HH 45: Tallarn

[Mellow]

Or Guilliman.

[HeritorA]

Or Guilliman.

Or Sanguinius.

Russ simply a barbarian with the unmeasured level of hypocrisy and egoism. Simple as that.

And as WLK mentioned - he doesn't even admitted the fact that he should be watched.

It is so 'obvious' to him that he is without flaws

[DarkChaplain]

Heritor, you keep harping on Russ when it comes to the Watch Packs. What you are very conveniently forgetting is that Russ didn't have the idea. Malcador gave the orders.

 

Russ approved of them, but it is the Regent of Terra that made this happen. And obviously he trusts Russ's loyalty enough. Is it really hypocrisy and arrogance when the Wolf King wasn't even the driving force behind the whole deal?

Russ endorsed it, and picked his sons for the task. But it all happened because the Sigillite willed it.

[Mellow]

Such a strange perpetual he was. Lived forever but was really crinkly. Like ... crinkle cut crisps level crinkly!

[Dagoth Ur]

Who watched Russ?

 

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i65/kieran_m/HH%20Vlka%20Fenryka/802EE712-5560-4354-B1C3-20FAFA7AF3CB_zpsxzwkai1w.jpg

 

The Most Loyal Son indeed

Until Russ martyrs himself for his father that title still belongs to good ol' Sanguinius, thank you very much. ;)

[DarkChaplain]

Pretty far off topic now, but hey.

 

I'd argue that Sanguinius wasn't the most loyal. Neither was Guilliman.

 

Guilliman, for one, was a rationalist, and he was quick to write off the Emperor as dead and gone without even daring to brave the Ruinstorm to find out more. He hunkered down instead of racing for Terra. In fact, I'd argue that him building up Imperium Secundus deprived Terra and the wider Imperium of much-needed strength. The Retribution Fleet of the Imperial FIsts, for example, was supposed to be at the palace already. The Dark Angels could've done better than trying to hunt down Curze in Ultramar. Sanguinius and his sons were needed as symbols not just on Macragge and Guilliman's micro-Imperium, but on the walls.

Russ would never have sat still. Yes, this also meant that he missed the Siege because he wouldn't remain on Terra, but he would never have accepted something like the Ruinstorm and sat on his arse for a few years while a galactic civil war was raging and the Allfather was besieged.

 

Sanguinius meanwhile was, at least for a moment, honestly tempted by Chaos. His sons were afflicted and he was resigned to his own death long in advance. He bowed to its inevitability. He just knew what had to happen, rather than made a conscious sacrifice to change the outcome of the war. He was a victim of clairvoyance and fate, and I'd argue more so than a proper martyr. That doesn't change that his death was necessary and a vital part in the end of the Heresy War, but Sanguinius struggled a lot prior to it.

You could argue that his willingness to die even knowing he would makes him that loyal, but from a different angle, it almost looks complacent and passive, whereas the likes of Russ were more proactive.

[LaurieJGoulding]

Don't worry, everyone - I know that no one at BL ever believed Andrey speaks for the fan community as a whole.

[bluntblade]

Here's a thought - Dorn is the most loyal in regards to following his orders to the letter, anything amd everything that is asked of him, and we see that filter down to his sons. Guilliman is most loyal to the ideal, committing himself to rebuilding when the Emperor is first thought to have fallen, and when He actually has. Russ' loyalty, no less intense, is on a more personal, perhaps less complex level. He takes it upon himself to seek out and tackle what he sees as threats. Had the Wolves rearmed and repaired at Alaxxes unmolested, he'd likely have still gone to fight Horus instead of following Dorn's summons - he says as much in Scars. As with everything about Russ, it's a double-edged sword, but admirable in its own way.

 

Side note before the mods level their cyclonic torpedoes at me, I wonder what happened to the watch pack sent to keep an eye on the Khan.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

They were all loyal in their own way. Thing is though they all had their own way of expressing it.

 

Though dorn appeared to be the most diligent in his duties it also limited him a lot. Maybe the way the loyalist primarchs acted was just their own way of trying to do right by the big E.

