Prot's Take on BIG Changes for Deathwatch in 8th Edition

[mjrwaud]

Whooooa... it's gettin a little hot in here!

Flamers seem to be really good this edition, but it's still -super- early to start looking for xenos infiltrators!

The -leaked- indices we're all basing our plans on have been clearly intended as stop-gap measures to make sure we have -some- rules to start playing before our actual codices are released (whenever that might be) and are obviously full of minor errors and oversights. It seems completely reasonable that a Deathwatch chaplain with a bolt pistol gains special issue ammo, so I'm sure the people I play with won't have a problem with it... probably because I'm 99% sure their indices have very similar oversights. So the best we can do now is go with a combination of rules as written / rules as intended discussed with friends / opponents and making sure we ALL submit clear, polite, yet persistent questions to the emperor of our wallets to get a -well thought out- FAQ to clarify.

A few of the items I'll be asking (perhaps when we get our faction focus, or after release date):

- Do models gaining the <Deathwatch> keyword and equiped with compatible weaponry (bolt pistol, bolter, etc.) gain the special issue ammunition (SIA) special rule.

- Are weapons sharing the same profile as those compatible weapons (ie. bolter profile of combi-weapon) capable of firing SIA?

- Power fists and Thunder hammers are identical in point cost yet the thunder hammer is clearly better (3 damage rather than 1d3), is this intended?

- Is the cost of storm shields (15 pts) intended? Shouldn't it be 15 pts for character models and 5 pts for other models as in the <Space Marine> list?

- Why are terminator captains/librarians, and captains / chaplains / librarians so limited in their wargear options?

If we all ask some of these questions that matter to us (because we're obviously passionate about it) repeatedly, persistently, yet politely, we just might get what we want. "Squeaky wheel gets the grease" and "you catch more flies with honey", and all that.

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

I ain't gonna lie. The one thing that sucked about the Captain in Terminator Armor was the fact that he has less options to work with compared to the generic Captain. And as for Librarians, I'd have preferred if they had the option to pick one psychic power depending on what chapter he hails from. I understand that the Psychic disciplines are secrets for the parent Chapter, but at least a lesser version of that would have been nice. :(

 

I am using my Interrogator Chaplain to act as my stand-in Deathwatch Chaplain after I sold my entire Dark Angels collection. It does pain me to count his glued Power Fist as a convertible bolt pistol, but hey, I can afford some level of creativity. :D

[shanewatts]

I ain't gonna lie. The one thing that sucked about the Captain in Terminator Armor was the fact that he has less options to work with compared to the generic Captain. And as for Librarians, I'd have preferred if they had the option to pick one psychic power depending on what chapter he hails from. I understand that the Psychic disciplines are secrets for the parent Chapter, but at least a lesser version of that would have been nice.

I am using my Interrogator Chaplain to act as my stand-in Deathwatch Chaplain after I sold my entire Dark Angels collection. It does pain me to count his glued Power Fist as a convertible bolt pistol, but hey, I can afford some level of creativity.

You can always use your librarian from another chapter alongside the deathwatch, and have him be modeled as deathwatch. AKA Use your SW Deathwatch Terminator Librarian as a Rune priest with Terminator armor. Sure you'll be lacking the Deathwatch keyword, but you'll get the SW powers, if that is what you want.

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

I ain't gonna lie. The one thing that sucked about the Captain in Terminator Armor was the fact that he has less options to work with compared to the generic Captain. And as for Librarians, I'd have preferred if they had the option to pick one psychic power depending on what chapter he hails from. I understand that the Psychic disciplines are secrets for the parent Chapter, but at least a lesser version of that would have been nice.

I am using my Interrogator Chaplain to act as my stand-in Deathwatch Chaplain after I sold my entire Dark Angels collection. It does pain me to count his glued Power Fist as a convertible bolt pistol, but hey, I can afford some level of creativity.

You can always use your librarian from another chapter alongside the deathwatch, and have him be modeled as deathwatch. AKA Use your SW Deathwatch Terminator Librarian as a Rune priest with Terminator armor. Sure you'll be lacking the Deathwatch keyword, but you'll get the SW powers, if that is what you want.

That's actually not a bad idea. I have a Dark Angels Librarian right now, and I intend on buying a Blood Angels Terminator Librarian in a couple of weeks.

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

Any of the buff powers typically won't affect the Deathwatch, limiting the utility of allying in another chapter's librarians.

[shanewatts]

Any of the buff powers typically won't affect the Deathwatch, limiting the utility of allying in another chapter's librarians.

 

Good call.

[Moostick]

Librarius psychic buff powers affect <Adeptus Astartes> and are not chapter specific, so you're fine.

[Master Avoghai]

Do hurricane bolters now get SIA?

