Prot's Take on BIG Changes for Deathwatch in 8th Edition

[Irbis]

 

ATSKNF could be all sorts at the moment I'm guessing if you fall back you ignore the basic can't shoot rule but if that's the case were going to get into a position where most ignore falling back and not shooting.

 

Based on AoS, most likely it will be 'roll 2 morale dice, discard one' deal.

[Valerian]

 

 

Well no... no points BUT the power level puts them about the same as a Rubric.

 

 

 

Rubrics were base '8' Power Level, and these Intercessors are only '6'.  That actually puts them a lot closer to a regular Tactical squad (5) than Rubrics, which seems right to me, given all the nice features the Rubrics were shown to have.

 

This first new Primaris unit was a bit overwhelming, but considering the Power Level, they shouldn't actually be too expensive when we finally get to see the real "Matched play" points cost.

 

V

[Valerian]

 

 

One strange thing is the ATSKNF special rule is still around. Now that Morale tests are simply one test at the end of the turn, what can it possibly do? Could it be possible that Space Marines are immune to morale casualties?

 

There are a lot of examples of Morale/Battleshock manipulation in AoS.  ATSKNF could halve Battleshock casualties, it could allow you to roll two dice and take the lowest as Irbis suggested.  Basically anything you can dream up to reduce the effects of that phase are possibilities.  

 

V

[Prot]

I think again it's just so hard to speculate. Deathwatch rely on special weapons. Their base cost has always been grossly over valued.

So let's say for argument a kill team is very similar in cost to the Primaris guys. That is okay if the stats are okay but I actually think the bolt rifle is the bigger deal here. So if the Frag Cannon is 50 points, that's going to be a tough pill to swallow.

The Primaris marine opens up a lot of questions. Personally I love the look of the current deathwatch, but are they small compared to Primaris? Are you just better off taking an army of Primaris rather than Deathwatch? This puts us back in seventh mode where Sternguard were a better option.

I am glad for marines but I honestly can't make heads or tails of what this means for Deathwatch.

[LordCommanderSamirus]

That is okay if the stats are okay but I actually think the bolt rifle is the bigger deal here. So if the Frag Cannon is 50 points, that's going to be a tough pill to swallow.

 

 

I imagine as long as there is still Special Issue Ammunition Kraken rounds will look identical to the Bolt Rifle profile (Range 30" S4 AP-1).

[Prot]

That's a good start.

 

The Stalker Bolter in particular could be handy if it allows you to shoot at characters.

 

I suggested maybe poison would just always count as being +1 S over target toughness...infantry only though (can't have vehicles going down to poison!)

 

I think the dirt is in the details of the weapons. They could have us mimic Primaris for stats but our loadouts make us unique. If they're priced too high that will be the back breaker.

 

To me (at least) it makes total sense for a Deathwatch Vet to have the Primaris geneseed (or have the potential for accessing it) simply because of how we form our forces. That being said I can't see GW just doing it with our current line up. They want us to buy those models, even though come to think of it the actual DW figs are bigger than Astartes, and have such a great look to them. I'd hate to 'break' that.

[SnakeChisler]

Good point about poison

 

Fluff wise the poison 2+ was developed for the Tyranid wars I can remember the original Sterns were Ultra Tyranid Hunters back in 4th with some really nice metal models.

 

Hopefully they they will keyword it rather than replace it otherwise Marine based lists will start to become generic.

[Prot]

Well here we go.... reserves. One of my biggest beefs with the Deathwatch BSSF is the lack of reserve manipulation. I'd like to give GW credit and think this was an intentional design 'flaw' at the time of the codex, but I doubt it since codexes don't exist in 8th.

 

The good news is there appears to be no random element. Which I am very happy about because I always hated the prospect of paying 200+ points for a squad only to watch it come in when the game is essentially over. That and the inability to inherently manipulate reserves... it all just seemed so silly to me... the random element never made any sense to me.

 

So I don't know how to take today's article overall because it concentrates on a very unique unit from the Nid codex, not to mention the unique mechanism of burrowing. How much can we take from this example?

 

If we assume -all- of it is true for Deathwatch AND we keep some assemblance of the BSSF in some form, then this is very, very good. This removes one of the top frustrations I had with the BSSF personally (before the "FAQ").

