Prot's Take on BIG Changes for Deathwatch in 8th Edition

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

It seems there's some good and bad in the new rules, they're all up on Reddit now... (https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/).

I'm no rule monger / expert, so I'll leave the deep-dive analysis to those better at it.

Special Issue Ammo (bolt pistols, boltgun, twin boltgun, stalker boltgun) :

Dragonfire = +1 to hit targets in cover

Hellfire = Always would on 2+ (not vehicles)

Kraken = +3"/+6" range to pistols/others, AP -1

Vengeance = -3"/-6" range to pistols/others, AP -2

One dissappoinement:

Stalker boltgun = 30" Heavy 2, S4, AP0, D1 but with no sniping rule...

Confusing:

Captain / Librarian / Chaplain rules use the <Space Marine> rule sheets so don't have the "special issue ammo" rule and the captain sheet comes with his own "master crafted bolgtun" with a better profile, would be nice if they could use the SI ammo.

Perhaps it's because Stalker Bolters provide additional range but is still as loud as an average bolter. Not too sure about that myself as I am basing this off of the Space Marine video game for visualization.

As for the Captain/Libby/Chaplain, do not forget that you can legally change their CHAPTER keyword to DEATHWATCH. So aside from some restrictions listed in the Deathwatch page, they can still get Special Issue Ammunition for the applicable weapon.

If I didn't feel bad about it I would love to be able to replace storm bolters with combi bolters so they could still shoot SIA, but i'm not sure pugs would allow that. Just seems silly given the two weapons are identical.

Sure you can. It's still within the rules anyway.

[Lexicanum]

It's important to note that as written, I don't believe this is true. There's no indication that the Deathwatch keyword confers the SIA special rule automatically. Deathwatch Terminators for example, have "Deathwatch" as a keyword but no SIA.

 

Per the description, SIA is simply "common to several Deathwatch units". Not "all" Deathwatch units.

 

In the absence of a specific list of units with SIA, we fall back to the only reliable metric: the presence of the special rule in each unit's datasheet. It's very plainly missing from the vanilla Captain and Librarian and Chaplain.

 

Yes, HQ units taken from vanilla marine entries should probably have SIA in a Deathwatch detachment, given that they had it in 7th. But that should be a discussion that you have with your regular opponents, because the rulebook doesn't seem to support it as-is.

[Moostick]

I agree with Lexicanum. We need to pull away from 7th where rules were almost always universal. In this instance with SIA, it'll likely be fixed once we get our own Codex, but RAW in this initial release that is correct.

 

Back to Silas7's comment though, I believe he was talking specifically about the weapon "combi-bolter", which is actually a weapon that is not available to Deathwatch.

[Irbis]

Back to Silas7's comment though, I believe he was talking specifically about the weapon "combi-bolter", which is actually a weapon that is not available to Deathwatch.

Yeah, he meant what once was 'twin linked bolter'. Funny thing is, it's gear of all loyalist terminators except the kind DW can take. Tartas, Cataphracts, both have something that would be brilliant with SIA. And that's why we can't take it

[SnakeChisler]

Seen the books today at the local GW shop Deathwatch section lists weapons with SIA as long as you have faction keyword deathwatch and have one of the listed weapons you have SIA end of

[Silas7]

Back to Silas7's comment though, I believe he was talking specifically about the weapon "combi-bolter", which is actually a weapon that is not available to Deathwatch.

Yeah, he meant what once was 'twin linked bolter'. Funny thing is, it's gear of all loyalist terminators except the kind DW can take. Tartas, Cataphracts, both have something that would be brilliant with SIA. And that's why we can't take it

TBH if termis had SIA they would almost certainly become auto takes.

[leth]

Seen the books today at the local GW shop Deathwatch section lists weapons with SIA as long as you have faction keyword deathwatch and have one of the listed weapons you have SIA end of

 

Anything else that was missing from the leaked pages?

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

It's important to note that as written, I don't believe this is true. There's no indication that the Deathwatch keyword confers the SIA special rule automatically. Deathwatch Terminators for example, have "Deathwatch" as a keyword but no SIA.

