Primarch Book 4: Perturabo-Hammer of Olympia

[HeritorA]

The Observer

as for the 'About Perturabo and Haley we will have to agree to disagree in my eyes Haley has absolutely not failed with Perturabo but provided one of the best depictions possible for the Iron Lord;a heartless, grim, control obsessed monstrosity only capable of thinking in numbers and trying to shift blame where ever possible.'

 

Agree on blame - but as I said before - why nobody rebelled against his rule in his own Legion? Why they are stumbling automata agreeing to die on a whim of a madmen? Why Emperor didn't do :cuss about it? That 'logic' person started with decimation of his own Legion. He made IWs kill 1/10 of their brothers - golly gee, nobody argued about that, Emperor didn't know about that?

Hasn't Emperor saw how 'insane' and raging Perturabo became? As I mentioned in my review - Angron has more self-control with his human crew (let's take Betrayer as an example) than Bo.

The best personality of Perturabo was done by French - insane raging megalomaniac of whom everybody is afraid of.

Then we have McNeil Bo personality - the worst of them all. (to clarify for me AE was a horrible book).

Haley did tried to compile all that and make it whole. The end result is a backet made of stone shards.

Case closed

 

 

 

 

 

Do we know which Primarch is next? I remember seeing a beautiful cover of Fulgrim making the rounds. I assume we don't have a release order, do we?

 

 

Lorgar's next, by Gav Thorpe. Then I think it's Fulgrim by Josh Reynolds, and at some point I think we get Ferrus Manus but I can't remember who's supposed to be writing that one.

 

edit: David Guymer for Ferrus Manus, probably. I think Guy Haley mentioned on Combat Phase that he was doing Mortarion as his next Primarchs book, too, but that could just be tentative.

 

 

Thank you kindly for filling me in quite curious about the Ferrus Manus one...

 

David mentioned on Twitter that Ferrus Manus will probably be out around January - and that it should be "properly grim and dark"

 

  Of course it would be dark - after all we are talking about Key's of Fel again ;)

[Marshal Loss]

Great article by Guy Haley on Perturabo. Well worth a read, and I enjoyed the brief discussion of his approach to the Hrud.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/10/the-lord-of-iron/

 

Something relevant to much of the discussion here:

 

 

 

I’m often asked if I choose books to write or if am assigned them. In my case, they’re mostly assigned. Perturabo was given to me, partly because one of the aims of the series was to have authors create stories about primarchs they hadn’t written about before. That’s great for us, as it means we’re not always doing the same thing

 

If more are produced of this quality, I'll be very pleased. Interested to see who Haley writes next in the series

Edited May 10, 2017 by Marshal Loss

[HeritorA]

Great article by Guy Haley on Perturabo. Well worth a read, and I enjoyed the brief discussion of his approach to the Hrud.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/10/the-lord-of-iron/

 

Something relevant to much of the discussion here:

 

 

 

I’m often asked if I choose books to write or if am assigned them. In my case, they’re mostly assigned. Perturabo was given to me, partly because one of the aims of the series was to have authors create stories about primarchs they hadn’t written about before. That’s great for us, as it means we’re not always doing the same thing

 

If more are produced of this quality, I'll be very pleased. Interested to see who Haley writes next in the series

Mortarion next

[Dagoth Ur]

The Observer

as for the 'About Perturabo and Haley we will have to agree to disagree in my eyes Haley has absolutely not failed with Perturabo but provided one of the best depictions possible for the Iron Lord;a heartless, grim, control obsessed monstrosity only capable of thinking in numbers and trying to shift blame where ever possible.'

 

Agree on blame - but as I said before - why nobody rebelled against his rule in his own Legion? Why they are stumbling automata agreeing to die on a whim of a madmen? Why Emperor didn't do about it? That 'logic' person started with decimation of his own Legion. He made IWs kill 1/10 of their brothers - , nobody argued about that, Emperor didn't know about that?

Hasn't Emperor saw how 'insane' and raging Perturabo became? As I mentioned in my review - Angron has more self-control with his human crew (let's take Betrayer as an example) than Bo.

The best personality of Perturabo was done by French - insane raging megalomaniac of whom everybody is afraid of.

Then we have McNeil Bo personality - the worst of them all. (to clarify for me AE was a horrible book).

Haley did tried to compile all that and make it whole. The end result is a backet made of stone shards.