Since twin boltguns are in the list and that the crusader gain the [Deathwatch] keyword, I hardly see how it wouldn't :devil:

 

+++ edit+++

 

Actually it doesn't... hurricane boltguns are not TL boltgun any more but they are ... well "hurricane boltguns" :'(

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

The Deathwatch keyword doesn't confer anything, so the Crusader does not have SIA regardless.

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

The Deathwatch keyword doesn't confer anything, so the Crusader does not have SIA regardless.

 

That aside, even then the Crusader has a hurricane bolter, which is it's own profile when compared to what it used to be: three twin-bolters per sponson. I kinda wish they did though

[Vel'Cona]

The age-old "I wish every bolter was SIA" is interesting to me, because it implies that the ammo can just be slapped ad-hoc into any bolter.  While this is true from a conceptual perspective (as they're all the same .75 calibre round), in order to be able to actively switch between ammunition types the DW Veterans have specifically engineered and specially designed boltguns that can do so.  These boltguns are likely even more temperamental than a standard boltgun due to the unique design of the ammo-selector, meaning that maintenance is probably significantly more difficult than even the already-challenging "standard issue" weapon.

 

Extrapolated into the Hurricane Bolter, we can deduce that having a similar "ammo-selector" and the required remote capability to change it (via the internal gunner on the Land Raider) would be even more complex, and likely unfeasible given the amount of ammunition said weapon goes through compared to a standard single-barrel boltgun.  Even more vexing is the fact that the Hurricane Bolters will often be controlled by the Machine Spirit of the Land Raider, which while capable of targeting is likely not sophisticated enough to deduce "best practices" when using SIA, and therefore makes this function even less desirable.

 

TL:DR; Hurricane Bolters shouldn't have SIA because it's illogical and impractical, based on established background.

[Charlo]

What about Storm bolters though? They still feel like the biggest miss on terminators :(

[leth]

What about Storm bolters though? They still feel like the biggest miss on terminators

If you read the fluff the rounds they are using are extremely expensive and rare. Storm bolters are a spray and pray weapon. I totally understand why they dont let storm bolters use them. I just dont like that they artificially limit our equipment so much.

Luckily we should get a good chunk of those vehicle options back with FW.

[MagicHat]

What about Storm bolters though? They still feel like the biggest miss on terminators

If you read the fluff the rounds they are using are extremely expensive and rare. Storm bolters are a spray and pray weapon. I totally understand why they dont let storm bolters use them. I just dont like that they artificially limit our equipment so much.

Luckily we should get a good chunk of those vehicle options back with FW.

But the twinlinked bolters on bikes gets them.

[leth]

What about Storm bolters though? They still feel like the biggest miss on terminators

If you read the fluff the rounds they are using are extremely expensive and rare. Storm bolters are a spray and pray weapon. I totally understand why they dont let storm bolters use them. I just dont like that they artificially limit our equipment so much.

Luckily we should get a good chunk of those vehicle options back with FW.

But the twinlinked bolters on bikes gets them.

Yep, and I think that bikers can still fire sparingly with their bolters as well. I understand it is a loose argument but from my understanding of the fluff it makes sense

[SnakeChisler]

Just done a quick cost comparison on stuff and the bikers come out well obviously there going to get gubbed by 2 damage weapons but the twin bolters getting 4 shots at 12" with SIA is sweet

 

You have to pay for your power fist on terminators yikes but they can take a power sword / Maul / Lance instead?

[Prot]

Bikes are two wounds as well, are they not?

 

I don't think they look that bad to be honest. I think having speed and 4 shots at 12" is getting some really good mileage out of them.

[Vel'Cona]

Well, DW Bikers are T5 which means only S10+ will wound on 2+, which is nice for dealing with high-powered weapons.  2 Wounds is good but as SnakeChisler said, 2 damage weapons will clear them out easily and there are no Jink saves to fall back on now.  Grav is VERY dangerous for them, by this notion.  They do boast excellent and flexible short-ranged firepower and the ability to fall back and charge should not be underestimated, but IMO there's probably more to be gained from splashing them into a KT rather than trying to take them alone (despite the speed difference).

[Irbis]

The age-old "I wish every bolter was SIA" is interesting to me, because it implies that the ammo can just be slapped ad-hoc into any bolter. While this is true from a conceptual perspective (as they're all the same .75 calibre round), in order to be able to actively switch between ammunition types the DW Veterans have specifically engineered and specially designed boltguns that can do so. These boltguns are likely even more temperamental than a standard boltgun due to the unique design of the ammo-selector, meaning that maintenance is probably significantly more difficult than even the already-challenging "standard issue" weapon.

And yet you have canon models firing SIA from bog standard bolters and pistols. Go figure. But even then, if it's impossible, being able to take one SIA variant decided before game would still be perfectly logical.