 

Per the description, SIA is simply "common to several Deathwatch units". Not "all" Deathwatch units.

 

In the absence of a specific list of units with SIA, we fall back to the only reliable metric: the presence of the special rule in each unit's datasheet. It's very plainly missing from the vanilla Captain and Librarian and Chaplain.

 

Yes, HQ units taken from vanilla marine entries should probably have SIA in a Deathwatch detachment, given that they had it in 7th. But that should be a discussion that you have with your regular opponents, because the rulebook doesn't seem to support it as-is.

 

 

The rules say "the following abilities are common to several Deathwatch units"

This implies that any one who retains the keyword DEATHWATCH as their chapter can benefit from the SIA, provided they have the right weapon to use it. 

 

 

Captains and Librarians can get different benefits depending on what chapter they are associated with. 

[Moostick]

 

The rules say "the following abilities are common to several Deathwatch units"

This implies that any one who retains the keyword DEATHWATCH as their chapter can benefit from the SIA, provided they have the right weapon to use it.

 

Snake said something in the book makes it clear, so we can refer to that once we see it. I don't have a good way of explaining other than this sentence you're quoting definitely does not say what you're thinking it does.

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

 

 

The rules say "the following abilities are common to several Deathwatch units"

This implies that any one who retains the keyword DEATHWATCH as their chapter can benefit from the SIA, provided they have the right weapon to use it.

 

Snake said something in the book makes it clear, so we can refer to that once we see it. I don't have a good way of explaining other than this sentence you're quoting definitely does not say what you're thinking it does.

 

 

I would appreciate it if he would provide me a reference for me to see if that really isn't the case. But the way I look at it, the Captain and the Librarian are the more malleable models in terms of what they can receive depending on what chapter they belong to. For example, Captains and Librarians could get the Unforgiven ability if they are fielded as Dark Angels. Or if they are Blood Angels, he may get Black Rage (I guess) and in the case of the Librarian, he'd access the Sanguinary discipline for his powers. 

 

Special Issue Ammo is just another ability that is granted to those who are allowed to swap their CHAPTER keyword for DEATHWATCH. Of course, Terminator Captains can't use SIA because he can only have a storm bolter. 

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

 

 

Back to Silas7's comment though, I believe he was talking specifically about the weapon "combi-bolter", which is actually a weapon that is not available to Deathwatch.

 

Ah, I see. Now that I look at it, yeah, you are correct there. I mistook combi-bolter for something else. 

[Moostick]

The rules say "the following abilities are common to several Deathwatch units"

This implies that any one who retains the keyword DEATHWATCH as their chapter can benefit from the SIA, provided they have the right weapon to use it.

Snake said something in the book makes it clear, so we can refer to that once we see it. I don't have a good way of explaining other than this sentence you're quoting definitely does not say what you're thinking it does.

I would appreciate it if he would provide me a reference for me to see if that really isn't the case. But the way I look at it, the Captain and the Librarian are the more malleable models in terms of what they can receive depending on what chapter they belong to. For example, Captains and Librarians could get the Unforgiven ability if they are fielded as Dark Angels. Or if they are Blood Angels, he may get Black Rage (I guess) and in the case of the Librarian, he'd access the Sanguinary discipline for his powers.

Special Issue Ammo is just another ability that is granted to those who are allowed to swap their CHAPTER keyword for DEATHWATCH. Of course, Terminator Captains can't use SIA because he can only have a storm bolter.

We go back to the the misconception that Special Rules are tied to Keywords. They aren't and it is never implied that they are. If they are, then every model in a Kill Team with a Terminator, Biker and Vanguard would be a Terminator with a Jump Pack on a Bike that has a 5++, Turbo Charge and can Teleport Strike/Jump Pack Assault.

I can't really make a reference because that's just not what that sentence says. It's a simple "We really don't want to repeat this same rule nth number of times, so we'll just say this here.". I can ask that you provide a reference that says they get the rule and not that you think they should. I don't disagree that it should, but it does not say it does. We don't need to try this hard to make this work from a vague reference like that though; this is an instance where no normal person would argue if you said they have it. Anyone who does just because it's not written would be someone I wouldn't want to play wit. This is a small oversight by GW that makes it vague.

