HH 45: Tallarn

[Izlude]

Yeah not having Black Oculus doesn't make sense, plus it was a great short that helps to set things up (aside from the fact French wrote it).

 

Without giving spoilers, in Ironclad, what is up with the whole Golden Armada thing? It seemed sort of random and short but can't help to think it was suppose to be more profound. Also that leader has all these different space marines under her (even UMs) but was described sort of like a space pirate? 

[DarkChaplain]

I was really hoping for some big role for the Rogue Trader stuff. Then nothing ever came off it beyond what we're immediately told. One of the big disappointments with Ironclad for me. It had such strokes of genius and the overall framing was fantastic, but it needed to be bigger and allow for bigger roles for its cool elements to unfold.

[LaurieJGoulding]

We don't repeat stories within the numbered series. 'Black Oculus' was deliberately put into a previous anthology, because it originally featured in one of the non-numbered event-exclusive books.

 

John French requested this. BL is not evil, or stupid, or whatever else.

 

'The Eagle's Talon' and 'Iron Corpses' are set DURING the events of Tallarn (and they feature in the timeline from the 'Tallarn: Executioner' limited edition) but they are not really linked to the core events of this collection. They are two standalone stories that tie together. Also, putting in ONE story by another author would change the point of the 'Tallarn' book completely. It's John's core Tallarn arc.

 

(For anyone who was paying attention, it's quite obvious that 'The Eagle's Talon' is actually the prelude to 'Praetorian of Dorn', not 'Tallarn'...)

[JH79]

We don't repeat stories within the numbered series. 'Black Oculus' was deliberately put into a previous anthology, because it originally featured in one of the non-numbered event-exclusive books.

 

John French requested this. BL is not evil, or stupid, or whatever else.

 

'The Eagle's Talon' and 'Iron Corpses' are set DURING the events of Tallarn (and they feature in the timeline from the 'Tallarn: Executioner' limited edition) but they are not really linked to the core events of this collection. They are two standalone stories that tie together. Also, putting in ONE story by another author would change the point of the 'Tallarn' book completely. It's John's core Tallarn arc.

 

(For anyone who was paying attention, it's quite obvious that 'The Eagle's Talon' is actually the prelude to 'Praetorian of Dorn', not 'Tallarn'...)

 

Interesting insight Laurie, thank you for sharing! For what it's worth I wasn't implying that BL is stupid or evil or (insert additional adjectives as necessary here), I just found it odd that the ebook collection had everything but the Tallarn HH Numbered edition did not... at least we know why now though! As a publisher is it easier including multiple authors in a digital only collection as opposed to a printed one?

 

As for Tallarn’s timeline I really am going to have to brush up on my Heresy detail as I always put The Eagel's Talon as the tipping point at which "victory" was achieved, however if this actually takes place during Executioner... well I'm going to have to re-order my iTunes Tallarn album / playlists to match and take a big chomp of humble pie… then re-listen to the whole bloody lot!

 

I never picked up on the connective mindset challenges between Great Crusade & Heresy era Space Marine from The Eagels Talon to those in Praetorian of Dorn before though, i guess with the releases being as far apart as they were it really wasn't that obvious to me... good shout though and yet again something else to watch out for!

[HeritorA]

I was really hoping for some big role for the Rogue Trader stuff. Then nothing ever came off it beyond what we're immediately told. One of the big disappointments with Ironclad for me. It had such strokes of genius and the overall framing was fantastic, but it needed to be bigger and allow for bigger roles for its cool elements to unfold.

Indeed.

 

'(For anyone who was paying attention, it's quite obvious that 'The Eagle's Talon' is actually the prelude to 'Praetorian of Dorn', not 'Tallarn'...)' - right....

[Mellow]

Oh look. Two Novels I have not read printed in one handy Novel for me. I am overjoyed and will initiate the ritual Novel touching sessions.

 

By the way I'm sure I read the same story in Legacies of betrayal and Shattered Legions.

 

But I could be wrong.