Case closed

 

 

Except the case ain't closed

Why nobody rebelled against Perturabo's rule? Easy, it was unheard of. Nobody thought it possible to betray their father, as betraying a primarch meant betraying the Emperor at that time. A space marine is nothing without his legion. They agree to die for him, because it is what Olympia (In the case of the newly inducted) and Perturabo himself has drilled into them, they are expected to die, because life is a ressource to leaders like Perturabo. They understand their function and role in the machiney of the IVth, they understand the price of war and attrition. The Emperor didn't do anything about that because A.) Perturabo was doing quite well as a war leader and B.) The Emperor had retreated from the Theater of War after Ullanor and left everything to Horus and as we know, Horus was all to keen to let the IVth be demoralised and ground down. The efficiency of decimation can be debated, but there is a certain merit to putting something scarier behind the own lines than what faces those very same lines. The IVth legion was failing in their duty by the time Perturabo was found and Perturabo is not someone who accepted failure easily. Horus Heresy 3 makes a point in telling how horrifying the edict of decimation was to the wider imperium and that some questioned Perturabo's right to lead, but again, it was an age in which the Primarch's could not be openly questioned except by their father and he did not intervene because, for all his brutality, Perturabo still did his job quite well.

Did the Emperor see the raging and "Insane" nature of Perturabo? Would he care? Curze was way worse at that time and the Emperor did nothing? You know why? Because they all had a function, they all succeeded in conquering the milky way (Well, only Lorgar fell short). Maybe he had more important things to do than nag at a son who was still racking in results (You know, like a certain webway project ). After all, the Emperor only went directly after Lorgar because he failed to conquer swiftly enough.

Sure, Angron is nicer to his legion serfs, but he is an incapable leader. Perturabo may kill the odd serf and shout his lungs out, but he is a consummate tactician who knows how to lead. Strengths and weaknesses, HeritorA, you should know about this when you start criticising characters.

People are just as afraid of Perturabo in Haley's version as they are in French's, hell his closest sons collectively their pants at his temper.

While AE was a bad book, the depiction of Perturabo was actually pretty good, but I guess there is no use debating that with you. Haley tried and succeeded in merging both depictions, creating a book that offers much to  Iron Warrior  and Heresy fans both.

There are quite logical answers for all your questions, if one would bother to actually consider looking after them and not taking a piece of writing for face value. While one can certainly argue if the book is subjectively palatable or not, it is not the hodgepodge amalgam of depictions of an illogical character that you make it out to be.

[HeritorA]

 

The Observer

as for the 'About Perturabo and Haley we will have to agree to disagree in my eyes Haley has absolutely not failed with Perturabo but provided one of the best depictions possible for the Iron Lord;a heartless, grim, control obsessed monstrosity only capable of thinking in numbers and trying to shift blame where ever possible.'

 

Agree on blame - but as I said before - why nobody rebelled against his rule in his own Legion? Why they are stumbling automata agreeing to die on a whim of a madmen? Why Emperor didn't do about it? That 'logic' person started with decimation of his own Legion. He made IWs kill 1/10 of their brothers - , nobody argued about that, Emperor didn't know about that?

Hasn't Emperor saw how 'insane' and raging Perturabo became? As I mentioned in my review - Angron has more self-control with his human crew (let's take Betrayer as an example) than Bo.

The best personality of Perturabo was done by French - insane raging megalomaniac of whom everybody is afraid of.

Then we have McNeil Bo personality - the worst of them all. (to clarify for me AE was a horrible book).

Haley did tried to compile all that and make it whole. The end result is a backet made of stone shards.

Case closed

 

 

Except the case ain't closed

Why nobody rebelled against Perturabo's rule? Easy, it was unheard of. Nobody thought it possible to betray their father, as betraying a primarch meant betraying the Emperor at that time. A space marine is nothing without his legion. They agree to die for him, because it is what Olympia (In the case of the newly inducted) and Perturabo himself has drilled into them, they are expected to die, because life is a ressource to leaders like Perturabo. They understand their function and role in the machiney of the IVth, they understand the price of war and attrition. The Emperor didn't do anything about that because A.) Perturabo was doing quite well as a war leader and B.) The Emperor had retreated from the Theater of War after Ullanor and left everything to Horus and as we know, Horus was all to keen to let the IVth be demoralised and ground down. The efficiency of decimation can be debated, but there is a certain merit to putting something scarier behind the own lines than what faces those very same lines. The IVth legion was failing in their duty by the time Perturabo was found and Perturabo is not someone who accepted failure easily. Horus Heresy 3 makes a point in telling how horrifying the edict of decimation was to the wider imperium and that some questioned Perturabo's right to lead, but again, it was an age in which the Primarch's could not be openly questioned except by their father and he did not intervene because, for all his brutality, Perturabo still did his job quite well.

Did the Emperor see the raging and "Insane" nature of Perturabo? Would he care? Curze was way worse at that time and the Emperor did nothing? You know why? Because they all had a function, they all succeeded in conquering the milky way (Well, only Lorgar fell short). Maybe he had more important things to do than nag at a son who was still racking in results (You know, like a certain webway project ). After all, the Emperor only went directly after Lorgar because he failed to conquer swiftly enough.

