Drop Assault Vanguard RoW Effects and Limitations

[Ghorgul]

Hi all,

 

I was posting to other thread about one RoW limitation thingy, and I was reading the rules for Drop Assault Vanguard. Some the effects and limitations are kind of ambiguous:

 

1.

In Limitations:

"Only units that can deploy via Deep Strike or embarked upon a Transport vehicle with the Flyer type may be taken in the army."

I think the 1st part is commonly interpreted that units that have ability to Deep Strike can be used, but do not need to Deep Strike.
2nd part however is the ambiguous one:

"Only units that can deploy... embarked upon a Transport vehicle with the Flyer type may be taken in the army."

How I would interpret this is that once again you are not forced to Deep Strike the hypothetical unit. However you need to have the capability to Deep Strike them in a Flyer. I assume this means I could deploy infiltrating and scouting Legion Recon Squad if I have a Flyer capable to hold the unit, such as Dreadclaw, Storm Eagle or Caestus?

So for example, would Legion Recon Squad deployed on table with empty Storm Eagle in Reserves be legal with this Row?

 

2.

In Effects:

"At least half of the Legion Assault Squads in the army must always enter play using the Deep Strike special rules. At the beginning of the controlling player’s first turn, this ‘Assault Vanguard’ may deploy all of its Legion Assault Squads at once."

I understand this that the Deep Striking part of Legion Assault Squads is the 'Assault Vanguard'.

Second rule in effects states:

"In the player turn after that in which the Assault Vanguard deploys, enemy models within 12” may only fire Snap Shots against them."

To me the above quote states that any enemy unit within 12" of 'Assault Vanguard' (= any unit part of assault vanguard) can only fire Snap Shots against the Assault Vanguard. This would make the RoW somewhat useable if it worked this way.

Earlier I had quickly read the Effects and understood that they can Snap Shot only against the specific unit within 12", which would make the RoW quite horrible, as if you Deep Strike multiple its not very likely you can land within 12" of multiple enemy units, allowing the, at best, 1-2 units within 12" to walk away, while the others can happily fire at will at your Vanguard.

 

So does the 12" Snap Shot "cloud" include collectively all the enemy units within 12" of any unit of Assault vanguard or only the individual units within 12" of specific unit of Assault Vanguard?

 

If both would work as I assumed there above, it would make the RoW ok, as I could get infiltrating scouting Nuncio-vox to enemy lines and then it would be easier to Force the opponent to only Snap Shot for a turn.
Powerful yes, Fluffy yes, but imbalanced, maybe not as it's quite a lot of points for Recon Squad and Storm Eagle which by themselves aren't super efficient units.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Ghorgul

[Hfran Morkai]

I'm afraid I don't have a strongly calculated position on this topic yet but I'm intrigued to follow the discussion for it's potential ports to an Orbital Assault list as for my VIth Legion I really wanted a couple of recon squads acting as forward observers for an Orbital Deployment. Once again it doesn't say they need to deep strike, just have the ability to deep strike.

 

Then I'd have an empty Drop Pod for playing the numbers game hah.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

There's nothing ambiguous about the RoW formulation.  

 

And in my eyes, people trying to de-construct the various RoW syllable by syllable are merely fishing for advantages. Which is not very much in the spirit of 30k ...

 

posting to other thread about one RoW limitation thingy, and I was reading the rules for Drop Assault Vanguard. Some the effects and limitations are kind of ambiguous:

 

1.

In Limitations:

"Only units that can deploy via Deep Strike or embarked upon a Transport vehicle with the Flyer type may be taken in the army."

I think the 1st part is commonly interpreted that units that have ability to Deep Strike can be used, but do not need to Deep Strike.

 

This is indeed true.

2nd part however is the ambiguous one:

"Only units that can deploy... embarked upon a Transport vehicle with the Flyer type may be taken in the army."

How I would interpret this is that once again you are not forced to Deep Strike the hypothetical unit. However you need to have the capability to Deep Strike them in a Flyer. I assume this means I could deploy infiltrating and scouting Legion Recon Squad if I have a Flyer capable to hold the unit, such as Dreadclaw, Storm Eagle or Caestus?

So for example, would Legion Recon Squad deployed on table with empty Storm Eagle in Reserves be legal with this Row?