[Izlude]

 

I was really hoping for some big role for the Rogue Trader stuff. Then nothing ever came off it beyond what we're immediately told. One of the big disappointments with Ironclad for me. It had such strokes of genius and the overall framing was fantastic, but it needed to be bigger and allow for bigger roles for its cool elements to unfold.

Indeed.

 

'(For anyone who was paying attention, it's quite obvious that 'The Eagle's Talon' is actually the prelude to 'Praetorian of Dorn', not 'Tallarn'...)' - right....

 

Hmm...I recently read The Eagle's Talon (great short by the way) with the IF. I would love to know how this is a prelude to PoD, it seems this is all Tallern related. As they say, "illuminate" me :@)

Edited May 9, 2017 by Izlude

[Tymell]

Oh look. Two Novels I have not read printed in one handy Novel for me. I am overjoyed and will initiate the ritual Novel touching sessions.

 

By the way I'm sure I read the same story in Legacies of betrayal and Shattered Legions.

 

But I could be wrong.

 

According to the contents lists, there should be no shared stories. Shattered Legions is The Seventh Serpent + the Meduson stories, all of which came out after Legacies of Betrayal anyway I believe.

 

Maybe you're thinking of Riven and The Keys of Hel, which follow directly on from one another? Or Strike and Fade, then Unforged and Unspoken, same thing.

[HeritorA]

 

 

I was really hoping for some big role for the Rogue Trader stuff. Then nothing ever came off it beyond what we're immediately told. One of the big disappointments with Ironclad for me. It had such strokes of genius and the overall framing was fantastic, but it needed to be bigger and allow for bigger roles for its cool elements to unfold.

Indeed.

 

'(For anyone who was paying attention, it's quite obvious that 'The Eagle's Talon' is actually the prelude to 'Praetorian of Dorn', not 'Tallarn'...)' - right....

 

Hmm...I recently read The Eagle's Talon (great short by the way) with the IF. I would love to know how this is a prelude to PoD, it seems this is all Tallern related. As they say, "illuminate" me :@)

 

Same question to Laurie.

[LaurieJGoulding]

Are you actually joking, Andrey?

 

The consequences of this one incident are difficult to judge. Would events have unfolded differently if these few scraps of valour and foolishness had taken a different shape?

Perhaps.

For our purposes, it is enough to know that it happened. Will this split in character repeat within the Imperial Fists? Can advantage be taken from it? The questions remain open, but one thing can be certain – for this intelligence to be useful to our Legion it must remain unknown.

I tender my advice to you, my lord father, that once you have reviewed this record you consign it to oblivion.

 

That's the Alpha Legion. This guy is reporting to Alpharius. He has literally just said "Hey, the Imperial Fists might be worth looking at again, because we've maybe misjudged them before now."

Edited May 11, 2017 by LaurieJGoulding

[LaurieJGoulding]

By the way I'm sure I read the same story in Legacies of betrayal and Shattered Legions.

 

But I could be wrong.

 

You are wrong.

Edited May 11, 2017 by LaurieJGoulding

[LaurieJGoulding]

 

 

Interesting insight Laurie, thank you for sharing! For what it's worth I wasn't implying that BL is stupid or evil or (insert additional adjectives as necessary here), I just found it odd that the ebook collection had everything but the Tallarn HH Numbered edition did not... at least we know why now though! As a publisher is it easier including multiple authors in a digital only collection as opposed to a printed one?

 

As for Tallarn’s timeline I really am going to have to brush up on my Heresy detail as I always put The Eagel's Talon as the tipping point at which "victory" was achieved, however if this actually takes place during Executioner... well I'm going to have to re-order my iTunes Tallarn album / playlists to match and take a big chomp of humble pie… then re-listen to the whole bloody lot!

 

I never picked up on the connective mindset challenges between Great Crusade & Heresy era Space Marine from The Eagels Talon to those in Praetorian of Dorn before though, i guess with the releases being as far apart as they were it really wasn't that obvious to me... good shout though and yet again something else to watch out for!

 

Oh the timeline given in the limited edition covers the entire war on Tallarn, not just the events of 'Executioner'. It's fully date-stamped, so it's a good road map for better understanding of the whole thing - John, Alan Bligh and I planned all this out in advance... before the novella was written, actually. Same as with the Siege of Terra, the idea being that it will pay off by making the whole thing easier to manage later. Fingers crossed!

