Prot's Take on BIG Changes for Deathwatch in 8th Edition

[Prot]

Also I think the twin-linked change is pretty legit. It feels like our Landraider and Blackstar got some power back, though may not be game changing for a our faction - our Blackstar could become an infantry sweeper with decent armor chipping capability. The Lascannon off the dreadnaught would have a little bit more potency (and would feel like less of a tax if the BSSF carried over!).

Alternatively, the Corvus could pump out up to twenty Strength 6 Skyfire shots in one turn, making it an absolute terror to enemy Flyers.

Yes! I absolutely love the Corvus. We know nothing of flyers yet, but think about the loadouts on that thing! It could go from being a flying lemon to a truly useful, and fearful gunship. Cost is the only variable I think that could make it stinky.

Big changes for Deathwatch #12:

Combi-weapons

Another type of weapon that is changing is the combi-weapon. While in the current edition you can only shoot the “specialist” portion of the gun once, in the new Warhammer 40,000 you can either shoot both all the time, but at a -1 to hit modifier, or choose to just shoot one with no modifier. This is a pretty awesome boost in power for a lot of elite units like Chaos Terminators, Sternguard and Meganobz – no longer just one-hit-wonders with those shooting attacks.

I always leave these little articles wishing we knew more! But this does look good for the Vets as we understand their loadouts today.

This one is HUGE!

Actually if we can keep min squads to 1 model it gets really decent for Termies. 2 Shot cyclones, and Combi's on Termie HQ's look decent. I wonder what on earth that's going to leave the Watchmaster looking like?

I'm really excited about the way this is looking now. I never wanted 'OP' just... some balance. :)

[Boyadventurer]

Agreed. Even if the balance doesn't turn out to be as finely tuned as expected, at least the narrative play looks like it will be AWESOME for DW.

 

The universal split fire is really on point for DW too I feel. Fluff-wise, a kill team totally feels like a bunch of one-man armies working together. In 7th, you either need a pretty homogeneous loadout on gear, of you'll be wasting shots every turn (would the Raptors sniper waste his Stalker rounds on the mob of Boyz that are getting fragged to death, while there's a big warboss that needs to be taken out?). I'd say part of the problem with DW was you get all these cool options and can mix them together, so you see in a lot of 

Between the squad-wide gear customization you get with DW and split fire, that really opens up our options while making it truer to fluff. The combis are just gravy on top. Though I think the combi melta will be a little lacking, there's no SIA that really synergize with what you'd want to hit with melta.

[Moostick]

The datasheet reveal today was big. I have a strange feeling they're going to remove SIA entirely and give Veterans a single benefit to their bolters. 

 

So the big thing today are the power weapons. My initial thoughts on the 3 are as such:

 

Sword: Now the new axe. Good for denying saves and on DW will still wound most things on at least a 5+ or better.

 

Axe: Now the all-arounder. Probably the go-to in many cases along with the sword. Will deny completely, or force a 4+ or higher, saves in most cases. Still respectable and will wound on at least a 5+ on things except the old super heavies. More worth it against enemies with good invulnerable saves than swords IMO.

 

Maul: The new garbage melee weapon IMO. Most units with high T are going to have good saves. Even if you manage to wound with this, the enemy will probably have a saving throw of 3 or 4. Even against mobs, sure more wounds will go through, but with only a -1 AP, this isn't going to deny saves outright on anything except the absolute trash. I would not take this over the other two and will likely swap out the mauls on my Vanguards once everything is released.

 

I'm assuming none of these weapons get any type of special rules now, so no Unwieldy, Concussive, etc. I think it's now a toss up between Power swords and axes (and maybe lances?). I see no benefit to taking a maul ever.

[Prot]

The datasheet reveal today was big. I have a strange feeling they're going to remove SIA entirely and give Veterans a single benefit to their bolters. 

 

 

Very interesting idea. Perhaps we could use Rubric Bolters as an indicator? That would be S4, AP-2.

 

Another thought for SIA could be the 'Poison' round always counts as having higher Strength over the Toughness of the (infantry) target? I have no idea how or if they'll handle it.

 

 

So the big thing today are the power weapons. My initial thoughts on the 3 are as such:

 

Sword: Now the new axe. Good for denying saves and on DW will still wound most things on at least a 5+ or better.