 

This means you're not need the 'pod' for safe 'scatters'. This means you pick which squad comes in where. And this means you may also get to assault from reserves (keep in mind that 9" placement rule). Again this is all under the assumption a typical deep strike is super similar to the Nid example.

 

The bad news to all of this is in "match format" you have to deploy at least half of your army to start the game. (However again a "BSSF" mechanism may supersede this rule.)

 

I'm honestly a little frustrated by this article because of the extreme lack of detail. Especially now that we know the actual reserve rules are now unit specific and not universal. For all intents and purposes the Nid example -could- be completely irrelevant.

[Valerian]

Well here we go.... reserves. One of my biggest beefs with the Deathwatch BSSF is the lack of reserve manipulation. I'd like to give GW credit and think this was an intentional design 'flaw' at the time of the codex, but I doubt it since codexes don't exist in 8th.

 

 

Codexes will exist in 8th - they'll just come later.  So, five consolidated books at launch, to be followed by faction codexes as time permits.  

[Vel'Cona]

I'm honestly a little frustrated by this article because of the extreme lack of detail.

 

This is one of the chief reasons I'm currently getting fed-up with the trickle of information.  The edition is clearly done, it's time to move on this thing.  As is, they're not helping the hype anymore by creating "reveal fatigue".

[Prot]

I'm honestly a little frustrated by this article because of the extreme lack of detail.

This is one of the chief reasons I'm currently getting fed-up with the trickle of information. The edition is clearly done, it's time to move on this thing. As is, they're not helping the hype anymore by creating "reveal fatigue".

Exactly. I'm just doing this to reflect info in our forum. Is it helpful to know 10% of how reserves work? I don't know. I too am at a point where I'd rather them release real info.... or just hold on to it. The merry go round of some reactions is far less entertaining.

+EDIT+

Just found some more tidbits on the facebook page:

Warhammer 40,000 Have a look at the Trygon; it's rules simply say "end of any of your movement phases". Now, that rule is specifically for the Trygon; other units may require a roll, but it will be noted on their datasheet if it is.

Q: So do the competitive rules override the rule for this model in particular? Competitive rules say all reserves by turn three or lost...the above rule say any turn.

Warhammer 40,000 Yeah, you can't keep your army in space underground in matched play - no sneaking on the last turn to grab objectives, you'll have to be on the board for at least half the game.

[robofish7591]

Hmm those quotes to me make it seem like regular deepstrike could be random, while drop pods show up more reliable... interesting.

[Irbis]

Hmm those quotes to me make it seem like regular deepstrike could be random, while drop pods show up more reliable... interesting.

If it is random, they better arrive on 3rd turn automatically or that 'automatically destroyed' rule will really suck.

This means you're not need the 'pod' for safe 'scatters'. This means you pick which squad comes in where. And this means you may also get to assault from reserves (keep in mind that 9" placement rule).

9 inch is universal for AoS, so will probably be here too. So, seeing flamers we saw so far had 8 inch range, unless frag/infernus have longer range, bye bye alpha strike

Then there is the fact that you can charge from deep strike, but only like 25% of succeeding and again, it does little for DW as most of DW units have rapid fire/suck at melee...

[robofish7591]

I totally agree, especially with the way my reserve rolls like to fail until they automatically come on.  Its all just speculation since GW doesn't want to just give us the rules already.  Perhaps drop pods will let you deepstrike closer than 9 inches to enemies.  That way you could get your flamers in range?  The frag cannon and heavy flamer could also possibly have longer ranges too. 

[Moostick]

I feel they have to give Drop Pod something like that or they're going to be pretty badly nerfed in the 8th. Maybe it'll be something like the Drop Pod has to drop >9" away, but then you disembark 3" closer to >6" away. 

 

With the reveal that vehicles can charge, transports are pretty nifty since they can eat overwatch shots. It's also been rumoured that all transports are assault vehicles now. 

 

If they don't change Lias Issodon's rules for the 8th, then he is going to be a monster. 

 

Edit: Nevermind. Today's Q&A smashed that. Some slight regrets in buying some drop pods before the announcement dropped, so hopefully they get something.

[Prot]

Drop Pods seem to have their own special rules though. They seemed to stop short of anything concrete when that question was asked of them.

 

I just keep thinking about the effect of Primaris on Deathwatch and it feels pretty minimal. I mean the Primaris seems limited in weapon load out, and is more expensive to use. Our special weapons are what make the Deathwatch tick.