 

The fall of the Eagle's Talon transporter doesn't really bring any kind of victory, though. It simply denies the traitors a win in a local (unnamed) battle on the surface which looked like it was going to go their way, and might have enabled them to start landing more armour onto the surface. In fact, in the direct follow-on 'Iron Corpses', it says that this resulted in HUGE loss of life on both sides (and among the non-combatant civilian survivors below ground, too?) just as Gammus and Theophon feared.

 

It's bleak, because it provides nothing like victory for the loyalists in spite of the great sacrifice.

 

In 'Witness', it is also heavily implied that not even the Imperial commanders really knew why they "won" Tallarn. Certainly by that point there was virtually nothing left of the world to claim as a prize, but for all intents and purposes the Iron Warriors simply stopped contesting it. Which, as we now know, was because Horus recalled Perturabo.

 

Linking back to Andrey's questions, the Alpha Legion thought they had Tallarn all sorted before the IV Legion showed up and bombed the place. Alpharius and his lads had been priming the local government for years, presumably for some kind of uprising, and Perturabo upset those plans massively.

Edited May 11, 2017 by LaurieJGoulding

[HeritorA]

Are you actually joking, Andrey?

 

The consequences of this one incident are difficult to judge. Would events have unfolded differently if these few scraps of valour and foolishness had taken a different shape?

Perhaps.

For our purposes, it is enough to know that it happened. Will this split in character repeat within the Imperial Fists? Can advantage be taken from it? The questions remain open, but one thing can be certain – for this intelligence to be useful to our Legion it must remain unknown.

I tender my advice to you, my lord father, that once you have reviewed this record you consign it to oblivion.

 

That's the Alpha Legion. This guy is reporting to Alpharius. He has literally just said "Hey, the Imperial Fists might be worth looking at again, because we've maybe misjudged them before now."

Good point - but that doesn't mean that this particular case was what actually moved all the events of PoD.

FW hh narattor is lying (probably), fluff books written by Imperium or AL (who knows) - so they are lying to. The only truthful source by that point are novels

 

'Linking back to Andrey's questions, the Alpha Legion thought they had Tallarn all sorted before the IV Legion showed up and bombed the place. Alpharius and his lads had been priming the local government for years, presumably for some kind of uprising, and Perturabo upset those plans massively.'

 

- as mentioned in 'Executioner', right. What they didn't know is why actually IW arrived at all

[LaurieJGoulding]

Oh, it definitely didn't CAUSE the events of PoD. It's just a prelude. It clearly comes first, and might have had some behind-the-scenes shift in what later happened... were the events of the novel what the AL always planned, or did they change because of TET? We won't ever know for sure.

 

Not everything is "THE PIVOTAL EVENT WHERE THIS THING WAS DECIDED". Often, the best stories are the ones that you only find out later as part of the overall saga.

 

Like 'Hunter's Moon', for example. That tale means nothing to the fishermen on Pelago, but when you know the context of the watch-packs it becomes loaded with additional meaning. In fact, even knowing that there IS in fact a war in the heavens between the star-giants, that changes the importance of the telling. It's all context, like real life.

Edited May 11, 2017 by LaurieJGoulding

[Tymell]

Like 'Hunter's Moon', for example. That tale means nothing to the fishermen on Pelago, but when you know the context of the watch-packs it becomes loaded with additional meaning. In fact, even knowing that there IS in fact a war in the heavens between the star-giants, that changes the importance of the telling. It's all context, like real life.

 

I'm still holding out hope for more stories focused on this viewpoint: we usually see things from the POV of the Astartes, or at least humans of importance around them. Makes sense, but I'd love to see more from the regular joe's side of things. What do they make of all of this? Some won't even know about this conflict. Those that do aren't going to be privy to the big picture like high-ups in the Legions are, they'll be so subject to misinformation, paranoia and panic. Some wanting to side one way or the other not for ideological reasons, but practical ones, or even just based on lies. I love the aspect of this as a true civil war, tearing apart the whole Imperium, from the Primarchs right down to the ordinary citizens turning on one another out of desperation and uncertainty.