 

Axe: Now the all-arounder. Probably the go-to in many cases along with the sword. Will deny completely, or force a 4+ or higher, saves in most cases. Still respectable and will wound on at least a 5+ on things except the old super heavies. More worth it against enemies with good invulnerable saves than swords IMO.

 

Maul: The new garbage melee weapon IMO. Most units with high T are going to have good saves. Even if you manage to wound with this, the enemy will probably have a saving throw of 3 or 4. Even against mobs, sure more wounds will go through, but with only a -1 AP, this isn't going to deny saves outright on anything except the absolute trash. I would not take this over the other two and will likely swap out the mauls on my Vanguards once everything is released.

 

I'm assuming none of these weapons get any type of special rules now, so no Unwieldy, Concussive, etc. I think it's now a toss up between Power swords and axes (and maybe lances?). I see no benefit to taking a maul ever.

 

I actually like the Axe too.

 

The Maul might be like the Stave? A +2 S, and -1 save with D3 Damage would be decent for transports perhaps? (That's what I end up using staves for half the time anyway. So I assume a Maul could be similar)

 

+EDIT+

 

I had one other realization after I posted this; the DW bikes are one of the 'ninja' units in the codex. If SIA disappears, or is simply ineffective, then the bikes may become far less attractive. The saving grace there might be the ability to load up on Axes. Right now we don't know costs, and we don't know how bikes actually work (can they jink? How far can them move? Loadouts?)

 

That being said, I always configured three bikes at a time: Axe + Maul + Sword. That was my standard and it could deal with a decent variety of stuff. I think without details it does seem if SIA is 'good', then I'd go 2 Axes per 3 man bike squad.

[Moostick]

 

I actually like the Axe too.

 

The Maul might be like the Stave? A +2 S, and -1 save with D3 Damage would be decent for transports perhaps? (That's what I end up using staves for half the time anyway. So I assume a Maul could be similar)

 

 

I think a D3 wounds is specific to all Force Weapons, and not Power weapons. D3 wounds on regular PW would be way too OP.

 

I decided to make a spreadsheet since I am hard at work. This is very rough estimation, and there may be a lot of factors that affect their uses. Take it for what it is from what we know.

 

Axes seem to be indeed the most well-rounded now. Even when it's not the best, it's never a far second in any situation. Sword suffers when T is more than 2x S. Maul suffers from its lack of AP. The maul is either much worse than the other two, or only slightly better.

 

 

 

Edit: Should note that this does not take into account Invulnerable saves. However, I don't believe they will be thrown around as often, and we'd generally only see 4++ or 5++. This makes the Axe even more attractive in most situations as it generally only ever brings things down to 4+ or 5+, so Invuls primarily hurt the sword.

 

Also highly doubt many things will be better than T10.

 

Edit 2: More comprehensive table

 

 

Maul/Staff is definitely the worst. It kind of tricks you into thinking all 3 are balanced as they all have around 0.3 success rate taking everything into account, but really how often are we going to find a High T, Low Save model?

 

[robofish7591]

I am glad that swords will be a somewhat useful choice now, especially since I don't care for how most of the loyalist axes look.  I'm wondering what the xenophase blade is going to do now though, I have a captain with one and a stormshield that is itching to see the table some more!

[Prot]

We don't actually know what Maul's do though do we? They may have secondary effects, also the way the S vs T works now they almost have to be a minimum of S6 otherwise they do look goofy.

[robofish7591]

Well, we have only seen force staves so far.  So its all guesswork now, but if its like 7th then staves and mauls are the same.

[Irbis]

Well, we have only seen force staves so far. So its all guesswork now, but if its like 7th then staves and mauls are the same.

Yeah, I agree. Since Initiative is gone, probably no more effects there.