Going by your implication, then a Dark Angels Captain would get Jink. Nothing says he needs to be on a bike. We also know that only certain factions within DA would get Unforgiven. Same with a regular Blood Angel Captain getting Black Rage? We know he would not. Now if someone tried to use your reasoning to give their DA Captain Jink, I would throw the book at him.

Edit: Should note that this will all be cleared up once the DW Codex is released and the Captain gets his own datasheet page. I'm not worried this will be fixed.

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

Going by your implication, then a Dark Angels Captain would get Jink. Nothing says he needs to be on a bike. We also know that only certain factions within DA would get Unforgiven. Same with a regular Blood Angel Captain getting Black Rage? We know he would not. Now if someone tried to use your reasoning to give their DA Captain Jink, I would throw the book at him.

I have no prior experience with Blood Angels, but I definitely know that a Dark Angel Captain does not get Jink. It explicitly says so on it's page. It specifies that it gets the DEATHWING keyword and Unforgiven ability only. So long as they are a part of a specific faction, they get the abilities that are applicable to them, like so long as the Captain, Librarian or Chaplain is using a bolt pistol, either of them could still use SIA.

That's how I interpret the rules here. But I suppose an FAQ would be required to ensure everyone is on the same page.

[Moostick]

Going by your implication, then a Dark Angels Captain would get Jink. Nothing says he needs to be on a bike. We also know that only certain factions within DA would get Unforgiven. Same with a regular Blood Angel Captain getting Black Rage? We know he would not. Now if someone tried to use your reasoning to give their DA Captain Jink, I would throw the book at him.

I have no prior experience with Blood Angels, but I definitely know that a Dark Angel Captain does not get Jink. It explicitly says so on it's page. It specifies that it gets the DEATHWING keyword and Unforgiven ability only. So long as they are a part of a specific faction, they get the abilities that are applicable to them, like so long as the Captain, Librarian or Chaplain is using a bolt pistol, either of them could still use SIA.

That's how I interpret the rules here. But I suppose an FAQ would be required to ensure everyone is on the same page.

No where on the front page of the DA section that says "the following abilities are common to several Dark Angel units" (which is the equivalent of what you're referencing from the DW page) does it say Unforgiven is limited to Deathwing keyword, and no where does it link Deathwing keyword with Unforgiven explicitly other than the fact it only appears on Deathwing datasheets. The 2 footer says it gains the Deathwing keyword and the Unforgiven ability, but it does not say they are specifically connected; otherwise there would be no need to mention both because, by your assumption, mentioning Deathwing alone would mean it gets Unforgiven. We know that only Deathwing get it, but because of other reasons.

The Captain is only an example; your assumption would apply to any generic unit listed in the front page where it asks you to refer to the vanilla SM pages as there is no specific DA version, which would include Apothecary, generic Chaplain, Assault Squad, etc. By your interpretation, all these generic units without the 2 footer would still get Unforgiven and Jink once we replace <Chapter> with <Dark Angels> , which we know is not true and not what it implies. You can't selectively decide only certain things apply when they are worded precisely the same between the Dark Angel and Deathwatch front pages.

I'm only saying this because we're talking about RAW, and the fact people are trying to tie keywords with special rules. This is not the 7th, and no one has yet to show anything that says the two are tied. There could very well be something that clears this up as Snake mentioned, but this isn't it. If we're talking about RAI, then yes, I'm confident we get SIA.

[SnakeChisler]

It says clearly what you can and can't take and where the rules are for items

 

 

if you replace <Chapter> with Deathwatch you get the abilities one of which is SIA on certain weapons which are listed

 

Next you'll be claiming that raw they don't get ATSKNF

[Irbis]

TBH if termis had SIA they would almost certainly become auto takes.

Why?

From my point of view, they got big nerf being Codex-like unit now, and even if they had SIA, vets or bikers would be still more efficient point for point. Best use of terminators now is massed assault cannon deep strike which makes SIA moot, if they had it they would merely be decent without 3x heavy gun (and even then you couldn't use best SIA option on the turn you DS)...