 

Liar's Due gave us some of that, much appreciated.

[JH79]

 

Oh the timeline given in the limited edition covers the entire war on Tallarn, not just the events of 'Executioner'. It's fully date-stamped, so it's a good road map for better understanding of the whole thing - John, Alan Bligh and I planned all this out in advance... before the novella was written, actually. Same as with the Siege of Terra, the idea being that it will pay off by making the whole thing easier to manage later. Fingers crossed!

The fall of the Eagle's Talon transporter doesn't really bring any kind of victory, though. It simply denies the traitors a win in a local (unnamed) battle on the surface which looked like it was going to go their way, and might have enabled them to start landing more armour onto the surface. In fact, in the direct follow-on 'Iron Corpses', it says that this resulted in HUGE loss of life on both sides (and among the non-combatant civilian survivors below ground, too?) just as Gammus and Theophon feared.

 

It's bleak, because it provides nothing like victory for the loyalists in spite of the great sacrifice.

 

In 'Witness', it is also heavily implied that not even the Imperial commanders really knew why they "won" Tallarn. Certainly by that point there was virtually nothing left of the world to claim as a prize, but for all intents and purposes the Iron Warriors simply stopped contesting it. Which, as we now know, was because Horus recalled Perturabo.

 

Linking back to Andrey's questions, the Alpha Legion thought they had Tallarn all sorted before the IV Legion showed up and bombed the place. Alpharius and his lads had been priming the local government for years, presumably for some kind of uprising, and Perturabo upset those plans massively.

 

Thanks for coming back to me on this Laurie... consider my mind blown! I didn't know Executioner ran the whole (or near as we can tell) time line of the war. That book was crazy dark in places though, great stuff!

 

I have to admit I love sorting and re-re-sorting my Heresy iTunes collection, think High Fideliety but with audiobooks instead of music lol. It's quite the complicated relationship we have, but I am beyond proud of it's malicious level of intricate detail... each book even has properly formatted chapter names to match the paper back releases... hell I even took the time to re-touch each of the album covers from those early releases where "MP3" was slam dunked right next to the title box... but this, I can happily say that i have no idea how to organise my Tallarn section now lol! 

 

I think because as you point out above in other comments, people (myself included) do see things very linear, and i usually prefer it that way... here's the beginning, middle and end, wrapped up with a bow for good measure! But with Tallarn it's like the campaign was reported back to us, the reader (or listener) via several different news reporters, each focusing on what's happening at that one specific time leaving you to piece together what you can.

 

I'm having fun going back over this material again with a slightly different view on everything. Hopefully we get some more Perturabo insight post Tallarn later down the line too... the only traitor Primarch (& Legion) I like! 

[TheAlephNull]

Are you actually joking, Andrey?

 

The consequences of this one incident are difficult to judge. Would events have unfolded differently if these few scraps of valour and foolishness had taken a different shape?

Perhaps.

For our purposes, it is enough to know that it happened. Will this split in character repeat within the Imperial Fists? Can advantage be taken from it? The questions remain open, but one thing can be certain – for this intelligence to be useful to our Legion it must remain unknown.

I tender my advice to you, my lord father, that once you have reviewed this record you consign it to oblivion.

 

That's the Alpha Legion. This guy is reporting to Alpharius. He has literally just said "Hey, the Imperial Fists might be worth looking at again, because we've maybe misjudged them before now."

Exactly, and that's why Alpharius mind swapped with Silonius. Silonius almost got Dorn and Omegon Deadpool'ed the readers into thinking he felt weird.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

The ss engage imperial in desperate battle to capture Kiev.

[Olis]

Um, what?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Was making a derogatory remark about how it's similar to the largest armor engagement of ww2.

 

Iron warriors representing the German panzer divisions whilst imperial use their "t34s" to get the advantage.

 

Crap joke. Please continue.