[LaurieJGoulding]

It's interesting, because (to bring it back on topic) there are some implications for Tallarn and other theatres of the war, based on the Space Wolves watch-packs and whether or not we know what happened to them... we don't know whether they ever reached their assigned primarch, or were simply killed once they did.

 

Dark Angels - unknown

Emperor's Children - unknown

Iron Warriors - unknown

White Scars - unknown (good luck! No one really knew where the Khan was at that point, even the majority of his own Legion)

Space Wolves - not applicable

Imperial Fists - the Howl of the Hearthworld are presumably on Terra

Night Lords - killed by Curze's followers, one of them was returned to Terra as a message

Blood Angels - killed by Amit during Signus Prime

Iron Hands - unknown

World Eaters - unknown

Ultramarines - serving at Guilliman's side on Macragge

Death Guard - unknown

Thousand Sons - not applicable

Sons of Horus - unknown

Word Bearers - unknown

Salamanders - unknown

Raven Guard - killed by Navar Hef and his Raptor contingent, before they could find Corax

Alpha Legion - killed by "Alpharius" even after they thought they had killed him

 

The secrecy of the watch-packs' mission seems to be what made them so difficult to keep track of.

 

Interestingly, the White Scars and the Imperial Fists both have *some* presence at Tallarn by the end of the war, there.

[R_F_D]

Thanks, Laurie.  I didn't realise 55% of the packs are as known as yet.

 

Is this the last HH book you edited? 

[HeritorA]

Heritor, you keep harping on Russ when it comes to the Watch Packs. What you are very conveniently forgetting is that Russ didn't have the idea. Malcador gave the orders.

 

Russ approved of them, but it is the Regent of Terra that made this happen. And obviously he trusts Russ's loyalty enough. Is it really hypocrisy and arrogance when the Wolf King wasn't even the driving force behind the whole deal?

Russ endorsed it, and picked his sons for the task. But it all happened because the Sigillite willed it.

Exactly! He approved and endorsed. The biggest hypocrisy is always a tap on your shoulder from the person closest to you, with a knife in the left hand.

 

Don't worry, everyone - I know that no one at BL ever believed Andrey speaks for the fan community as a whole.

I never believed BaC does ;)

 

 

It's interesting, because (to bring it back on topic) there are some implications for Tallarn and other theatres of the war, based on the Space Wolves watch-packs and whether or not we know what happened to them... we don't know whether they ever reached their assigned primarch, or were simply killed once they did.

 

Dark Angels - unknown

Emperor's Children - unknown

Iron Warriors - unknown

White Scars - unknown (good luck! No one really knew where the Khan was at that point, even the majority of his own Legion)

Space Wolves - not applicable

Imperial Fists - the Howl of the Hearthworld are presumably on Terra

Night Lords - killed by Curze's followers, one of them was returned to Terra as a message

Blood Angels - killed by Amit during Signus Prime

Iron Hands - unknown

World Eaters - unknown

Ultramarines - serving at Guilliman's side on Macragge

Death Guard - unknown

Thousand Sons - not applicable

Sons of Horus - unknown

Word Bearers - unknown

Salamanders - unknown

Raven Guard - killed by Navar Hef and his Raptor contingent, before they could find Corax

Alpha Legion - killed by "Alpharius" even after they thought they had killed him

 

The secrecy of the watch-packs' mission seems to be what made them so difficult to keep track of.

 

Interestingly, the White Scars and the Imperial Fists both have *some* presence at Tallarn by the end of the war, there.

Great depiction. Ty for the clarification. I love you too

[Petitioner's City]

All this talk of loyalty reminds me of 'loyalty to the end':

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDXGCTkjD78

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3jKd6J36UY

 

 

Boss: No. It had nothing to do with you. I already told you, Jack. I was on a top-secret mission. A soldier has to follow whatever orders he's given. It's not his place to question why. But you're looking for a reason to fight. You're a natural born fighter, but you're not quite a soldier. A solider is a political tool, nothing more. That's doubly true if he's a career soldier. Right and wrong have no place in his mission. He has no enemies and no friends. Only the mission. You follow the orders you're given. That's what being a soldier is all about.

Snake: I do whatever I have to do to get the job done. I don't think about politics.