Sure, Angron is nicer to his legion serfs, but he is an incapable leader. Perturabo may kill the odd serf and shout his lungs out, but he is a consummate tactician who knows how to lead. Strengths and weaknesses, HeritorA, you should know about this when you start criticising characters.

People are just as afraid of Perturabo in Haley's version as they are in French's, hell his closest sons collectively their pants at his temper.

While AE was a bad book, the depiction of Perturabo was actually pretty good, but I guess there is no use debating that with you. Haley tried and succeeded in merging both depictions, creating a book that offers much to  Iron Warrior  and Heresy fans both.

There are quite logical answers for all your questions, if one would bother to actually consider looking after them and not taking a piece of writing for face value. While one can certainly argue if the book is subjectively palatable or not, it is not the hodgepodge amalgam of depictions of an illogical character that you make it out to be.

 

And we are going to the Lorgar case - Emperor had Angron, Perturabo and Curze butchering, killing millions and their own Legions out of spite and rage. And he has Lorgar who venerated him - in all his' glory and hypocrisy he did chastised Lorgar, instead of doing something with his broken kids.

 

'Horus Heresy 3 makes a point in telling how horrifying the edict of decimation was to the wider imperium and that some questioned Perturabo's right to lead, but again, it was an age in which the Primarch's could not be openly questioned except by their father and he did not intervene because, for all his brutality, Perturabo still did his job quite well.'

 

- The Emperor in all his 'wisdom'  could have at least simply talked about that with his son. Instead of being a bad 'father' he would have at least tried to do something about the 'issues'.

 

'but he is a consummate tactician who knows how to lead'  - by fear? or by bitterness?

A whole range of Primarchs: Angron, Mortarion, Perturabo - should have had a psychiatrist sessions every week, instead of leading.You think if they would have been 'fixed', they would have become uncapable leaders?

•  

 

And I never bought and will never buy that explanation by BL that Angron butcher nails can't be removed by the Emperor and his all 'science' division.

Some mediocre technicians of some mediocre world installed some outdated garbage into one of his sons and The Great and mighty Emperor wasn't been able to fix that? Really?

Let be honest - a lot of stuff in Great Crusade and HH are written simply because - without any science or logic to it. Lorgar brought low, Angron butcher nails, Mortarion bitterness, Perturabo all seeing Maelstorm and rage moments etc. etc. etc.

[Dagoth Ur]

You should reread The First Heretic if you think that the Emperor went after Lorgar primarily because of his faith. While je chastizes him for his faith, he is mainly displeased with how slowly he is conquering the galaxy, considering his legion is one of the largest.

Sure the Emperor could've talked with his children about it but why? Was it essential to him? No, the legions conquered just fine with broken figureheads and everything went bottoms up when Lorgar turned into a little ninny and let himself be influenced by Erebus and Kor Phaeron. Did he even care about their issues? Maybe, maybe not.

Perturabo is a consummate tactician because he understands logistics like no second among his brethren. He understands that life must be sacrificed in order for a war to be won. He turns himself into the central command unit of the whole theater of war and sorts the massive amounts of data all by himself. He does not simply lead with "bitterness", stop being facetious. Perturabo leads his sons by treating them as a ressource, figures to be pushed around and has taught them not to question, as detrimental and as useful as that can be at the same time.

Obviously some primarchs could have used counseling, but so could have many greater world leaders, conquerors and politicians, yet they did their job just fine. The Emperor didnt send the World Eaters to offer peace treaties and discuss matters of capitulations. He sent them on missions of total extermination. He understood the different applications of the legions.

 

And the explanation as for why the Nails can't be removed is given to us in Master of Mankind, the nails have replaced large parts of Angron's brain. They are not simply an addition to the system, they are a replacement to whole parts of it. Logically their removal would be heavily devilitating to the patient. Why risk the loss of irreplacable genetic and psychic work, if Angron can perform just fine in his new function. Sure, he isn't perfect, but its better to have a blunt knife than no knife at all. The technicians on Angron's homeworld were not all that lowtech if I remember correctly. They just hoarded technology and turned it towards a very brutal and savage direction. But then again, this is all off topic, so maybe you should stick to adressing the actual points made?

The whole of Black Library is written 'just because', since that is the basis of any fiction. It is called "Suspension of disbelief" and it is part of every fictional piece of work, from Jules Verne, Poe, Lovecraft to Shakespeare, ADB and Haley. It doesn't have to be scientific accurate because that is not what it pretends to be. It is completely honest and transparent about being a mix of scifi pulp technology and magic and works just fine with its internal logic usually.