 

Wishlisting. Your 'hypothetical' unit that doesn't have the DS rule by itself must begin aboard a flyer. Though the flyer doesn't have to be a DT.

 

2.

In Effects:

"At least half of the Legion Assault Squads in the army must always enter play using the Deep Strike special rules. At the beginning of the controlling player’s first turn, this ‘Assault Vanguard’ may deploy all of its Legion Assault Squads at once."

I understand this that the Deep Striking part of Legion Assault Squads is the 'Assault Vanguard'.

Second rule in effects states:

"In the player turn after that in which the Assault Vanguard deploys, enemy models within 12” may only fire Snap Shots against them."

To me the above quote states that any enemy unit within 12" of 'Assault Vanguard' (= any unit part of assault vanguard) can only fire Snap Shots against the Assault Vanguard. This would make the RoW somewhat useable if it worked this way.

 

The 'Assault Vanguard' are the number of ASSAULT squads you deepstruck on turn one. Not any unit.

 

Earlier I had quickly read the Effects and understood that they can Snap Shot only against the specific unit within 12", which would make the RoW quite horrible, as if you Deep Strike multiple its not very likely you can land within 12" of multiple enemy units, allowing the, at best, 1-2 units within 12" to walk away, while the others can happily fire at will at your Vanguard.

 

So does the 12" Snap Shot "cloud" include collectively all the enemy units within 12" of any unit of Assault vanguard or only the individual units within 12" of specific unit of Assault Vanguard?

 

 

See above.

 

If both would work as I assumed there above, it would make the RoW ok, as I could get infiltrating scouting Nuncio-vox to enemy lines and then it would be easier to Force the opponent to only Snap Shot for a turn.
Powerful yes, Fluffy yes, but imbalanced, maybe not as it's quite a lot of points for Recon Squad and Storm Eagle which by themselves aren't super efficient units.

 

Lol, the Row is 'okay' ? 

DAV is easily one of the most impressive RoW when used correctly and with the right units, even without trying to squeeze more that there is out of it.

If you want to find a good use for your Recon squads I suggest looking at LRC RoW.

[Ghorgul]

 

There's nothing ambiguous about the RoW formulation.  

 

And in my eyes, people trying to de-construct the various RoW syllable by syllable are merely fishing for advantages. Which is not very much in the spirit of 30k ...

 

"Only units that can deploy... embarked upon a Transport vehicle with the Flyer type may be taken in the army."

How I would interpret this is that once again you are not forced to Deep Strike the hypothetical unit. However you need to have the capability to Deep Strike them in a Flyer. I assume this means I could deploy infiltrating and scouting Legion Recon Squad if I have a Flyer capable to hold the unit, such as Dreadclaw, Storm Eagle or Caestus?

So for example, would Legion Recon Squad deployed on table with empty Storm Eagle in Reserves be legal with this Row?

 

Wishlisting. Your 'hypothetical' unit that doesn't have the DS rule by itself must begin aboard a flyer. Though the flyer doesn't have to be a DT.

If both would work as I assumed there above, it would make the RoW ok, as I could get infiltrating scouting Nuncio-vox to enemy lines and then it would be easier to Force the opponent to only Snap Shot for a turn.

Powerful yes, Fluffy yes, but imbalanced, maybe not as it's quite a lot of points for Recon Squad and Storm Eagle which by themselves aren't super efficient units.

 

Lol, the Row is 'okay' ? 

DAV is easily one of the most impressive RoW when used correctly and with the right units, even without trying to squeeze more that there is out of it.

If you want to find a good use for your Recon squads I suggest looking at LRC RoW.

 

 

Let me rephrase, this is why I think it's ambiguous:

 

"Only units that can deploy via Deep Strike or embarked upon a Transport vehicle with the Flyer type may be taken in the army."

 

Above sentence has 2 limitations:

"Only units that can deploy...

1. via Deep Strike... may be taken in the army."

2. embarked upon a Transport vehicle with the Flyer type may be taken in the army."

 

So with the 1st limitation above one can be freely choose if you deep strike or not.

Why the 2nd is then limiting that you must deploy embarked upon a Transport Vehicle with the Flyer?

 

How can the same starting sentence allow 2 options for 1st limitation, but only 1 option for 2nd limitation? I don't get it.