You know, it's kind of funny. DW box finally has two nice mauls, and of course once we get them, they are massively nerfed. Did DW curse started affecting whole weapon types? :P

BTW, thanks for analysis, Moostick. will need to think it over but sword/axe combo might indeed be the way to go. Thankfully I didn't converted two force axes I had into staves yet as I slowed my DW building in winter slump

Oh, and big thing Prot missed. We know how hand flamers look now. I hoped for S4 d3 hits, but no, it's S3 like before, d6 hits, just 6 inch reach, no AP. Hmm. Honestly, not all that sure they are going to be any worthwhile now, even against IG you're dealing little more than 1.1 wounds on average. Honestly, bolt pistol will probably be better, never mind any other 'fancy' pistols...

[Moostick]

Yes, I assumed that the Maul was the same as the Staff as that's how it is currently in 7th. Force weapons are also currently the same as Power weapons in 7th (except with Force, which is what I think the D3 wounds comes from), and today's reveal showed that none of them get any sort of special rules anymore. The only thing that has not been revealed are power lances.

 

But there could very well be rules they have not revealed yet. This is based purely on the strength and AP modifiers shown today, and how wounding works from Str VS Toughness shown previously.

 

I actually like this though. Axes and swords have always been my preferred weapons as I do not like the look of blunt weapons.

[robofish7591]

Just off the top of my head, I don't think that you can actually have a force lance, which would explain why it hasn't shown up yet.  I would expect lances to show up when the actual power weapon rules surface.

[Irbis]

 

I had one other realization after I posted this; the DW bikes are one of the 'ninja' units in the codex. If SIA disappears, or is simply ineffective, then the bikes may become far less attractive. The saving grace there might be the ability to load up on Axes. Right now we don't know costs, and we don't know how bikes actually work (can they jink? How far can them move? Loadouts?)

 

We know they have TL bolters, which means double fire rate now. Ironically, unless bikes were heavily nerfed, as long as bike costs less than 2 vets it might end up being go to firepower boost displacing vets. Especially seeing native speed and T bonus, plus fact infantry is generally more resilient in 8th.

 

 

 

I actually like this though. Axes and swords have always been my preferred weapons as I do not like the look of blunt weapons.

 

Though, ironically, in real life blunt objects work best against plate, then swords, axes being almost useless against armour. IMO, the axe should have biggest S bonus/lowest AP, maul lowest S/best AP ;)

 

 

 

Just off the top of my head, I don't think that you can actually have a force lance, which would explain why it hasn't shown up yet.  I would expect lances to show up when the actual power weapon rules surface.

 

I though White Scars had them? Or is it 30K only?

[Trevak Dal]

8th edition shooting phase:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/30/new-40k-shooting-phase-apr30gw-homepage-post-4/

First big nerf to DW - pistols? What pistols?

Unless DW get pistols in 8th.

Of course we do. We just don't use it as much when compared to the shotgun, even though our bolt pistols do have special ammo.

That's assuming that Deathwatch wasn't a "forward thinking" codex and most units that have Bolters and bolt pistols will be losing the pistols...

[Moostick]

In the 8th, a Tac squad costs a base 13 pts each and can take a Grav pistol for 7 pts while a multi-melta costs 27(!?!) pts. Quite a huge change in points for options.

 

Yep, I'll just finish up what I started and will be working on some Drop Pods for the month.

[Vel'Cona]

That'd be my biggest protip for 8th:  DON'T BUILD ANYTHING NEW!!!  We don't know a hill of beans about what will be good/bad/tolerable in the next edition and that super fancy all combi-weapon unit I know some of you lot are building could be ridiculously expensive or limited to 3 per unit or something like that.  To avoid future heartbreak, take it easy on acquiring new projects until you have the ENTIRE picture, OK?  :)

 

This goes for you Dreadnought-lovers, too!  :D

[Prot]

That'd be my biggest protip for 8th: DON'T BUILD ANYTHING NEW!!! We don't know a hill of beans about what will be good/bad/tolerable in the next edition and that super fancy all combi-weapon unit I know some of you lot are building could be ridiculously expensive or limited to 3 per unit or something like that. To avoid future heartbreak, take it easy on acquiring new projects until you have the ENTIRE picture, OK? :)

 

This goes for you Dreadnought-lovers, too! :D

Absolutely agree.... except the Dreadnought part! ;)

 

Sorry, but I've been waiting over 15 years of tournament play to use these things again. The good news is I probably have another 3 or so sitting in boxes somewhere.... but then again who doesn't. :)

 

+edit+

I just did an inventory of Landraiders and not including my Chaos, Grey Knights and Ultramarines, I have three landraider chassis that can be built in most configurations.