Boss: That's not the same thing. Sooner or later, your conscience is going to bother you. In the end, you have to choose whether you're going to live as a soldier, or just another man with a gun. There's a saying in the Orient; "Loyalty to the end." Do you know what it means?

Snake: Being... Patriotic?

Boss: It means devoting yourself to your country.

Snake: I follow the President and the top brass. I'm ready to die for them if necessary.

Boss: The President and the top brass won't be there forever. Once their terms are up, others will take their place.

Snake: I follow the will of the leader, no matter who's in charge.

Boss: People aren't the ones who dictate the missions.

Snake: Then who does?

Boss: The times. People's values change over time. And so do the leaders of a country. So there's no such thing as an enemy in absolute terms. The enemies we fight are only in relative terms, constantly changing with the times.

Snake: ...

Boss: As long as we have "loyalty to the end," there's no point in believing in anything... even in those we love.

Snake: And that's the way a soldier is supposed to think?

Boss: The only thing we can believe in with absolute certainty is the mission, Jack.

 

 

Boss: Life's end... (drops the Davy Crockett) Isn't it beautiful? It's almost tragic. When life ends, it gives off a final lingering aroma. Light is but a farewell gift from the darkness to those on their way to die. I've been waiting, Snake, for a long time. Waiting for your birth, your growth, and the finality of today. 

Snake: Boss, why are you doing this?

Boss: Why? To make the world one again. The world used to be whole. But with the end of the Second World War, the Philosophers began to fight amongst themselves and the world was torn apart. The Cobras, my comrades who trained and fought alongside me, were torn apart as well. The foibles of politics and the march of time can turn friends into enemies just as easily as the wind  changes. Ridiculous, isn't it? Yesterday's ally becomes today's opposition. And this Cold War? Think back... When I was leading the Cobras, America and Russia were fighting together. Now consider whether America and Russia will still be enemies in the 21st century. Somehow, I doubt it. Enemies change along with the times, and the flow of the ages. And we soldiers are forced to play along. I didn't raise you and shape you into the man you are today just so we could face each other in battle. A soldier's skills aren't meant to be used to hurt friends. So then what is an enemy? Is there such thing as an absolute timeless enemy? There is no such thing and never has been. And the reason is that our enemies are human beings like us. They can only be our enemies in relative terms. The world must be made whole again. The Philosophers must be reunited. I will devote my skills to that purpose.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Petitioner's City

[HeritorA]

Petitioner's City

we love you too ;)

 

But all in all great point, through a bit of an overextension

[Fire Golem]

Night Lords - killed by Curze's followers, one of them was returned to Terra as a message

 

What story is this from? I didn't know about that.

[HeritorA]

 

Night Lords - killed by Curze's followers, one of them was returned to Terra as a message

What story is this from? I didn't know about that.

 

'The Watcher' - short story by C.Z. Dunn

Also collected in'Echoes of Imperium' (A Horus Heresy audio anthology)

and numbered Book 37: The Silent War

[Carach]

surely several of those legions are not applicable because the packs were only implemented in the aftermath of Horus' original uprising?

 

So there wouldn't have been a pack for Horus, Fulgrim, Morty and Angron ?

[Tymell]

surely several of those legions are not applicable because the packs were only implemented in the aftermath of Horus' original uprising?

 

So there wouldn't have been a pack for Horus, Fulgrim, Morty and Angron ?

 

They were implemented after Magnus' psychic blunder, but before Horus' initial treachery came out, if I remember rightly. By the time of Isstvan III, the Wolves were busy recovering from Prospero. The only legions (as far as we know right now) with no watch-packs would be the Wolves themselves and the Thousand Sons.

[LaurieJGoulding]

Tymell is correct - the watch-packs were sent secretly, by *Malcador*, at the same time that Russ was sent to bring Magnus back. By the time of Isstvan III, the traitors' cover was blown. Also, remember that Horus WASN'T definitely a traitor when Magnus contacted the Emperor. Re-visit 'False Gods' for more on that timing.

 

On an unrelated note, I find it hard to believe that Russ would have been in personal communication with Horus (re: going harder on Magnus) and for a watch-pack NOT to have been sent to him as well. I wonder if we'll ever find out any more about those poor guys...

