Prot's Take on BIG Changes for Deathwatch in 8th Edition

[Vel'Cona]

One thing I am really starting to dislike about the rules stuff they are giving us is they are so incomplete it causes us endless speculation. I just wish they'd spill the beans already.

^ So much this. At this point it just feels as if the trickle will actually damage the release by burning people out rather than pushing them to buy new stuff.

[Prot]

Well I guess we can add: BIG change #11 for Deathwatch: Infantry shooting at multiple targets.
 
The GW example is the tip of the iceberg:
 

models in a squad can fire at different targets. So, this means your Tactical Squad can have your boys with bolters deal with that onrushing Hormagaunt horde, while the flamer bathes a nearby Lictor in prometheum fire, and the squad’s krak missile takes an opportunistic pop-shot at that onrushing Carnifex 

 

 

So the most specialized army in the game can take a squad of 5 vets with a lot of various loadouts, have the Frag Cannons wack a high T model, turn the shot guns on the Chaff, and let the IHB rip off a few models in the distance.

 

This rule might actually benefit DW more than most... heck any army in the game. No more wasted shots (I always hated mixing Shotguns with other stuff).

 

I don't know if you can still tank with Termie, but my old squad of Cyclone Missile Termie in a squad of Stalker Bolters looks a little better too. 

 

Now the big question is... do you have to declare all of your targets before shooting any weapons? 

[robofish7591]

The new split fire rules are going to be awesome with the varied load outs deathwatch can take.  I think I will still prefer specialized squads, but it will be nice not having to worry about it as much.  Also, drop podding squads are going to be nasty now that they can target multiple units.

[SnakeChisler]

Well I guess we can add: BIG change #11 for Deathwatch: Infantry shooting at multiple targets.

 

The GW example is the tip of the iceberg:

 

models in a squad can fire at different targets. So, this means your Tactical Squad can have your boys with bolters deal with that onrushing Hormagaunt horde, while the flamer bathes a nearby Lictor in prometheum fire, and the squad’s krak missile takes an opportunistic pop-shot at that onrushing Carnifex 

 

 

So the most specialized army in the game can take a squad of 5 vets with a lot of various loadouts, have the Frag Cannons wack a high T model, turn the shot guns on the Chaff, and let the IHB rip off a few models in the distance.

 

This rule might actually benefit DW more than most... heck any army in the game. No more wasted shots (I always hated mixing Shotguns with other stuff).

 

I don't know if you can still tank with Termie, but my old squad of Cyclone Missile Termie in a squad of Stalker Bolters looks a little better too. 

 

Now the big question is... do you have to declare all of your targets before shooting any weapons? 

 

I would say yes, one of the things they made quite clear in the recent FAQ's was GMC's & Super Heavies had to declare all their targets not change their minds on the fly

 

It does mean that vehicle shooting gets better a dread can TL Las something in the distance while flaming a nearby target its going to charge, in fact Dreads could well become the true icons of 40k they were meant to be.

 

The DOW 1 trailer of a dread hosing the advancing orks and then crumpling one in his power fist sweet :)

[Moostick]

I think this benefits us the most in making Kill Teams (assuming we keep them) actually be able to take different loadouts.

 

With regular veterans, we never really wasted shots due to our SIA except against vehicles (i.e., melta squads), but that's moot now with armour gone.

 

How do you guys feel this will affect loadouts though? I don't think it'll change much; I don't think it would still make much sense to have a melta gun and IHB in the same unit. Depending on the point changes, 10 man squads might be more viable though.

[Irbis]

Hmm, who could have guessed it will be just simple 6+ to wound, as they want to speed up game, and not SW/Necromunda re-re-rolls to wound?

Well I guess we can add: BIG change #11 for Deathwatch: Infantry shooting at multiple targets.

Actually that's pretty small change, at least for DW. Various guns DW squad carry are so similar in role only very rarely it will make sense to split fire. At least with most sane loadouts.

No, the actual BIG change for DW is new wound table. Frag no longer wounds T4 on 2+ or causes instant death on T3. If we take it now, it will be for the other firing modes, I think. Hell, missile launcher might be pretty big competition for frag as their roles are a lot closer now. Depends on which weapon will get the D6 damage fire mode.

Now the big question is... do you have to declare all of your targets before shooting any weapons?