[Moostick]

It says clearly what you can and can't take and where the rules are for items

if you replace <Chapter> with Deathwatch you get the abilities one of which is SIA on certain weapons which are listed

Next you'll be claiming that raw they don't get ATSKNF

Actually, you're the one claiming all those DA units get Unforgiven and Jink, and all Blood Angels get Black Rage. And that Deathwatch Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders, Drop Pods, Rhinos, and Razobacks get ATSKNF. Not that it'd help them. Silly you though, because on the vanilla SM sheets for the actual Marines, they say they get ATSKNF.

Special Rules for everyone!

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

It says clearly what you can and can't take and where the rules are for items

 

 

if you replace <Chapter> with Deathwatch you get the abilities one of which is SIA on certain weapons which are listed

 

Next you'll be claiming that raw they don't get ATSKNF

 

Exactly! Each unit will naturally not get all abilities within the Chapter. Just the ones applicable to them be it based on what they are and what weapon they are using. Common sense plays a key role here. 

 

And Moo, I never said anything that the DEATHWING keyword and the Unforgiven ability are connected. I am saying they get both of them when they are fielded as Dark Angels. That's all. The point still stands, generic HQs like the Captain, the Librarian and the Chaplain will get their Special Issue Ammo if their chapter is DEATHWATCH. Naturally restrictions are mentioned on the appropriate chapter pages so that things are sensible as to what they can get and what they can't get. Imo, the rules are pretty clear on that front. Could have been improved but still clear enough to me.

[Irbis]

I noticed funny thing, BTW. Do you know what is listed in 'combi-bolters' table? Storm Bolter. Does it mean it gets SIA benefit, especially seeing it's rapid fire weapon now?

It would be amusing if Kill Team terminators get to use it seeing SIA is blanket ability for the whole kill team...

EDIT: also, DW vets can swap bolters for storm bolters. We enuff dakka orks now?

EDIT 2: Reading deeper into it now, I don't think argument for combi-weapons is good enough right now, seeing you can strongly argue they don't get SIA at all, but unless GW amends SIA item by item, granting it to combi-guns should apply to storm bolter as well, which would be amusing...

[Prot]

To me, from the info I've read, it appears Combi-weapons wouldn't get SIA, just based on the list under the special rules page. 

 

Logically I would say 'yes', because it's the same round of ammo, fired by the same model. However you will always have someone argue with you that a "bolter" and a Combi-Bolter are two different things. (even though functionally they are a special gun, strapped to a bolter)

 

Should a Combi have it? Probably.

 

The only way I can see we could get away with stating the Combi does have SIA is to go to the definition of a Combi Bolter. Wherever it is defined if it is clearly stated that the Combi Bolter is a "Bolter" with an extra feature, then surely it must take SIA....

 

That being said I really feel like the change to Combi's is a very strong move for Deathwatch. I really hope they retain SIA.

[shanewatts]

On the special rules page for SIA : bolt pistol, boltgun, twin boltgun, stalker, guardian spear.

 

Combi-X

Two weapons listed, second one is boltgun. So you are firing a boltgun yes?

 

Thats my arguement, it needs clarification though.

[Prot]

Well I'd definitely agree with that, but perhaps I'm too biased. What you did quote does answer my suggestion that the Combi-X lists a "Boltgun" as pert of the make up of the gun. 

[Vel'Cona]

Probably needs a FAQ.  I'm sure GW will be pushing more than a few of these out in the next month or two as we poke holes in the indexes.  :P

[Moostick]

 

The point still stands, generic HQs like the Captain, the Librarian and the Chaplain will get their Special Issue Ammo if their chapter is DEATHWATCH. Naturally restrictions are mentioned on the appropriate chapter pages so that things are sensible as to what they can get and what they can't get.

 

Please provide a word for word quote that says this. Where do you see that getting the keyword Deathwatch gets SIA? If you're relying on what I highlighted as red and yellow, then why are you selectively deciding Unforgiven and Jink aren't given when it's worded exactly the same?

 

We are talking about RAW, not RAI. Please provide something in writing in these allowances, restrictions and such you keep mentioning.

[Black Cohort]

Do hurricane bolters now get SIA?