 

 

Is this the last HH book you edited? 

 

Which one? 'Shattered Legions'? No, I think my name is on one more anthology, and I commissioned or planned everything to the end of the series. 'Tallarn' was all commissioned by me, but I didn't read the compiled edition.

 

The last books I read (and officially provided feedback as the editor) were 'The Crimson King' for HH, and 'Lorgar' for the Primarchs series. I directly commissioned 'Ruinstorm', 'Old Earth', 'Fulgrim', 'Ferrus Manus' and about three more after that, too... but they weren't finished until after I left BL.

 

I'm still answering lore questions and Skyping any author who wants to tap my brain-knowledge. I still attend the HH meetings at GW, too.

Edited May 15, 2017 by LaurieJGoulding

[R_F_D]

Thanks, Laurie.  I had meant Tallern but I realise that was a nonsensical question as the content has only been written by John.  Any hints on what that new anthology contains?

[HeritorA]

Tymell is correct - the watch-packs were sent secretly, by *Malcador*, at the same time that Russ was sent to bring Magnus back. By the time of Isstvan III, the traitors' cover was blown. Also, remember that Horus WASN'T definitely a traitor when Magnus contacted the Emperor. Re-visit 'False Gods' for more on that timing.

 

On an unrelated note, I find it hard to believe that Russ would have been in personal communication with Horus (re: going harder on Magnus) and for a watch-pack NOT to have been sent to him as well. I wonder if we'll ever find out any more about those poor guys...

 

 

Is this the last HH book you edited? 

 

Which one? 'Shattered Legions'? No, I think my name is on one more anthology, and I commissioned or planned everything to the end of the series. 'Tallarn' was all commissioned by me, but I didn't read the compiled edition.

 

The last books I read (and officially provided feedback as the editor) were 'The Crimson King' for HH, and 'Lorgar' for the Primarchs series. I directly commissioned 'Ruinstorm', 'Old Earth', 'Fulgrim', 'Ferrus Manus' and about three more after that, too... but they weren't finished until after I left BL.

 

I'm still answering lore questions and Skyping any author who wants to tap my brain-knowledge. I still attend the HH meetings at GW, too.

1) One more anthology after Tallarn - right... Hello 2015 with recycled stuff

2) That you commissioned 'Ruinstorm' (which I will probably read cause I do hope it will end once and for all Imperium Secundus line. That Imperium Secundus - which you view as good but it is boring as hell) and 'Old Earth' (which I will definitely not - cause even if you did Vulkan Lives and Deathfire than I do not believe you helped Kyme to do that one better). But I'm more glad that you commissioned 3 after that - cause even minus 1 recycled anthology at least 2 would be new and at least on of them would be Beta-Garmont AT LONG FETHING LAST.

3) So you are still working 2 jobs in general terms

[Tymell]

'Old Earth' (which I will definitely not

So you won't be reading Old Earth, and therefore won't have any excuse to complain about it?

[hopkins]

 

'Old Earth' (which I will definitely not

So you won't be reading Old Earth, and therefore won't have any excuse to complain about it?

 

 

http://desunhospital.com/backend/en/uploads/images/BURNS%20UNIT.jpg

[Tymell]

Just to clarify, I'm not trying to be mean to Heritor, though I won't deny a bit of snark. I'm just trying to clarify that if he isn't reading it, there shouldn't be any need to critique it when it comes out.

 

And I feel this is a fine idea: if you really have given up on an author/series, there's no point forcing yourself through something you know you won't enjoy.

[HeritorA]

Just to clarify, I'm not trying to be mean to Heritor, though I won't deny a bit of snark. I'm just trying to clarify that if he isn't reading it, there shouldn't be any need to critique it when it comes out.

 

And I feel this is a fine idea: if you really have given up on an author/series, there's no point forcing yourself through something you know you won't enjoy.

Definitely. But as a reader of a serie - you need to know what will transpire. That you could do by 2 ways - reading lexicanum or forums, or - buy and read the book. Second case is a much quicker one - cause of ebooks.

 

Guys and let's be honest - you hate bad books yourself. You simply are too 'conformist' to tell the critic to the authors.