[HeritorA]

You should reread The First Heretic if you think that the Emperor went after Lorgar primarily because of his faith. While je chastizes him for his faith, he is mainly displeased with how slowly he is conquering the galaxy, considering his legion is one of the largest.

Sure the Emperor could've talked with his children about it but why? Was it essential to him? No, the legions conquered just fine with broken figureheads and everything went bottoms up when Lorgar turned into a little ninny and let himself be influenced by Erebus and Kor Phaeron. Did he even care about their issues? Maybe, maybe not.

Perturabo is a consummate tactician because he understands logistics like no second among his brethren. He understands that life must be sacrificed in order for a war to be won. He turns himself into the central command unit of the whole theater of war and sorts the massive amounts of data all by himself. He does not simply lead with "bitterness", stop being facetious. Perturabo leads his sons by treating them as a ressource, figures to be pushed around and has taught them not to question, as detrimental and as useful as that can be at the same time.

Obviously some primarchs could have used counseling, but so could have many greater world leaders, conquerors and politicians, yet they did their job just fine. The Emperor didnt send the World Eaters to offer peace treaties and discuss matters of capitulations. He sent them on missions of total extermination. He understood the different applications of the legions.

 

And the explanation as for why the Nails can't be removed is given to us in Master of Mankind, the nails have replaced large parts of Angron's brain. They are not simply an addition to the system, they are a replacement to whole parts of it. Logically their removal would be heavily devilitating to the patient. Why risk the loss of irreplacable genetic and psychic work, if Angron can perform just fine in his new function. Sure, he isn't perfect, but its better to have a blunt knife than no knife at all. The technicians on Angron's homeworld were not all that lowtech if I remember correctly. They just hoarded technology and turned it towards a very brutal and savage direction. But then again, this is all off topic, so maybe you should stick to adressing the actual points made?

The whole of Black Library is written 'just because', since that is the basis of any fiction. It is called "Suspension of disbelief" and it is part of every fictional piece of work, from Jules Verne, Poe, Lovecraft to Shakespeare, ADB and Haley. It doesn't have to be scientific accurate because that is not what it pretends to be. It is completely honest and transparent about being a mix of scifi pulp technology and magic and works just fine with its internal logic usually.

you ask why? How about to save billions of 'human lives' of whom he proclaims himself such a Master.

 

'if Angron can perform just fine in his new function.' - right....

 

'It is completely honest and transparent about being a mix of scifi pulp technology and magic and works just fine with its internal logic usually.' - on that I totally agree.

 

All in all Observer - splendid discussion and amazing points.

[Dagoth Ur]

Why save billions when you can easily repopulate the worlds in question and make way for hundreds of billions? Harsh and cold, but ultimately pragmatic.

 

Not sure about the sarcasm concerning Angron, would you disagree that he does his job good? After all, the World Eaters were only really assigned to extermination campaigns, you dont need a tactician or diplomat (well, a tactician would make it easier but it is not mandatory) for that. Angron was pretty much always just let loose on the enemies of the Imperium.

 

Glad you enjoy it as well :)

Edited May 10, 2017 by The Observer

[HeritorA]

Pragmatic for a tyrant - sure. Pragmatic for a humanity savior? right....

 

'Not sure about the sarcasm concerning Angron, would you disagree that he does his job good? After all, the World Eaters were only really assigned to extermination campaigns, you dont need a tactician or diplomat (well, a tactician would make it easier but it is not mandatory) for that. Angron was pretty much always just let loose on the enemies of the Imperium.'

- as you always liked to mention with points to the novel. MOM says that Emperor DID NOT INVISION ANGRON A BRAINLESS UNHAPPY SPARTACUS. But he hasn't been able to 'remove' the stuff that was killing him (which is simply cause Ward and Clark and GW decided so)

 

"Suspension of disbelief" in general has several levels. Here we have the basest of them.

[Dagoth Ur]

Oh I am absolutely not denying that the Emperor envisioned something else for Angron, but as it sometimes happens in life, some things dont go according to plan. He cant perform his intended purpose, sure, but the Emperor found a new application for him. Make due with what you have basically.

 

And well, it is pragmatic enough to save humanity. No single human is so unique that he can't be replaced. Killing ten to save hundred may not be the morally or ethicall right thing to do, but when the goal is to preserve humanity, then it certainly is the rational and efficient thing to given, given the circumstances. Sometimes you have to prune a tree in order to facilitate its growth after all.

 

I wouldn't really say its the basest level of suspension of disbelief, but that is always a very personal and subjective evaluation.

[HeritorA]

Oh I am absolutely not denying that the Emperor envisioned something else for Angron, but as it sometimes happens in life, some things dont go according to plan. He cant perform his intended purpose, sure, but the Emperor found a new application for him. Make due with what you have basically.