The answer for this is obviously going to be yes, or at worst, you will fire type by type. Though I don't think that will happen, any amount of testing will show incredible ease of Thatguyism by rolling guns slowly one by one. So, best guess is declare, resolve, next unit.

How do you guys feel this will affect loadouts though? I don't think it'll change much; I don't think it would still make much sense to have a melta gun and IHB in the same unit. Depending on the point changes, 10 man squads might be more viable though.

Yup, DW will probably still cost too much for kitchen sink gear (though, isn't gear free in one game mode? I see potential big abuse loophole lurking there, so DW gear might take huge nerf bat to face). Even 10 man units won't really be viable unless DW is LD 10, battleshock is huge threat to DW models.

I like the point about cyclone terminator in stalker squad, though. Now we can't add ICs to squad (or is DW exception?) it might be default long ranged KT build...

[Silas7]

This is just a guess but I can see how Missile launchers are going to have d3 hits, frag missiles. Really bringing the versatility of the missile launcher to the forefront of it's profile.

 

How DW Frag Cannons are going to compete with the versatility/Str of the ML is only going to show up in it's alternate fire modes and and special rules. This could create a love triangle between FC, ML and IHB in the sense of weapons and the role they fill.

[shortysl]

As Formations are no longer present, the idea of mixed-unit-type Kill Teams is pretty much a moot point isn't it? As it stands right now, Terminators etc can't be put into a Kill-Team because those Kill-Teams are Formations. Our single-model Terminator/Bike/Vanguard squads are still viable, as they have a Battlefield Role of their own, but the Kill-Teams as we know them right now are gone.

 

Or am I missing something?

[SnakeChisler]

Your not but the 1st view we saw basically looked like a demi format with scaling command points for what looked like a double demi

 

Currently a lot of new codex don't fit into that format very easily or scale in the same way

EX Skitarii & Harlequins don't even have a HQ and in the Deathwatch example they have only 1 heavy support then we have those codex that have a main formation that everyone plays such as Thunderwolf & Ravenwing

 

Questions Questions ;)

[Prot]

I think this benefits us the most in making Kill Teams (assuming we keep them) actually be able to take different loadouts.

 

 

 

Well SIA is great, but often with a mixed team I'd want to take (for example) my Cyclone Missile Launcher from my Stalker team, and go after a different squad with the SIA Stalkers.

 

Dreadnoughts are another one that always have mixed weapons.

 

Melta's and Bolters don't mix either. They really still don't.

 

If Fragcannons still have mixed roles, this keeps the squad in a lot better position. Also we don't know for sure how removing casualties work but now I can arrange the guys in a drop pod different as they disembark for multi target attempts. 3 Frag Cannons go for the Tank/Vehicle, and the rest shoot whatever might have been hiding behind it. This often lead to wasted shots for me.

 

I play heavy Drop Pod DW and I certainly found a good deal of unused shots.  Also I think of those times where I've landed a pod and an opponent has one dude wandering around, now I can commit a bolter to him, and turn the rest on a higher priority.

 

The thing about SIA is it will have to change. Poison was by far the most useful round. I just can't logically see a 2+ poison round being carried over, unchanged, into 8th.

 

I always had trouble mixing in shotguns and having them stay relevant. This may make it far easier to sprinkle them in with flamer mode always chewing away at some smaller stuff while the big guns in the squad take care of the of the harder targets.

 

 

 

This is just a guess but I can see how Missile launchers are going to have d3 hits, frag missiles. Really bringing the versatility of the missile launcher to the forefront of it's profile.

 

How DW Frag Cannons are going to compete with the versatility/Str of the ML is only going to show up in it's alternate fire modes and and special rules. This could create a love triangle between FC, ML and IHB in the sense of weapons and the role they fill.

 

I could see that as well. That could potentially become a new standard loadout for at least one squad.

 

If DW still don't have realistic access to Gravcannons I am hoping the FragCannon still has a multifunction role.

[SnakeChisler]

Its been said from what was termed reliable source that you pick out your own casualties, the only reason thematically for not doing this is snipers but a lot of the reasons for finding weapons that bypassed wound allocation was character tanking for a squad or squads tanking for a character with the news that Characters are no longer able to join squads and that the character system has gone completely there is no reason to not let someone remove the models he wants.