 

My 'closet of shame' is loving the look of this new edition. Personally I'm just waiting on point costs and what our unit configuration is starting to look like.

[Silas7]

Closet of shame indeed, I wish I had a closet >.>     <.<

[Prot]

Well I like to pretend. The 'imperial truth' is a closet. My wife's truth (AKA Inquisition) is a basement of shame

[Irbis]

That's assuming that Deathwatch wasn't a "forward thinking" codex and most units that have Bolters and bolt pistols will be losing the pistols...

Seeing Mk X marines all have pistols on them, I kind of doubt that.

Who wants to bet that Death Watch, literally only SM army that wouldn't have a problem with incorporating elite marines into their ranks, won't have access to them as the only SM book?

[Moostick]

Based on the revealed statline of the uber marines, I'm actually surprised at how...underwhelming they are.

 

They're essentially Veterans with a rapid fire version of the existing Stalkers and an extra wound. They do look pretty damn cool though.

[Lexicanum]

They seem pretty fair, though we don't have points yet.

 

Is their LD value the same as an 8th edition Tactical marine? If so, Veterans may still have an edge in that department, right?

[Prot]

Based on the revealed statline of the uber marines, I'm actually surprised at how...underwhelming they are.

 

They're essentially Veterans with a rapid fire version of the existing Stalkers and an extra wound. They do look pretty damn cool though.

 

 

I completely agree.... I have to say I am not thoroughly impressed with the Primaris marines, but the thing is they kept the 'old' marines quite usable. 2 wounds is nice, until you get hit with D2 (or more) weapons.

 

BUT Wait for the true snake oil guys... it's coming. It's not the marines I bet. It's the "Cawl Primaris-Gravitron" weapon that will come one per box that will be extremely potent.

 

 

They seem pretty fair, though we don't have points yet.

 

Is their LD value the same as an 8th edition Tactical marine? If so, Veterans may still have an edge in that department, right?

 

Well no... no points BUT the power level puts them about the same as a Rubric.

 

Also hoping we'll be able to use the 'Primaris Dread'.

[Moostick]

I mean it's good they're not overpowered that it makes Veterans pointless, but it's just...underwhelming.

 

One strange thing is the ATSKNF special rule is still around. Now that Morale tests are simply one test at the end of the turn, what can it possibly do? Could it be possible that Space Marines are immune to morale casualties?

[SnakeChisler]

I mean it's good they're not overpowered that it makes Veterans pointless, but it's just...underwhelming.

 

One strange thing is the ATSKNF special rule is still around. Now that Morale tests are simply one test at the end of the turn, what can it possibly do? Could it be possible that Space Marines are immune to morale casualties?

They have lowered the moral stat to 7 on SM if you notice the new Sgt has 8 on here so not sure what the bonus will be

 

The Faction focus on Tau gives a lot of units what looks like hit & run with being able to fire as they fall back again we have a basic rule then instantly is ignored by a group, the leadership for most units looks like its going to be 6 though.

 

ATSKNF could be all sorts at the moment I'm guessing if you fall back you ignore the basic can't shoot rule but if that's the case were going to get into a position where most ignore falling back and not shooting.

 

I suspect you won't be able to get away from certain types of troops that easily though, it doesn't make thematic sense that you'd be able to disengage from some specialised assault troops such as Berserkers or any type of jet pack equipped Assault Marine without taking even further casualties.

 

They promised stuff on Warhammer TV so hopefully that will be soon

[CaptainArtemis]

Only problem I have with these new test tube marines is that their stats seem to be what Veterans stats should be.  Where does that leave the Vets stats and points cost to be ? Will Vets have 2 wounds ? What is the need to still field Vets in a space marine army if these guys are the inbetween of a Tactical marine and Terminator ?  So many questions that im just to impatient to wait to be answered 

 

I would hate it if these guys are better out the gate than Veterans that have seen years of combat and the only separation is the ammo they use.  

 

Also look out for the Devastator version with Frag Cannons and Infernus Heavy Bolters hahah 

 

Either way i'm excited for 8th.