 

And well, it is pragmatic enough to save humanity. No single human is so unique that he can't be replaced. Killing ten to save hundred may not be the morally or ethicall right thing to do, but when the goal is to preserve humanity, then it certainly is the rational and efficient thing to given, given the circumstances. Sometimes you have to prune a tree in order to facilitate its growth after all.

 

I wouldn't really say its the basest level of suspension of disbelief, but that is always a very personal and subjective evaluation.

In general I do agree. But for the Master of Mankind the 'Emperor' has done too many basic mistakes which would have been so obvious to everyone, except his 'grandmajesty'.

 

Again - Curze is a different beast and we will leave him by now. But Perturabo, Mortarion, to some extent Angron - with the simplest 'Daddy shrink session' could have become much more 'samaritan' Primarchs, instead of monsters they become

[Dagoth Ur]

 

Oh I am absolutely not denying that the Emperor envisioned something else for Angron, but as it sometimes happens in life, some things dont go according to plan. He cant perform his intended purpose, sure, but the Emperor found a new application for him. Make due with what you have basically.

 

And well, it is pragmatic enough to save humanity. No single human is so unique that he can't be replaced. Killing ten to save hundred may not be the morally or ethicall right thing to do, but when the goal is to preserve humanity, then it certainly is the rational and efficient thing to given, given the circumstances. Sometimes you have to prune a tree in order to facilitate its growth after all.

 

I wouldn't really say its the basest level of suspension of disbelief, but that is always a very personal and subjective evaluation.

In general I do agree. But for the Master of Mankind the 'Emperor' has done too many basic mistakes which would have been so obvious to everyone, except his 'grandmajesty'.

 

Again - Curze is a different beast and we will leave him by now. But Perturabo, Mortarion, to some extent Angron - with the simplest 'Daddy shrink session' could have become much more 'samaritan' Primarchs, instead of monsters they become

 

 

The main question still remains: Why would he do it though? They conquered just fine, and we know that the Emperor had no qualms about discarding tools once they outlived their purpose (Thunderwarriors were culled at mount Ararat for example). I don't think it is that far off to think that he would've only kept the "useful" ones around. Angron would burn himself out, so that's a problem that fixes itself basically. A mistake is always a matter of perspective. Did the Emperor want healthy, mentally sound kids or did he rather want a galaxy under his fist? Now, I don't know about you, but I'd say that he'd prefer the galaxy and if that takes breaking a few eggs or neglecting them, then that's what it takes. He is not as omniscient as people belive him to be, Master of Mankind shows that quite aptly.

[Carach]

meh the primarchs and marines would of remained - some of them at least. 

They and their sons all had massive peace-time potential too - World Eaters aside, who, as is shown, were on the long road to suicide - i imagine they just wouldn't have had their numbers replenished - it was an acceptable loss for helping conquer the galaxy that bit quicker.

 

Perturabo and Dorn were architects, others were forgers of whatever, some artists, some politicians, some good all-rounders for empire building, lorgar could well have become a kind of moral centre, Magnus we already know was supposed to be effectively the Guardian of the webway - which ultimately would of been a half of humanity's empire.

[bluntblade]

And there is life in other galaxies which, with the entire Milky Way under his control, the Emperor might have sent His sons to head off before it could threaten Mankind. Alas that the Pantheon couldn't see what cracking entertainment the Eighteen vs the Tyrannids would have been.

 

Anyway, Perturabo. Considering getting another couple of BL books before I fly and this is high on the list, assuming it gets released digitally before Monday - does it?

 

If not, it'll be a combination of two from Leman Russ, Wolf King, Mechanicum, PoD, Know No Fear, Shattered Legions or Siege of Castellax.

[HeritorA]

 

 

Oh I am absolutely not denying that the Emperor envisioned something else for Angron, but as it sometimes happens in life, some things dont go according to plan. He cant perform his intended purpose, sure, but the Emperor found a new application for him. Make due with what you have basically.

 

And well, it is pragmatic enough to save humanity. No single human is so unique that he can't be replaced. Killing ten to save hundred may not be the morally or ethicall right thing to do, but when the goal is to preserve humanity, then it certainly is the rational and efficient thing to given, given the circumstances. Sometimes you have to prune a tree in order to facilitate its growth after all.

 

I wouldn't really say its the basest level of suspension of disbelief, but that is always a very personal and subjective evaluation.

In general I do agree. But for the Master of Mankind the 'Emperor' has done too many basic mistakes which would have been so obvious to everyone, except his 'grandmajesty'.