 

And as I'm being implied of being a power gamer, I don't see anything power gamey in having a 4+ save, 5+ cover save (I play Night Lords) infiltrating & scouting recon squad with nuncio vox (6" non-scatter OP item) on table 1st turn and having Storm Eagle in reserves. This setup by itself costs easily 350+ pts, if storm eagle is equipped at all. And this setup is essentially stopped by augury scanners or/and just basic common sense deployment.

 

I do still think DAV is kind of weak, if you dont have any scatter-removal for Deep Strike it is very luck if you can get anything done. I have been deep striking enough in 40k after CSM got teleport homer item and icon's effect removed and it wasn't fun at all. And then if you don't deep strike with DAV there is no point in taking the whole RoW. Only effects it gives are to the Assault Vanguard.

So yeah, so nice to drop and scatter 10+ assault marines 13" from enemy ordnance and get rekt due to unlucky scatter roll. Well I read the rules now, and they can run after Deep Strike, nice to know. That does make it better, but still very risky.

 

Of course one Legion can just infiltrate jump packed Master of Signal with assault squad to get essentially the same effect with cheaper price.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Ghorgul

[Rangaman]

Deploying via Deepstrike doesn't mean a unit who has the Deepstrike special rule can deploy normally with this RoW, the limitation is to deploy using Deepstrike.

 

How can you Infiltrate a Recon squad without deploying them embarked in a Flyer?

[Ghorgul]

Deploying via Deepstrike doesn't mean a unit who has the Deepstrike special rule can deploy normally with this RoW, the limitation is to deploy using Deepstrike.

 

How can you Infiltrate a Recon squad without deploying them embarked in a Flyer?

 

"Only units that can deploy via Deep Strike or embarked upon a Transport vehicle with the Flyer type may be taken in the army."

 

The rule states that all the units need to have ability to deep strike or ability to be deployed while embarked on a flyer, but then doesn't really demand that you need to do it.

So, as I have understood, people play this in a way that you are not forced to deep strike. I don't see why you couldn't have a infantry unit without deep strike but with available transport flyer (must be empty of course!) just deploy normally or with infiltrate.

 

EDIT: I mean the limitations it sets already rule out all units that cannot deep strike or be embarked on flyer, so bikes are not allowed, most vehicles are not allowed.

It's kind of very fluffy RoW, I mean logically if you do Drop Assault, only units available would be those able to deep strike (but storywise they can have deep striked just before the battle), and the units deploying using flyers (which also storywise could have deployed just before the battle).

And also to me having pre-deployed infiltrators to spot and designate targets for assault troops who then perform drop assault on enemy positions is very fluffy. It's not like they can do it blindly really.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Ghorgul

[Rangaman]

Deploy via Deepstrike is quite clear, you need to use Deepstrike to deploy. Otherwise it would say "Only units WITH the Deepstrike special rule or embarked on a Flyer may be taken in the army"

[Ghorgul]

Deploy via Deepstrike is quite clear, you need to use Deepstrike to deploy. Otherwise it would say "Only units WITH the Deepstrike special rule or embarked on a Flyer may be taken in the army"

That's a valid point and it got me thinking. Essentially the Orbital Assault RoW has been also worded in very similar manner:

"Units that cannot be deployed via Deep Strike, either by having access to the rule themselves or because they cannot be carried in a transport vehicle that has it (infantry in Drop Pods, for example), may not be chosen as part of the army."

 

Then I found that Forge World has following file up on their site: "The Horus Heresy Book 1 Errata & FAQ" which has 2 interesting and relevant Q&As:

 

Q: Do I have to take a Drop Pod instead of a Rhino for all my infantry units if I use the ‘Orbital

Assault’ Rite of War?

A: No, not so long as you have sufficient other vehicles for them to be transported in that are capable

of deep striking. So, for example, if your primary detachment contained two Legion Storm Eagle

Assault Gunships these could transport a unit of up to 20 infantry models each, and so two units in

your force would not need Drop Pods of their own. Note that once a transport such as this has been

‘assigned’ once for the purpose of working out the Rite of War, it cannot be claimed by another unit

as well!

 

Q: If I use the Orbital Assault Rite of War, do I have to have all of my units in reserve at the

start of the game?

