are looking to stir a rebellion, you convert those who just need an excuse first (Konrad, Angron), the ones with greivances (Fulgrim, Perturabo, Mortarion),  next and you kill the ones that have no particular reason to and maybe have a chance change of heart (Magnus). You don't make attempts regardless of their strategical value if it means losing the element of suprise. 

 this sums it up perfectly! only want to add that Horus - like all - was totally in the dark about the Khan, as was the Khan. the only exception to this might be Magnus, who could have ended up on (n)either side, but: just as planned!

[Nova_Dew]

I think Guilliman could be considered a traitor in a way, bear with me on this one there's more then a little circular thinking going on here, (puts on tin foil hat)

 

1. Guilliman looses contact with any Imperial forces so he thinks it's fallen and creates Imperium Secundus (ok that makes sense)

2. Sanguinius and The Lion turn up (with the night hunter) Guilliman then puts one of them in charge of the armed forces ,The Lion, and the other in overall command of the Empire (kinda odd since they are Guillman's people and they know him as their leader)

3. they regain contact with Terra and a way through to Terra and as far as we know at the moment only Sanguinius goes to Terra, The Lion goes to deal with Lion stuff and Guilliman does... something

 

It kind of looks like Guilliman sets up his own pocket empire and puts someone else in charge so he can dodge the blame if anyone from Terra comes knocking (or i dont want Guilliman to be so much the white hat super good guy, I have not read past unremembered empire so some of it could be explained by later books, if so can someone pm me a brief run down on events I will be thankful)

 

My own head cannon is that when Sanguinius shows up on Terra, the Big E asks where Guilliman is and Sanguinius replies with ruling his own pocket empire, The Emperor then decides he will have words with Guilliman after the whole Horus thing is dealt with but instead snuffs it along with Sanguinius (two of the four with any power who know about it, the other two not saying anything since one created a pocket empire and the other had a big chunk of their legion decide not to play happy families) fast forwards to 40K and Guilliman wakes up with a bunch of custodes with the Emperors sword saying "you've been a naughty boy, dad says save the day or you're grounded...

 

 

Ok I may need to cut down on the caffeine a lot

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Gate 42 is discussed in FW's Raven Guard release

 

Gist is that a system Horus conquered turns traitor just after he becomes war master. Horus wants to utterly crush them as a sign to any who thinks the new guy is a push over.

The Sons of Horus, Space Wolves, Iron Warriors and Raven Guard are assembled to be the hammer. At the final battle, Gate 42 must be taken and Horus elects Corax and the RG for a frontal assault. Corax protests over how useless it is, and how his legion can take the gate in a less costly manner

 

Perturabo calls him a coward.

Russ has to seperate them, and says that the Emperor made Horus the warmaster for a reason, and convinces Corax to follow the plan.

Corax takes all the officers of the RG with the most loyalty to Horus (mostly Terrans who served in the Legion before Corax, under Horus's command) and puts them in the vanguard of the attack. They are massacred, and it takes a final push from Corax (who fought along them) to finally take Gate 42.

Corax leaves bitter at the treatment of the RG, and swears to no longer serve under the Warmasters command.

 

Funny enough, the mass losses of the RG also removed just about all the warrior lodges from the Legion, leaving those loyal to Corax.

 

Corax is also angry over how Horus used the RG prior to his arrival, thinking Horus inflated his victory tally using the RG legion as an extension of his own.

[Indefragable]

Gate 42 is discussed in FW's Raven Guard release

 

Gist is that a system Horus conquered turns traitor just after he becomes war master. Horus wants to utterly crush them as a sign to any who thinks the new guy is a push over.

The Sons of Horus, Space Wolves, Iron Warriors and Raven Guard are assembled to be the hammer. At the final battle, Gate 42 must be taken and Horus elects Corax and the RG for a frontal assault. Corax protests over how useless it is, and how his legion can take the gate in a less costly manner

 

Perturabo calls him a coward.

Russ has to seperate them, and says that the Emperor made Horus the warmaster for a reason, and convinces Corax to follow the plan.

Corax takes all the officers of the RG with the most loyalty to Horus (mostly Terrans who served in the Legion before Corax, under Horus's command) and puts them in the vanguard of the attack. They are massacred, and it takes a final push from Corax (who fought along them) to finally take Gate 42.

Corax leaves bitter at the treatment of the RG, and swears to no longer serve under the Warmasters command.

 

Funny enough, the mass losses of the RG also removed just about all the warrior lodges from the Legion, leaving those loyal to Corax.

 

Corax is also angry over how Horus used the RG prior to his arrival, thinking Horus inflated his victory tally using the RG legion as an extension of his own.

 

I don't see the problem. Can't Horus just offer Corax a klondike bar? 