 

Again - Curze is a different beast and we will leave him by now. But Perturabo, Mortarion, to some extent Angron - with the simplest 'Daddy shrink session' could have become much more 'samaritan' Primarchs, instead of monsters they become

 

 

The main question still remains: Why would he do it though? They conquered just fine, and we know that the Emperor had no qualms about discarding tools once they outlived their purpose (Thunderwarriors were culled at mount Ararat for example). I don't think it is that far off to think that he would've only kept the "useful" ones around. Angron would burn himself out, so that's a problem that fixes itself basically. A mistake is always a matter of perspective. Did the Emperor want healthy, mentally sound kids or did he rather want a galaxy under his fist? Now, I don't know about you, but I'd say that he'd prefer the galaxy and if that takes breaking a few eggs or neglecting them, then that's what it takes. He is not as omniscient as people belive him to be, Master of Mankind shows that quite aptly.

 

MOM shows that exactly - at the same time ruining your theory of 'Angron would burn himself out, so that's a problem that fixes itself basically.' Cause he did tried to save him. Take 'Betrayer' in ligament with 'MoM' and you will see a different picture of Emperor intentions.

 

'Alas that the Pantheon couldn't see what cracking entertainment the Eighteen vs the Tyrannids would have been.'

- no chance for poor Tyranids. Poor termagaunts would have been slaughtered in abundance.

 

'Anyway, Perturabo. Considering getting another couple of BL books before I fly and this is high on the list, assuming it gets released digitally before Monday - does it?'

-bluntblade nope, sorry. Digitally in July in scope of general release.

 

'If not, it'll be a combination of two from Leman Russ, Wolf King, Mechanicum, PoD, Know No Fear, Shattered Legions or Siege of Castellax.' -

Leman Russ, Wolf King, KnF and PoD are amazing.

Mechanicum - good.

Shattered Legions - in general good, but cause it's old stuff reprint and a lot of us already read it all - bad.

Siege of Castellax - totally meh.

[DarkChaplain]

The Siege of Castellax was pretty damn great. Such an utterly grim novel that highlights just how far the Iron Warriors have fallen from grace. Leman Russ I honestly expected more from, the early chapters were a chore and structurally it wasn't a pleasant read. Having only 6 chapters, two of which form prologue and epilogue, was a stupid bloody idea.

 

I'd also wager that bluntblade has not, in fact, read all of Meduson and The Seventh Serpent, which makes Shattered Legion a fantastic value proposition of pretty high quality.

[Dagoth Ur]

 

MOM shows that exactly - at the same time ruining your theory of 'Angron would burn himself out, so that's a problem that fixes itself basically.' Cause he did tried to save him. Take 'Betrayer' in ligament with 'MoM' and you will see a different picture of Emperor intentions.

 

'Alas that the Pantheon couldn't see what cracking entertainment the Eighteen vs the Tyrannids would have been.'

- no chance for poor Tyranids. Poor termagaunts would have been slaughtered in abundance.

 

'Anyway, Perturabo. Considering getting another couple of BL books before I fly and this is high on the list, assuming it gets released digitally before Monday - does it?'

-bluntblade nope, sorry. Digitally in July in scope of general release.

 

'If not, it'll be a combination of two from Leman Russ, Wolf King, Mechanicum, PoD, Know No Fear, Shattered Legions or Siege of Castellax.' -

Leman Russ, Wolf King, KnF and PoD are amazing.

Mechanicum - good.

Shattered Legions - in general good, but cause it's old stuff reprint and a lot of us already read it all - bad.

Siege of Castellax - totally meh.

 

 

Except it doesn't ruin the theory. If you have a broken gun, obviously you'll try to fix. Now let's asume it is too hard to fix the gun or nearly impossible without risking of breaking it completely down. You might as well shrug and use it as a club from now on. Does it work at peak performance? No. Does it still kill? Yes, albeit not the way it was intended to. Yet still, you can eventually get back later and try it again. That is exactly what MoM highlights. Naturally the Emperor would try to fix Angron, especially before Ullanor, considering that the webway project wasn't as pressing a project as it seemed. He opened Angron's skull to have a peek, noticed what a cluster actually was inside his noggin and just let it be. A broken primarch is better than no primarch at all, that sentence alone highlights that sentiment perfectly. If he had finished the webway project and the Heresy hadn't happened, maybe he would've devoted more time and ressources to help Angron (If it was even possible to help him, that is), or he would have just let him do his thing and fizzle out, it all depends on how valuable Angron would have been to him. From all data that we have we can deduce that healing Angron or looking after his children's wellbeing was not at the top of big E's priority list. So, to summarise: Either he would've attempted to heal Angron again (Which I consider unlikely, some Primarchs have always seemed more discardable to me, compared to others), or he would've let the beast burn itself out, either way, he still found a use for his broken son; much like the broken gun can become a makeshift club. Eventually you'll either fix it or it'll degrade so far that it'll break apart completely and be unsalvagable. The theory still stands strong and with banners flitting in the air .