[Vel'Cona]

Yup, SIA, Frag Cannons, that sort of thing. We have the toys to make the noise, as it were.

That being said, if combi-weapons can fire simultaneously, dare we hope the Infernus HB will be able to do the same???

[Prot]

Yup, SIA, Frag Cannons, that sort of thing. We have the toys to make the noise, as it were.

That being said, if combi-weapons can fire simultaneously, dare we hope the Infernus HB will be able to do the same???

haha... that would be incredible... (probably 60 points.... But incredible!) :)

[Moostick]

I believe the assurance that the current SM line will remain is just corporate speak.

 

They claim that they won't be replaced, but they've also already said that the Primaris will be getting specialized units in the future, which will probably be similar to Assault and Devastator squads. 

 

It makes no sense to have two separate SM lines, but they're just going to phase out the current model line very slowly. This is, unfortunately, a smart tactic to maximize sales. I kind of wish they'd just straight up replace the models and give them both the same rules, but I guess they need to clear out their existing stock first. This will primarily hurt WYSIWYG enthusiasts in the end.

[leth]

Honestly I think they will be keeping both lines, the most expensive part of making regular marines is done, they pretty much have all the kits they would ever need.  Anything else is stepping on the toes of another unit.  So instead they can create a new line that has a different function and is distinct enough from the regular marines that they can integrate into the current armies or work on their own.  It provides a way to add new models into the range without overly bloating the generic marine line.  Also this way they can help bring balance in equipment between the different factions.

 

Why would certain ones not have access to grav? Flamers, etc.  Why can blood angels have heavy flamers but salamanders cant? I hope that they will standardize the regular marine profile and equipment and then provide chapter specific options from there. 

 

I want ONE sheet for a tactical marine, ONE sheet for a devastator, etc.  When you get into the faction specific units like blood claws and Deathwing terminators maybe have a different sheet.

 

Also without seeing points and additional options we dont know what role these guys will fill.  A HUGE change in this edition is the introduction of multiwound weapons instead of 1 or all.   As a result having two wounds is a trade off and it will be interesting to see how that point things accordingly. 

 

In regards to deathwatch I just hope they do away with the "If its not on the sprue its not an option" Will also be interesting to see what they do with bolter/shotgun ammo.  I hope they differentiate between them enough that you fire something other than poisoned rounds or flamer rounds. It will be interesting to see what they do and how the math works out with the new S/T wounding charts.

 

I dont see them getting rid of the profiles as that is an iconic part of the unit.  I expect that they will just rejigger the options and most importantly drop the points a bit. Probably will be seperate from a combi weapon and will say "the bolter portion may fire with one of the following profiles..."

 

Honestly I am just glad that instead of the extremes that they have had for the last few editions they are bringing some granularity back.  A marine that moves is no better than a guardsman? Yeah, no dice.  They have made it so movement is something you can do now, really opens up the options for unit equipment.  I am super excited. 

[bluntpencil]

New reveal on chainsword rules is good for Deathwatch. +1 A on the base guys.

[Vel'Cona]

New reveal on chainsword rules is good for Deathwatch. +1 A on the base guys.

Holy Terra, is this actual future-proofing???

[Silas7]

New reveal on chainsword rules is good for Deathwatch. +1 A on the base guys.

Holy Terra, is this actual future-proofing???

Unless CCW = chainsword, i'm not sure what you mean.

[Kargrym]

New reveal on chainsword rules is good for Deathwatch. +1 A on the base guys.

Holy Terra, is this actual future-proofing???

Unless CCW = chainsword, i'm not sure what you mean.

“A model may replace his boltgun, bolt pistol and/or Melee weapon with one of the following:

Chainsword free”

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Deathwatch Enhanced Edition.” v1.1. Games Workshop, 2016.

[Irbis]

Unless CCW = chainsword, i'm not sure what you mean.

Yeah. And bolt pistol with SIA would still be much better than even 'new' chainsword.

As of right now, DW very much looks like 'worst of both worlds' kind of deal, no pistols, no chainswords (and given they are not on sprue, wouldn't hold my breath waiting for one), hell, to make it even funnier, DW captain kit that comes with only chain/power sword options in plastic has only generic CCW in book too. Kelly and Cruddace never fail to make their already garbage writing worse