[HeritorA]

Oh, it definitely didn't CAUSE the events of PoD. It's just a prelude. It clearly comes first, and might have had some behind-the-scenes shift in what later happened... were the events of the novel what the AL always planned, or did they change because of TET? We won't ever know for sure.

 

Not everything is "THE PIVOTAL EVENT WHERE THIS THING WAS DECIDED". Often, the best stories are the ones that you only find out later as part of the overall saga.

 

Like 'Hunter's Moon', for example. That tale means nothing to the fishermen on Pelago, but when you know the context of the watch-packs it becomes loaded with additional meaning. In fact, even knowing that there IS in fact a war in the heavens between the star-giants, that changes the importance of the telling. It's all context, like real life.

Laurie I hope the point of watch-packs is already told and would be left for good. SW watch packs were one of those points that were on the worse sides of HH awesomeness.

Hope they would be left for good.

 

What we expect as I mention that before a lot of times at this stage - is to actually move into the war in Solar system. What PoD has started - but follow-ups has rolled back again. This inconsistencies are too outdated and boring now and should have been left alone a long time ago - like 10 numbered titles ago.

 

Was making a derogatory remark about how it's similar to the largest armor engagement of ww2.

 

Iron warriors representing the German panzer divisions whilst imperial use their "t34s" to get the advantage.

 

Crap joke. Please continue.

Not even close - you do understand that the biggest tank engagements were at the beginning of the war against USSR? While German Panzer T-2/3 divisions were butchering whole tank divisions of old KV1 and more heavy but cumbersome K-1/3A in Ukraine during the 1941- and 1942.

That's actually what happened in general in 'Tallarn: Executioner'.

 

But that's only in general - cause they does not have any relatively closed as Titans at that time and space ships in lower/higher orbit

[R_F_D]

 

Oh, it definitely didn't CAUSE the events of PoD. It's just a prelude. It clearly comes first, and might have had some behind-the-scenes shift in what later happened... were the events of the novel what the AL always planned, or did they change because of TET? We won't ever know for sure.

 

Not everything is "THE PIVOTAL EVENT WHERE THIS THING WAS DECIDED". Often, the best stories are the ones that you only find out later as part of the overall saga.

 

Like 'Hunter's Moon', for example. That tale means nothing to the fishermen on Pelago, but when you know the context of the watch-packs it becomes loaded with additional meaning. In fact, even knowing that there IS in fact a war in the heavens between the star-giants, that changes the importance of the telling. It's all context, like real life.

Laurie I hope the point of watch-packs is already told and would be left for good. SW watch packs were one of those points that were on the worse sides of HH awesomeness.

Hope they would be left for good.

 

What we expect as I mention that before a lot of times at this stage - is to actually move into the war in Solar system. What PoD has started - but follow-ups has rolled back again. This inconsistencies are too outdated and boring now and should have been left alone a long time ago - like 10 numbered titles ago.

 

 

Woah now, you don't speak for all of us here!

 

I thought the packs were a good device at instilling the sense of uncertainty, the sense that literally no-one knew which Primarchs could be trusted.  Have we heard anything more from the pack in Howl of the Hearthworld?  Granted I haven't read PoD yet. 

Also, who watched Russ?

[HeritorA]

'I thought the packs were a good device at instilling the sense of uncertainty, the sense that literally no-one knew which Primarchs could be trusted.  Have we heard anything more from the pack in Howl of the Hearthworld?  Granted I haven't read PoD yet.'

- right, by showing 'that kind of trust' to loyal ones. In case of some of them after that 'trust' I would have went to Horus camp just out of spite.

There is no 'Howl of the Hearthworld' pack in PoD R_F_D

 

 

'Also, who watched Russ?' - how about nobody? And that's one the biggest hypocrisies of Russ. Of which he had a long list to work upon.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Who watched Russ?

 

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i65/kieran_m/HH%20Vlka%20Fenryka/802EE712-5560-4354-B1C3-20FAFA7AF3CB_zpsxzwkai1w.jpg

 

The Most Loyal Son indeed

[Olis]

Who watched Russ?

 

[snip]

 

The Most Loyal Son indeed

 

Pah. If you want the most loyal son, speak to Dorn. :P