[HeritorA]

The Siege of Castellax was pretty damn great. Such an utterly grim novel that highlights just how far the Iron Warriors have fallen from grace. Leman Russ I honestly expected more from, the early chapters were a chore and structurally it wasn't a pleasant read. Having only 6 chapters, two of which form prologue and epilogue, was a stupid bloody idea.

 

I'd also wager that bluntblade has not, in fact, read all of Meduson and The Seventh Serpent, which makes Shattered Legion a fantastic value proposition of pretty high quality.

Never doubted you would say that.

 

I will leave the thoughts of my friend here - cause It's obvious to me that DC like everything, doesn't matter the quality.

'But when, early in the book, he had a Chaos Space Marine say "Ow," I nearly tossed the book in the trash. But, being a sucker, I plowed through the rest of it. His characterization of the Iron Warrior marines was similarly lame for the most part. And the idea of 64 marines holding off a billion orks (who are nearly as hardy as marines in the damage they can take) is ludicrous. The IW commander barely took part in the planning of the defense, instead leaving it up to his inept and bickering captains which cost them the war (they apparently didn't know the ork mentality despite having been around for a few thousand years). And the alpha-level psyker mentioned in the beginning was forgotten, violating Chekhov's gun principle.'

 

 

 

 

MOM shows that exactly - at the same time ruining your theory of 'Angron would burn himself out, so that's a problem that fixes itself basically.' Cause he did tried to save him. Take 'Betrayer' in ligament with 'MoM' and you will see a different picture of Emperor intentions.

 

'Alas that the Pantheon couldn't see what cracking entertainment the Eighteen vs the Tyrannids would have been.'

- no chance for poor Tyranids. Poor termagaunts would have been slaughtered in abundance.

 

'Anyway, Perturabo. Considering getting another couple of BL books before I fly and this is high on the list, assuming it gets released digitally before Monday - does it?'

-bluntblade nope, sorry. Digitally in July in scope of general release.

 

'If not, it'll be a combination of two from Leman Russ, Wolf King, Mechanicum, PoD, Know No Fear, Shattered Legions or Siege of Castellax.' -

Leman Russ, Wolf King, KnF and PoD are amazing.

Mechanicum - good.

Shattered Legions - in general good, but cause it's old stuff reprint and a lot of us already read it all - bad.

Siege of Castellax - totally meh.

 

 

Except it doesn't ruin the theory. If you have a broken gun, obviously you'll try to fix. Now let's asume it is too hard to fix the gun or nearly impossible without risking of breaking it completely down. You might as well shrug and use it as a club from now on. Does it work at peak performance? No. Does it still kill? Yes, albeit not the way it was intended to. Yet still, you can eventually get back later and try it again. That is exactly what MoM highlights. Naturally the Emperor would try to fix Angron, especially before Ullanor, considering that the webway project wasn't as pressing a project as it seemed. He opened Angron's skull to have a peek, noticed what a cluster actually was inside his noggin and just let it be. A broken primarch is better than no primarch at all, that sentence alone highlights that sentiment perfectly. If he had finished the webway project and the Heresy hadn't happened, maybe he would've devoted more time and ressources to help Angron (If it was even possible to help him, that is), or he would have just let him do his thing and fizzle out, it all depends on how valuable Angron would have been to him. From all data that we have we can deduce that healing Angron or looking after his children's wellbeing was not at the top of big E's priority list. So, to summarise: Either he would've attempted to heal Angron again (Which I consider unlikely, some Primarchs have always seemed more discardable to me, compared to others), or he would've let the beast burn itself out, either way, he still found a use for his broken son; much like the broken gun can become a makeshift club. Eventually you'll either fix it or it'll degrade so far that it'll break apart completely and be unsalvagable. The theory still stands strong and with banners flitting in the air .

 

Opinions, opinions   Will get to you next week. I have Joe Abercrombi to review

[DarkChaplain]

Huh. You must've missed the countless pieces of criticism I leveled, to the point of chewing dear veterannoob's ear off about Shadow of Ullannor, for example. But I guess you only see what you want to see and everything else simply falls by the wayside. There's more than horrible and amazing to any one thing. I prefer the shades of grey over the simple black and white ;)

[bluntblade]

The Siege of Castellax was pretty damn great. Such an utterly grim novel that highlights just how far the Iron Warriors have fallen from grace. Leman Russ I honestly expected more from, the early chapters were a chore and structurally it wasn't a pleasant read. Having only 6 chapters, two of which form prologue and epilogue, was a stupid bloody idea.

 

I'd also wager that bluntblade has not, in fact, read all of Meduson and The Seventh Serpent, which makes Shattered Legion a fantastic value proposition of pretty high quality.

I've held off any SL material except Little Horus because I knew it was incoming.