 

This does have its flaws though as were allowed to take storm shields on a single guy its something that could be abused in combat

 

On the other hand From a fluff point If the guy with the heavy weapon dies and your squad needs that weapon someone else would just pick it up

 

Librarians now can't join squads does this mean you can load multiple units on a transport? or does he have to walk behind the rhino?

[Moostick]

I think a lot of people are thinking the same thing.

 

So far every leaked rumour has been correct. 

[Prot]

Its been said from what was termed reliable source that you pick out your own casualties, the only reason thematically for not doing this is snipers but a lot of the reasons for finding weapons that bypassed wound allocation was character tanking for a squad or squads tanking for a character with the news that Characters are no longer able to join squads and that the character system has gone completely there is no reason to not let someone remove the models he wants.

 

This does have its flaws though as were allowed to take storm shields on a single guy its something that could be abused in combat

 

On the other hand From a fluff point If the guy with the heavy weapon dies and your squad needs that weapon someone else would just pick it up

 

Librarians now can't join squads does this mean you can load multiple units on a transport? or does he have to walk behind the rhino?

 

^ I was just thinking the same thing after the IC news. I mean if you have an IC for Deathwatch that can't join a squad.... wow that's rough unless he can at least ride with them in a transport.

 

I think of how many times my Watch Captain is holding a Beacon Angelis, and my opponent wants to rip him apart. At least right now he has to go through the squad first, and I can Look Out Sir.

 

Without LoS and having to 'hide' behind a squad in a Drop Pod, this means you have to be super cautious of fast units trying to get the angle on your IC. I know with my Grey Knights, I've had those Forgeworld Tau Riptides do a big jump to avoid Draigo and roast the rest of the squad without the problem of dealing with the 'tank'. There are quite a few examples of this in the game that concern me.

 

I further wonder if said IC can be in the 'middle' of a squad coming out of a pod without actually being 'in' the squad (I don't know if I'm making sense there but it's more a question of coherency I suppose.)

[robofish7591]

I can't see that being an issue, as long as the squad is all in coherency.  I would also expect HQs and characters to have at least five or so wounds.  In Aos characters usually have five or more wounds to make up for the fact that they aren't in a unit.  Between that, generally better armor saves than AoS, and the fact that you can't shoot at a character if there is a unit that is closer, I think that the character changes won't be as big of an issue as some people make them out to be.

[Moostick]

Dedicated Transports are their own class now, but left out of the "must have" in force organizations. Chances are rhinos, DP are now considered "Dedicated Transports [for all]" and are taken as standalone units.

 

It'll probably be either any number of units can hop into a transport as long as they fit, or there's a rule specifically for IC to be able to hop into any transport. Every IC footslogging it will be pretty terrible and counter intuitive.

[SnakeChisler]

Someone on Belloflostsouls has pointed out the new dwarf blimp carries units not unit based on keywords

 

Looking at our codex in that light you could see a corvus carrying what was a kill team now carrying vetrans + terminator + HQ + bike

 

Replacement for stuff like zealot is going to be an area affect

 

The format we saw were 3 of 14 and I'm guessing some are going to be common while some are race specific

 

Also they could go back to troop only scoring though getting that to work in maelstrom is next to impossible. Mmmmm

[leth]

We also might have specific kill team data sheets to make the units we currently can make from formations.

 

IT could be something as simple as a separate warscroll: 

 

Deathwatch Kill team

5x veterans

0-5 of x,y,z

 

Max 10 models in the squad.

 

Also if it follows the rules from AOS then its number of models it can hold rather than being limited by units (Which I like a lot more) No reason 4 marines from seperate units shouldnt be able to ride in the same rhino.

 

Solves the IC and transports problem quite nicely.

 

Another thing is that you have a movement phase before shooting to re-adjust, if you could get to the character then you can get to the character.  It will be interesting to see if they have that be per model or per unit since there is splitfire.  I can see some larger units with lots of board presence having some models that can fire and some that can not.

 

Also, the update to combi weapons is huge for DW, fire both at -1 every turn or fire 1 or the other. Twin linked weapons are just double shots now(FINALLY) 

 

Stalker bolt guns able to target characters, also awesome. 