Extrapolated into the Hurricane Bolter, we can deduce that having a similar "ammo-selector" and the required remote capability to change it (via the internal gunner on the Land Raider) would be even more complex, and likely unfeasible given the amount of ammunition said weapon goes through compared to a standard single-barrel boltgun. Even more vexing is the fact that the Hurricane Bolters will often be controlled by the Machine Spirit of the Land Raider, which while capable of targeting is likely not sophisticated enough to deduce "best practices" when using SIA, and therefore makes this function even less desirable.

Which is kind of funny because if there is one thing AI in games today is good for, it's taking nanoseconds decision applying right ability to correct opponent. Man, these spirits must really suck if you can't even implement something as simple as <ifHereticArmoured THEN vengeance ELSE ifCover THEN kraken> in them

TL:DR; Hurricane Bolters shouldn't have SIA because it's illogical and impractical, based on established background.

Hurricane, perhaps (though, again, one SIA variant tailored to enemy sounds perfectly fluffy), storm bolters, not so much. In fluff, they were always more accurate, to almost bolter level, cousin of older and more primitive spray-and-pray twin boltguns, but, amusingly enough, DW bikers can take SIA on their really inaccurate weapon even though termies/characters can't...

[Vel'Cona]

Yeah, the Storm Bolter situation is probably just laziness.  To some extent, the use of SIA in Deathwatch will always be a matter of contention because as players we will want it on everything but the devs are going to have to draw the line somewhere to avoid excessive complexity.  In the minimum, we should be content that at least our brother chapters have been denied this resource in the new edition, giving DW back a bit of the "specialness" it had prior to the introduction of Sternguard Veterans.

[Irbis]

Yeah, the Storm Bolter situation is probably just laziness.  To some extent, the use of SIA in Deathwatch will always be a matter of contention because as players we will want it on everything but the devs are going to have to draw the line somewhere to avoid excessive complexity.  In the minimum, we should be content that at least our brother chapters have been denied this resource in the new edition, giving DW back a bit of the "specialness" it had prior to the introduction of Sternguard Veterans.

 

See, to me it's not 'want'. It's 'need'. DW has tools to deal with elite armies, but they have nothing to take on hordes, despite ironically 3 out of 4 horde armies in the game being Xenos. What you need to take on hordes is volume of fire, and where in the whole DW we can find it? On bikes. Maybe in 3x assault cannon termie unit, too. Basic DW vet unit with shotguns is laughably inefficient, with bolters it's so-so (not to diss on SIA but orks/hormagaunts don't really care your ammo is -2 AP).

 

Best example of how GW doesn't get it is in 5th edition - they had competent rule writer back then, and Grey Knights could take psyammo upgrade to take on hordes a bit better (+1 S is not replacement of volume of fire but every shot being made better counts). Then, some hack written their 6th/7th edition book, deleting 50% of their excellent 5th edition Codex, and GK disappeared from tables as main armies, having lost their main response to cheap chaff. Who could have guessed?

 

To me, DW, even with new cheap power weapons, kind of retread GW mistakes with GK - both have units that are too small to really dish out significant damage and while their high quality attacks mitigate it a bit when you're fighting heavy infantry, they will never be a mainstay army if popular build, horde, is cryptonite to their scissor...

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

We could always use combi-flamers. While we no longer have templates, they still seem to be the answer to cutting down horde armies. 

[Aothaine]

We could always use combi-flamers. While we no longer have templates, they still seem to be the answer to cutting down horde armies. 

 

Be careful with that though. 2d6 is not an effective answer unless you roll good on the number of hits. So it can swing to being really good to really bad. Though you don't need to roll to hit so that is pretty decent in overwatch..  goodness the ideas I've just had. 

 

Tau Suits with all flamers and fly are going to be a nightmare to deal with :(

[leth]

Also remember with flamers it is an 8 inch range from the model. So they can get to 8.01 inches away, be out of range, and only need a 8 inch charge to get in.

 

That is assuming that the model with a flamer is the closest. Many assault horde units either reroll assaults or have some bonus to movement/charges. Flamers on overwatch are not a reliable horde counter imo. This is where a lack of access to lieutenants is actually pretty annoying. I hope they listen to feedback about desthwatch and don't artificially limit us so much.

[Moostick]

Flamers are too unreliable; their main use is moreso for Overwatch than horde killing now.. It's a little sad, but our most reliable horde-killer is the Corvus with AC/BSL/Hurricane, followed by AC Razorbacks, and Terminators with AC...basically anything with AC.

 

A squad decked out in regular Heavy Bolters would be decent; if only our base models did not cost so much. or at the very least give us some sort of special ammo with it. Missile Launchers would be nice too, but again the cost.