Prot's Take on BIG Changes for Deathwatch in 8th Edition

[Prot]

Here's another tidbit from my side, Heavy thunder hammers can be only used by vanguard vets with jump packs :< So still no black shield with a heavy thunder hammer...

Deathwatch Frag Cannon:

Frag Round 8" Assault 2D6 S6 AP-1 1DMG Auto Hit

Solid Round 24" Assault 2 S7 AP-2 2DMG Against targets within half range attacks are resolved at S9 and AP-3

edit: and Melta Fists are still an option for Terminators and any Veteran can take Heavy Thunder Hammers too not just Vanguard Vets.

Whew. Thanks for that. My morning was looking ugly with all the heavy hammers I have on stuff that needed to get ripped off. Does this include Black Shields? (I still kept mine modeled that way in spite of GW. lol )

Frag Cannon looks very solid. Just need points to be sure of all of this fitting into a regular list.

Basically none of the leaks I've read have a heck of a lot to do with DW. Not sure why... maybe they have become that unpopular for the time being. We do know that Primaris are out of the question which kind of stinks from an expansion of the hobby side of things.

The Frag cannon has to be pretty amazing I think... same with the IHB. At the end of the day if we end up with another (somewhat) dysfunctional Sternguard army... it's going to be a tough pill to swallow.

Also it's important to note the points cost is going to be key as well.... watching people react to the Landraider (For example) before knowing the points and then after knowing the points value was pretty interesting to see.

GW employees have said the 'office favorite' is the Redeemer. Now with Split Fire this is exactly why I'd like to put faith back into the Corvus Blackstar (still the coolest flyer in the Imperium!)

Kind of off topic on the Corvus, with Split Fire points providing, I'd probably build my next one with Hurricane Bolters but their positioning on the top of the flyer always confused me for firing arch.

Hold up, are you saying Deathwatch will NOT be able to field primaris marines in their army like the rest of the space marines? If so, where is this information?

My understanding is the Primaris stuff doesn't have the "Deathwatch" Chapter option. You can still take them, but as I understand it they can't be Deathwatch.

[mjrwaud]

It seems there's some good and bad in the new rules, they're all up on Reddit now... (https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/).

 

I'm no rule monger / expert, so I'll leave the deep-dive analysis to those better at it.

 

Special Issue Ammo (bolt pistols, boltgun, twin boltgun, stalker boltgun) :

 

Dragonfire = +1 to hit targets in cover

Hellfire = Always would on 2+ (not vehicles)

Kraken = +3"/+6" range to pistols/others, AP -1

Vengeance = -3"/-6" range to pistols/others, AP -2

 

One dissappoinement:

 

Stalker boltgun = 30" Heavy 2, S4, AP0, D1 but with no sniping rule... :(

 

Confusing:

Captain / Librarian / Chaplain rules use the <Space Marine> rule sheets so don't have the "special issue ammo" rule and the captain sheet comes with his own "master crafted bolgtun" with a better profile, would be nice if they could use the SI ammo.

[Runefyre]

So no deep striking power armored units.....boo.

[Prot]

Thanks for the update...

 

Does this mean Combi-Bolters do not have SIA?

 

I was really feeling like this would be the Combi-weapon edition but without SIA, perhaps not.

 

+1 to hit units in cover is weird. I thought cover added to the save value for the unit in cover.

Hellfire is still actually going to be the goto round for me. I fiddled with a lot of different load outs, but as time wore on I pretty much exclusively used Poision. I honestly did not think it would retain 2+. If it words against the likes of Primarchs, etc, that's crazy good, and there's a lot of higher T items now.

 

Stalker Boltgun is indeed a bit disappointing.