 

Overall I get the feeling that DW and the kit outs were designed with aspects of 8th in mind.  So many things were meh but now make a lot of sense also two wound terminators!!! and it seems like instant death for double strength is gone as well so our T4 characters might see the light of day....

[Mobius0288]

I don't see why kill teams wouldn't remain... it's a core mechanic within the Deathwatch Codex. it would suck in terms of DTs, but maybe fast attack transports you just fill up until its full (as stated previously). Again, it would solve transports for ICs.

Or perhaps a kill team becomes a troop choice with "formations" being gone. That would be awesome. Hopefully a DW article comes out from the warhammer community.

I WANT DEDICATED TRANSPORTS FOR MY TRANSPORTS! NO LIMIT!

Without transports... I can see the new meta being a couple of troop choices acting as body guards for ICs since they can't be directly targeted until they are the "closest unit" to the shooting unit (unless you have snipers? Still unconfirmed).

Side note, I plugged an idea on the 40k FB page about how to incorporate forgeworld models with 8th edition. I actually got positive feedback about it so fingers crossed we could see something about how they are included.

Cool stuff.

[robofish7591]

I'm really hoping that deathwatch was a "made for the next edition" kind of army.  Which could explain (but not excuse!) why it seemed a little phoned in, since the rules were going to be outdated soon.  

[Mobius0288]

Also I think the twin-linked change is pretty legit. It feels like our Landraider and Blackstar got some power back, though may not be game changing for a our faction - our Blackstar could become an infantry sweeper with decent armor chipping capability. The Lascannon off the dreadnaught would have a little bit more potency (and would feel like less of a tax if the BSSF carried over!).

[Prot]

Big changes for Deathwatch #12:

 

 

Combi-weapons

Another type of weapon that is changing is the combi-weapon. While in the current edition you can only shoot the “specialist” portion of the gun once, in the new Warhammer 40,000 you can either shoot both all the time, but at a -1 to hit modifier, or choose to just shoot one with no modifier. This is a pretty awesome boost in power for a lot of elite units like Chaos Terminators, Sternguard and Meganobz – no longer just one-hit-wonders with those shooting attacks.

 

I always leave these little articles wishing we knew more! :) But this does look good for the Vets as we understand their loadouts today.

[robofish7591]

With the changes to twin linked weapons, hurricane bolters are going to be hilarious.  They should end up being 12 shots at 12 inches, a set of those plus the assault cannons on a black star, or two sets of hurricane bolters and the assault cannons on a land raider crusader is going to chew through hordes like nobody's business.  They could definitely help even the odds against horde armies.  

 

I really like the new combi weapons, the only thing is that I am worried about how they will be priced.  Our already expensive models could get even pricier!

[shortysl]

Also I think the twin-linked change is pretty legit. It feels like our Landraider and Blackstar got some power back, though may not be game changing for a our faction - our Blackstar could become an infantry sweeper with decent armor chipping capability. The Lascannon off the dreadnaught would have a little bit more potency (and would feel like less of a tax if the BSSF carried over!).

Alternatively, the Corvus could pump out up to twenty Strength 6 Skyfire shots in one turn, making it an absolute terror to enemy Flyers.

[Boyadventurer]

Big changes for Deathwatch #12:

Combi-weapons

Another type of weapon that is changing is the combi-weapon. While in the current edition you can only shoot the “specialist” portion of the gun once, in the new Warhammer 40,000 you can either shoot both all the time, but at a -1 to hit modifier, or choose to just shoot one with no modifier. This is a pretty awesome boost in power for a lot of elite units like Chaos Terminators, Sternguard and Meganobz – no longer just one-hit-wonders with those shooting attacks.

I always leave these little articles wishing we knew more! But this does look good for the Vets as we understand their loadouts today.

This one is HUGE!

[Irbis]

But this does look good for the Vets as we understand their loadouts today.

 

I don't know. I don't really like dropping accuracy of DW to IG level, though at least firing both guns is viable® here than someone else, as SIA at least packs some punch unlike regular bolters that do little to help shooting from combi- part. Also, with combi-guns being better than special weapons now they might jump in price straight into 'not really viable' territory. We'll see.

 

Also, is it me or I now find DW FAQ even sadder and more stupid - if that Artemis relic was written with 8th in mind, hence no firing restriction on flamer, nerfing it for a few months for no good reason was really petty and spiteful...