[bluntblade]

Maybe Castellax and Perturabo combo, then.

[Kais Klip]

I acquired this book via... alternate means. After reading it, I'll be buying a copy out of principle.

 

I honestly forgot what Warhammer was, and why I ever started reading it so long ago. I had to break out the spotify playlist I read the opening trilogy of the Horus Heresy series to.

 

If you haven't already, I implore you to read it. There's no superfluity to it, no fat around the edges nor in its center, like more (read: all) of the recent Horus Heresies. It's concise, as Perturabo would say. Every single side-plot and chapter is captivating. Captivating in the way only a true 40k book can be; its a tragedy unfolding before your very eyes, a tragedy carrying its full definition; a perfectly avoidable, yet inescapable doom reaching its conclusion with little moments of soul-crushing despair. 

 

I never understood why razing a planet was a big deal. Nostramo, Olympia. Eh, lots of people died, big deal, get over it. But this book made me understand. It drove the point home with just a single line.

 

And this was all done through the eyes of a Legionary, through a core plot-thread, and not via the means of some expendable mortal. The book was IVth legion and liege, and it stayed IVth legion and liege, from beginning to end. 

 

I literally had an uplift of mood once I realized there are other legions out there, and maybe the setting isn't as grim under another liege. I remembered about the Wolves, so it was double-heresy, but I honestly appreciated the lack of third-party Legion presence; it served to compartmentalize the novel and soak it in its very own brand of gloom.

 

Plus, I miss the days where I had to google some of the words in a Warhammer 40,000 book. I'll be sniffing out Guy Haley works from now on. 

 

Oh, and of course:

 

It explains everything. What a lovely hypothesis indeed. 

Edited May 14, 2017 by Kais Klip

[Ascanius]

Agree on blame - but as I said before - why nobody rebelled against his rule in his own Legion? Why they are stumbling automata agreeing to die on a whim of a madmen? Why Emperor didn't do about it? That 'logic' person started with decimation of his own Legion. He made IWs kill 1/10 of their brothers - , nobody argued about that, Emperor didn't know about that?

Hasn't Emperor saw how 'insane' and raging Perturabo became?

 

If you think that the Emperor would have punished Perturabo for the decimation, then I think you don't understand the Emperor.

 

The Emperor is the guy who took Angron from his rebel army and left them to be massacred. The Emperor is the guy who examined the Butcher's Nails implants in Angron, concluded he'd die if they were removed, and decided an Angron compromised by the Nails was still of more use than a dead Angron.

 

The Emperor didn't punish Lorgar for teaching that the Emperor was a god. The Emperor punished Lorgar for taking so long preaching that the Emperor was a god and making shrine worlds out of his conquests that it slowed the pace of the Great Crusade in his sectors.

 

It makes perfect sense that the Emperor didn't punish Perturabo for the decimation of the Iron Warriors. I have no doubt the Emperor would agree that nine-tenths of a Legion fighting harder than ever in fear of their Primarch is more useful to the Great Crusade than a whole Legion with their weakness and failures unpunished.

 

At the very least, the Emperor was exactly the type to say "Let's see if he gets results."

[Ascanius]

Pragmatic for a tyrant - sure. Pragmatic for a humanity savior? right....

 

You're on the cusp of Getting It, mate. One step further . . .

[HeritorA]

Huh. You must've missed the countless pieces of criticism I leveled, to the point of chewing dear veterannoob's ear off about Shadow of Ullannor, for example. But I guess you only see what you want to see and everything else simply falls by the wayside. There's more than horrible and amazing to any one thing. I prefer the shades of grey over the simple black and white

'You must've missed the countless pieces of criticism I leveled, to the point of chewing dear veterannoob's ear off about Shadow of Ullannor, for example.' - yeap, cause all i see 5 stars everywhere lol. You best reviews with constructive critic are sunked so deep you need a suite to dig them up.

 

'There's more than horrible and amazing to any one thing.' - shades of grey are a crappy excuse for not having your own opinion, created to help emos and cry babies of this world to live with themselves.

 

As for the 'Captivating in the way only a true 40k book can be; its a tragedy unfolding before your very eyes, a tragedy carrying its full definition; a perfectly avoidable, yet inescapable doom reaching its conclusion with little moments of soul-crushing despair.'

- not so. Nothing could have been avoidable by that point. Everything is set and can't be changed, cause: 'GW and BL wants so'. Better than Guilliman, worse than Russ and Magnus, that's what Perturabo is.

 

 

Pragmatic for a tyrant - sure. Pragmatic for a humanity savior? right....

 

You're on the cusp of Getting It, mate. One step further . . .

 

Lol,mhacdebhandia

I know who the Emperor 'is' - I was trying to have a discussion with The Observer brother