 

+EDIT+

 

Just saw this on Artemis:

 

 

Artemis has Posioned 4+ flamer (i mean its not posioned but u get what i mean) and d6 mortal wound dealing statis bomb that can still kill him if he misses, costs 130

We still have special ammo including the 2+ poisoned shots

We have no inquisition keyword which is heresy

 

Looks like Art can still blow himself up! :)

[Reyner]

Xenopurge Slugs in the DW Shotgun are pretty awesome:

Xenopurge Slug 16" Assault 2 S4 AP-1 DMG1 - If the target is within half range its attacks are resolved as DMG2

Cryptclearer Round 16" Assault 2 S4 AP0 DMG1 - You can reroll all failed wounds rolls for this weapon

----

Wouldn't we still get the SIA when firing the bolter component of a combi-bolter?

[mjrwaud]

Indeed, it seems if you want to deep strike power armoured marines you have to use expensive drop pods that can't fit terminators / jump packs (although there's no scatter).

 

I'm not sure about the combi-weapons... that really seems like a simple oversight (like the lack of SI Ammo on the HQ units).

 

Yup, +1 to hit is weird when it cover is +1 save... but it is what it is.

Yeah, hellfire seems crazy good against big ugly things (tyranids).

 

Oh, one interesting thing is the "Deathwatch Teleport Homer" that comes with a biker / bike squad

= If this unit has a deathwatch teleport homer, place it anywhere in your deployment zone when your army deploys. While there are any of these on the table, any unit with a DW terminator can perform an emergency teleport to within 6" of this homer instead of moving. One use only per homer, homer destroyed if an enemy comes within 9" of it.

 

Kind of a cool "escape card".

[leth]

We have deathwatch teleport homers now though.  So our bikes can drop them down and instead of moving that turn they can perform an emergency teleport!!  Nice way around it. 

[Kargrym]

Thanks for the update...

 

Does this mean Combi-Bolters do not have SIA?

 

I was really feeling like this would be the Combi-weapon edition but without SIA, perhaps not.

 

SIA is on the units ability profile not tied to the weapon, since combi-bolters is considers a bolter + another item I would say RAW you get SIA on anything "boltgun"

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

The boltgun potion of a combi is still a Boltgun, you get SIA.

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

As for Mission Tactics, I take it we may see them in the form of Strategems in a future book. 

[Anarnii]

So we could now take bolt pistol and chainsword. Bolt pistol shot and 3 attacks in combat is probably the best of any space marine troop choice i've seen.

[Irbis]

+1 to hit units in cover is weird. I thought cover added to the save value for the unit in cover.

 

You're actually both wrong, some kinds of cover (like smoke launchers on vehicles) do subtract -1 from to hit.

[Vel'Cona]

As for Mission Tactics, I take it we may see them in the form of Strategems in a future book. 

 

Didn't GW say that Faction Strategems would be in the BRB, along with the generic ones?  From what I can tell noone has seen the full content for the BRB yet.

[shanewatts]

I think I am still going to try out some Drop Pod assault, rocking vet squads with the varying load-outs for testing. We have one advantage going for us that I am not sure other armies have in regards to reserve shenanigans, we can take units of a single model (bikes, terms, vanguard.) So in theory we can take 6 solo bikers, and then 3 units in drop pods.

 

Something I am going to be putting to the test soon.

 

Oh and seeing if I can make the Corvus worth using too haha.

[Moostick]

we can take units of a single model (bikes, terms, vanguard.) So in theory we can take 6 solo bikers, and then 3 units in drop pods.

 

 

Unfortunately we can't takes single models anymore. We have minimum of 3 for bikes, and 5 for Terminators and VV (although one page for Terms says 3, I believe that's a typo). Was likely done to prevent filling up detachment shenanigans. 

[shanewatts]

If you look at the unit size in the Deathwatch point cost section of the index, all three of them are listed as 1-X unit size (outside of the killteam.) Yes I agree the unit entry in the unit description section says what you are quoting, but the section used for matched play says otherwise.

 

Granted the different sections having different sizes more than likely needs an FAQ, I am certainly going by the unit sizes in the section designed for match play.

[Moostick]

Can't really argue there. I feel like these different styles of play within the same book is confusing and not very well thought out.

 

Like in the supposedly "Narrative Play" section, why would anyone not take a better ranged or melee weapon when it's completely free?