 

(that's a joke). 

 

Thanks for the details!

[bluntblade]

Mortarion and Perturabo were never Horus' first choices for lieutenants. Both are insular, with deeply ingrained ways of getting things done, and aren't on great terms with most of their brothers. When you look at his lineup of the brothers he believed he could get on side, Ferrus and Fulgrim are plainly the best candidates for his right and left hands. Ferrus in paticular has a seniority and breadth of experience that count for a lot. We've seen that, some tensions notwithstanding, he can get the likes of Mortarion to work under him. The Iron Warriors and the Death Guard have up to now been, respectively, bogged down at sieges and garrison duty in places no one else was willing to go, or slogging away at the margins on worlds that no one else could fight effectively on.

 

Take this thinking beyond the Legions, too. A Primarch's allegiance matters to the worlds he conquered and factions he interacted with. House Vyrydion, for example, declared for Horus because of their history with Fulgrim. Worlds delivered from xenos occupation by the Iron Hands might consider that, well, it wasn't the Emperor Himself who came to them.

 

The chief issue with Lorgar, I would say, is that he has a well developed agenda. Horus might not see Aurelian's intentions towards him as being malicious, but he knows his brother has been "walking in the light" for decades, and he has already be manipulated as part of that scheme. Poor, weak Lorgar, dismissed for so long as trying to redeem his Legion, has been plotting insurrection against the Emperor himself, in secret. This means a vast number of unknowns, and Horus is accordingly wary of him.

 

As for the Khan, I think Horus was overwhelmingly sure that the Khan would side with him. The whole Prospero thing was allowed to happen because of the Alpha Legion's actions. Horus intended to have the Scars assault the Wolves at Alaxxes.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Indefragable: you're very welcome. I would have gone into greater detail except for the fact I'm still stuck at work.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Perturabo calls him a coward.

Russ has to seperate them, and says that the Emperor made Horus the warmaster for a reason, and convinces Corax to follow the plan.

Corax takes all the officers of the RG with the most loyalty to Horus (mostly Terrans who served in the Legion before Corax, under Horus's command) and puts them in the vanguard of the attack. They are massacred, and it takes a final push from Corax (who fought along them) to finally take Gate 42.

Corax leaves bitter at the treatment of the RG, and swears to no longer serve under the Warmasters command.

One thing to add, that often seems to get overlooked in the story, in favour of the 'Corax hated the Terrans and wanted them sacrificed' idea, is that many of those Terran Legionaries were also the parts of the Legion most enthused with Horus' plan. Especially as Corax had already sent many of the old XIXth away in the nomad fleets before that battle, that incident always read more like Corax sending those men who actually wanted the mission first, rather than a selective purge of undesirables (that having already happened when Fal and co. were sent away upon Corax's accession to command).

[TheRealMcCagh]

If i remember Fear to tread correctly it was Logar who wanted to convert Sanguinius and that was the reason for the Word bearers ships being present in the Signus Prime fleet, while Horus knew he had to destroy the Blood Angels due to their almost Word Bearer level of fanatical loyalty to the ideals of the Great Crusade.

 

Lorgar knew Signus Prime was destined to fail. During a talk with Horus, Horus inquires something to the effect of "how is Signus Prime going?" to which Lorgar says "that's your problem man, I'm focusing on things that actually matter (Ultramarines and Shadow Crusade). You and Erebus think you can sway the Angel, but I *know* he will be at Terra when the final battle comes." Fear to Tread seems to suggest Erebus wanted to get Sanguinius on their side, Horus wanted him killed, and Lorgar was just preparing for Sanguinius to be an obstacle at the end.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

Perturabo calls him a coward.

Russ has to seperate them, and says that the Emperor made Horus the warmaster for a reason, and convinces Corax to follow the plan.

Corax takes all the officers of the RG with the most loyalty to Horus (mostly Terrans who served in the Legion before Corax, under Horus's command) and puts them in the vanguard of the attack. They are massacred, and it takes a final push from Corax (who fought along them) to finally take Gate 42.

Corax leaves bitter at the treatment of the RG, and swears to no longer serve under the Warmasters command.

One thing to add, that often seems to get overlooked in the story, in favour of the 'Corax hated the Terrans and wanted them sacrificed' idea, is that many of those Terran Legionaries were also the parts of the Legion most enthused with Horus' plan. Especially as Corax had already sent many of the old XIXth away in the nomad fleets before that battle, that incident always read more like Corax sending those men who actually wanted the mission first, rather than a selective purge of undesirables (that having already happened when Fal and co. were sent away upon Corax's accession to command).

 

 

Solid point, and one I didnt elaborate on in great detail due to the method of posting.