A: No you don’t. The limitation of the selection is only that they must be able to use the Deep Strike

rules (to represent the limitations of this kind of force’s structure and deployment as part of the

narrative of the game). Units which have the option to either deploy by Deep Strike or deploy

normally may still do either, while units which must deploy via deep strike (such as Drop Pods) still

do so.

 

So, in the spirit these I guess it's allowed to deploy infantry directly to table as long as it has transport vehicle actually available in the detachment, i.e. it could deploy using the transport if chosen so, but you are not forced to make that choice.

[Angmarred]

I came into this thread thinking anyone trying to deploy a recon squad because they had an empty Storm Eagle was mad. Now I'm not so sure. Good discussion. Edited April 19, 2017 by Angmarred

[NoLifeKing]

My first question would be to ask, for what army is this "Drop Assault Vanguard" rite of war available and in which book can i find the rules written for it? 

Or is this discussion about the Orbital Assault  RoW for the legions, mistakenly named "Drop Assault Vanguard" for some weird reason?

Edit: Nevermind this, my ignorance seems to be reaching heretical levels.

Edited April 19, 2017 by NoLifeKing

[NoLifeKing]

Now that i have enlightened myself on this weird RoW, which i didn't even know existed before now.... I can share my thoughts on its function and form.

Firstly, i have to say that  the limitations, though written in a weird and funky way, can be made clear by a simple trick, as i have learned that when in doubt, read the fluff of the rites.
The limitation considering the units that can be taken, based on the fluff it forces your units to be aerial, in one form or another, and not marching by foot.

Units allowed: Units with the ability to deep strike can be taken, but are not forced to do so, because by the rite, at least most units with the ability to DS can be imagined having arrived on the field by flight or dropping from the sky earlier, even if they didn't DS during the actual game. Making them part of the "aerial strike" theme of the rite, based on its fluff based theme. Units that can't DS must obviously have a flyer transport available, and i lean strongly on the side of them also having to be embarked upon it, as per the fluff of an aerial strike force, which comes descending from the sky and not marching by foot. 

I have to completely agree with Unknown Legionanire on the subject of the Effects part of the rite of war, specifically the definition of the term "Assault Vanguard" which is used in the rite. Once more i refer to the fluff of the rite, which highlights the idea of jump troops dropping down from the sky, and the only real way this could be represented by game mechanics, at least in my opinion, are the deep striking assault squads. So i vouch that the term "Assault Vanguard" used in the rite, refers to the assault  squads of your army that you choose to deep strike, which they may perform during the first turn, thus becoming quite literally the assault VANGUARD, who are then followed up by the other troops that are transported in their wake by the gunships of the force. I believe this is also the reason why the rite uses this weird term of "Assault Vanguard" and doesn't simply say "the detachment", because the term is reserved for specific group of units within the detachment.

So now that i have explained my definition of what the term "Assault Vanguard" means, and my reasoning behind what can be taken as part of the force and how to deploy them, i can get to the actual function of the rite, which works around buffing up this "Assault Vanguard": 

The assault squads that form the vanguard, can only be snap fired at by enemy units within 12'' of them on the next player turn after the one on which they come on board, which naturally is that of your opponent, protecting them from the worst of the fire directed towards them. If you did choose to bring your vanguard on the board, then on your second turn, the turn in which you can make your first charge with the vanguard, you have the nice perk of being able to hit and run away from combat, if you have to need or wish for whatever reason.

I know that most of my reasoning is based on my interpretation of the theme and fluff of this RoW is meant to symbolize, but i am confident that even so, the logic behind my reasoning is sound. I hope this helps.
 

[Cactus]

I thought the question was can an enemy unit withim 12" of one Assault Vanguard unit shoot normally at a different AV unit that is more than 12" away?

[NoLifeKing]

I thought the question was can an enemy unit withim 12" of one Assault Vanguard unit shoot normally at a different AV unit that is more than 12" away?

 

I don't wish to be rude... but i can't believe this is the part of the RoW that gets questioned

The phrase "enemy models within 12'' may only fire Snap Shots against them"  is obvious in its intent to protect the units closing in on the enemy(once more invoking the fluff), therefore it should be clear that it means that if you choose to fire at an AV unit that is within 12" of you, you are forced to snap shoot.