[shanewatts]

Can't really argue there. I feel like these different styles of play within the same book is confusing and not very well thought out.

 

Like in the supposedly "Narrative Play" section, why would anyone not take a better ranged or melee weapon when it's completely free?

 

For sure, with the different rules for different play, it certainly adds some ambiguity. I understand why GW has done it (especially with the precedent set by AoS,) it is just going to be a learning curve for the players I think.

[Moostick]

After you mentioned the difference in unit sizes between Narrative and Matched Play, I went back to take a look and noticed something funny. But yes, you are absolutely correct about the unit sizes.

No where does it say you need to have 5 Veterans to start a Kill Team. The perfect Assault Unit would be Terminators and VV only. Absolutely not rules as intended, but just a funny oversight by them.

[shanewatts]

After you mentioned the difference in unit sizes between Narrative and Matched Play, I went back to take a look and noticed something funny. But yes, you are absolutely correct about the unit sizes.

No where does it say you need to have 5 Veterans to start a Kill Team. The perfect Assault Unit would be Terminators and VV only. Absolutely not rules as intended, but just a funny oversight by them.

That didn't even occur to me, hrm. That deserves some looking into as well haha.

[mjrwaud]

After you mentioned the difference in unit sizes between Narrative and Matched Play, I went back to take a look and noticed something funny. But yes, you are absolutely correct about the unit sizes.

No where does it say you need to have 5 Veterans to start a Kill Team. The perfect Assault Unit would be Terminators and VV only. Absolutely not rules as intended, but just a funny oversight by them.

It is quite odd that the number of models/unit in the Deathwatch point value appendix are from 1-5 models for bikers, terminators, and vanguard veteran units... but all of those appendices seem to be full of typos and oversights. For example, the generic space marine section has unit headings for "HQ" "Troops" "Elites" ... "Named Characters" etc. while those in the subsequent sections are still divided into the same obvious groups but labelled "Units" "Units" "Units"... kinda sloppy editing / proofreading.

Sorry to say (because I wished you were right) but under the Kill Team rules it distinctly says "This unit contains 5 Deathwatch Veterans".

[Vel'Cona]

 

Sorry to say (because I wished you were right) but under the Kill Team rules it distinctly says "This unit contains 5 Deathwatch Veterans".

 

Agreed.  If we're going to argue RAW, it seems pretty clear the KT is required to take 5 Vets to start with.  That being said, we can expect when GW is cranking out 15+ army lists for disparate factions in such a short period of time that there will be some issues with the release.  Luckily, they seem committed to FAQ/Errata in a way that they haven't been even in the closing days of 7th edition, especially in terms of factoring point costs.

[Moostick]

Haha, in no way would I actually argue we should be able to do that just because it's written. In Matched Play, it would be legal, but it is similar to the bolter + shotgun mistake. It was just a silly oversight I wanted to point out for a small chuckle; no need to take it so seriously.

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

Thanks for the update...

Does this mean Combi-Bolters do not have SIA?

I was really feeling like this would be the Combi-weapon edition but without SIA, perhaps not.

+1 to hit units in cover is weird. I thought cover added to the save value for the unit in cover.

Hellfire is still actually going to be the goto round for me. I fiddled with a lot of different load outs, but as time wore on I pretty much exclusively used Poision. I honestly did not think it would retain 2+. If it words against the likes of Primarchs, etc, that's crazy good, and there's a lot of higher T items now.

Stalker Boltgun is indeed a bit disappointing.

+EDIT+

Just saw this on Artemis:

Artemis has Posioned 4+ flamer (i mean its not posioned but u get what i mean) and d6 mortal wound dealing statis bomb that can still kill him if he misses, costs 130

We still have special ammo including the 2+ poisoned shots

We have no inquisition keyword which is heresy

Looks like Art can still blow himself up!

Combi-bolters can still get special issue ammo, do not worry. :D

[Silas7]

If I didn't feel bad about it I would love to be able to replace storm bolters with combi bolters so they could still shoot SIA, but i'm not sure pugs would allow that. Just seems silly given the two weapons are identical.