 

Because if your distance to the unit you are shooting at wouldn't be important, i believe it would have been phrased in something closer to this: "In the player turn after that in which the Assault Vanguard deploys, enemy models can only fire Snap Shots against them". The 12'' proximity detail would be just a weird, unwieldy and pointless feature of the buff if it were meant to protect the AV no matter where the lads go to deep strike.

 

So my opinion is that you could fire at a distant target with your full BS, but in the end, i am not completely certain about this being the case, but i am confident, so i would be ready to debate this further, because in this form the RoW would indeed be of questionable worth.

Edited April 20, 2017 by NoLifeKing

[Ghorgul]

I thought the question was can an enemy unit withim 12" of one Assault Vanguard unit shoot normally at a different AV unit that is more than 12" away?

 

Yeah!

 

 

I thought the question was can an enemy unit withim 12" of one Assault Vanguard unit shoot normally at a different AV unit that is more than 12" away?

 

I don't wish to be rude... but i can't believe this is the part of the RoW that gets questioned

The phrase "enemy models within 12'' may only fire Snap Shots against them"  is obvious in its intent to protect the units closing in on the enemy(once more invoking the fluff), therefore it should be clear that it means that if you choose to fire at an AV unit that is within 12" of you, you are forced to snap shoot.

 

Because if your distance to the unit you are shooting at wouldn't be important, i believe it would have been phrased in something closer to this: "In the player turn after that in which the Assault Vanguard deploys, enemy models can only fire Snap Shots against them". The 12'' proximity detail would be just a weird, unwieldy and pointless feature of the buff if it were meant to protect the AV no matter where the lads go to deep strike.

 

So my opinion is that you could fire at a distant target with your full BS, but in the end, i am not completely certain about this being the case, but i am confident, so i would be ready to debate this further, because in this form the RoW would indeed be of questionable worth.

 

 

I agree, the RoW is not worth it if ending up within 12" of one Vanguard unit allows you to shoot normally at other Vanguard unit that is further than 12" away.

And I say it's not worth it because the RoW basically gives 3 benefits (ordered by the amount of respective Awesome!):

1) 12" snap shot bubble for one turn

2) 1st Turn automatic deep strike

3) Hit&Run

 

2) benefit is not so awesome alone, as the assault squad doesnt have any alpha strike ability (no plasma gun, no melta gun etc.)

3) benefit is only for your 2nd turn, making it too situational to be of use in most cases.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Ghorgul

[Varyn]

I have a question about the DAV RoW:

 

Is it possible for characters to join the assault squads, if they have the ability to deep strike? e.g. jump pack praetor/consuls, Dorn, Perturabo

 

The wording mentions the "assault vanguard" referencing the assault squads being able to deepstrike on turn one, but doesn't mention any attached characters 

[Ghorgul]

I have a question about the DAV RoW:

 

Is it possible for characters to join the assault squads, if they have the ability to deep strike? e.g. jump pack praetor/consuls, Dorn, Perturabo

 

The wording mentions the "assault vanguard" referencing the assault squads being able to deepstrike on turn one, but doesn't mention any attached characters 

Should be possible I think. Assault Squads just end up designated "Assault Vanguard", and as characters can join units in Deep Strike anyway so there should be no problem. Obviously the Character in question needs to have Deep Strike available independently, as always.

[Gorgoff]

I have a question about the DAV RoW:

 

Is it possible for characters to join the assault squads, if they have the ability to deep strike? e.g. jump pack praetor/consuls, Dorn, Perturabo

 

The wording mentions the "assault vanguard" referencing the assault squads being able to deepstrike on turn one, but doesn't mention any attached characters

I'd allow it.

[Elzender]

I would personally be a bit more picky with the way of deepstriking for special characters, I don't know if it is specified but I'm guessing Perturabo and Dorn deepstrike by teleporting, so I'm not sure I'd allow them to join an assault squad which is likely dropped by atmosferic insertion.

[Gorgoff]

I would personally be a bit more picky with the way of deepstriking for special characters, I don't know if it is specified but I'm guessing Perturabo and Dorn deepstrike by teleporting, so I'm not sure I'd allow them to join an assault squad which is likely dropped by atmosferic insertion.

I'd allow it anyway because I play Perturabo. ;)

Jokes aside I thought it's about IC with jump packs and not Primarchs.