Are Citadel paints useless for airbrushing or am I a moron?

[Evil Eye]

So having finally gotten a proper airbrushing setup and having done a bit of practice with it, I decided to have a stab at basecoating some models with it. I didn't try anything overly ambitious, just single colours over primer.

 

Note that some Xenos were involved but given the circumstances and the general problems I've been having (which are applicable to any model) I think that should be acceptable.

 

So first I tried basecoating some Tyranid Termagants with Khorne Red, over a Corax White undercoat. I set the compressor to 25 PSI, loaded up my Iwata Eclipse a bit of Khorne Red, enough water to get it to a milky consistency, and a tiny bit of Vallejo Flow Improver.

 

Unfortunately, I almost immediately ran into trouble. No matter how careful I was with trigger discipline, I couldn't get it right. Spraying closer caused the paint to pool and clog details (and necessitate being blown off with air) and from too far away it just ran right off.

I tried lowering the PSI to about 15, and whilst this produced better results it was still a royal pain. Eventually though, after much faffing about I got them basecoated. I did the same with Warpstone Glow on some wings (again over Corax White) and whilst it came out very thin and will definitely need a second coat, it didn't go awfully.

 

Then...I tried to paint the Noise Marines.

 

I had previously undercoated them with Chaos Black. No troubles there, everything went fine. Then however I tried basecoating them with Pink Horror (same consistency as before) and oh god the mess. The paint just would not settle and came out horrendously watery. The paint just pooled and ran off. I tried adding more paint to the mixture...which had basically no effect. I spent ages mucking about with ratios of water to paint to flow improver, but nothing would get the paint to go right. Either it went on too thick and pooled and wrinkled or it went on too thin and just dripped off. There wasn't a "sweet spot" and nothing I could do would get the paint to just go on properly.

 

Eventually I gave up and the models are currently sitting in the shed drying. I'm going to leave them to dry and see if the paint "levels out" as it has before. (though I have a feeling one of the models is going to need stripping- can Forge World resin be stripped?)

 

So I can see three possibilities.

1: Citadel paint is worthless for airbrush work.

2: I should have used a chemical thinner (like my Tamiya thinner) or I shouldn't have used the flow improver.

3: I am an incompetent half-wit who needs banning from airbrushing.

 

So what am I doing wrong?

[Sugarlessllama]

So when I have used citadel paints in my airbrush, I tend to use only Vallejo thinner to thin it out. I try to use one drop of thinner for every three drops of paint. I have had pretty good luck with it so far.

[Prot]

I think some colours appear chalkier than others, but you can do this. I've done it for years.

 

I don't know Iawata, but I bet if you take the opposite approach you may find you have more luck. There are times over the years where I've been certain I've thinned the paint enough. But I was wrong.

 

If you are getting clogs, this is most likely the problem. 

 

Once you have your airbrush completely cleaned... and I mean super clean, I don't mean running water through it, I mean take (carefully) the needle out, and make sure not a single knot of paint is sitting on that needle... just do not bend it... it's brass and you'd have to replace it.

 

Once you know you have the airbrush totally clean, start with thinner in the pot. Test it right away... do you get a clean, very controlled spray? (you don't have to do a lot of this, but just try it on paper to see the effect).

 

Now with a little bit of  water and/or thinner in the pot fresh after your test, now take an eye dropper and extract a few pearl sized drops. No more than 2. 

 

What I do at this point is take a beater brush that doesn't have loose strands on it... and I mix the concoction in the pot. Now do your paper test again, but for a few seconds to let your new mix hit the paper....

 

Is it too thin? Add another single drop or two of paint, remix with a brush, let it blow out for a few seconds to get the 'true' understanding of the new consistency.

 

Until you get a true feel for how different these paints work in your airbrush, this is the best  way I can help you get it working. But trust me on this, especially as a beginner you need to take the opposite approach to using Citadel paints like this. 

 

This is conservative and it means you will start out 'watery' and work your way to 'milk' instead of what you are currently doing starting 'milk-shake' and working your way to 'milk'. 

 

After you do this a few times you can even take your extra mix and put it in a capped pot.

 

And always check that tip... use a toothbrush if you have to, but with reds and other chalkier colours you will find some challenges in heavier paints with the tip getting build up.

 

I hope this makes sense but I really believe if you do this you'll find out exactly where you need to be with the paint, and experience far less clogging. 

[Mazer Rackham]

Brother Prot has spoken with great wisdom.  With an airbrush cleanliness is next to Emperor-ness.

 

Citadel base paints are also very pigment rich - I found I needed to thin a lot.

 

I don't actually thin my airbrush paints with water at all - it has the tendency to start separating acrylics when thinned too much.  A tip I got from a master airbrusher was to thin with screenwash, it's dirt cheap and does the job (all UK screenwash is ammonia free I think, so you're alright to use it, but I always use a mask).  I have had good results with it. In the end though airbrushing is just like Prot says - experiment, fiddle, test. Then practice, practice and more practice.

 

And then repeat and....it will just click.

 

Good luck!

 

MR

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

So first I tried basecoating some Tyranid Termagants with Khorne Red, over a Corax White undercoat. I set the compressor to 25 PSI, loaded up my Iwata Eclipse a bit of Khorne Red, enough water to get it to a milky consistency, and a tiny bit of Vallejo Flow Improver.

 

Unfortunately, I almost immediately ran into trouble. No matter how careful I was with trigger discipline, I couldn't get it right. Spraying closer caused the paint to pool and clog details (and necessitate being blown off with air) and from too far away it just ran right off.

 

I tried lowering the PSI to about 15, and whilst this produced better results it was still a royal pain. Eventually though, after much faffing about I got them basecoated. I did the same with Warpstone Glow on some wings (again over Corax White) and whilst it came out very thin and will definitely need a second coat, it didn't go awfully.

 

What is your needle gauge? The one included with the Eclipse is 0.35 I think. How thin are you thinning the paints? What are you thinning them with? If all else fails, use Citadel Air instead.

 

Thinning more and thinning with rubbing alcohol will likely solve all your problems. But no, Citadel is not the ideal paint for airbrushes. It can work, but it's not a paint that was designed for airbrushing.

[Kilofix]

Been using Citadel Eclipse - with default needle and Citadel paints with no issues.

 

With regular Citadel paints about 50% windex or a drop of flow improver seems to do the job. With Citadel air, I use straight as is. Running about 25-30psi.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

As stated, experimentation is essential because each paint will be different and I would also suggest looking up some videos on airbrushing to get an idea of the ideal consistency; lot of guys will check it by tapping a brush or the end of the paint feed tube with the diluted paint on it against the side of the receptacle and look for certain characteristics in the paint like how fast it runs down the side, how transparent it is, etc.

[Venerable Jazzman]

 A tip I got from a master airbrusher was to thin with screenwash, it's dirt cheap and does the job (all UK screenwash is ammonia free I think, so you're alright to use it, but I always use a mask)

Possibly a stupid question, but does the blue tint that screenwash have affect the colour mix, or not?

I've never tried it, but when you can get a litre of screenwash for £1, or 75ml of flow improver for £6.75, wouldn't mind giving it a go. :D

[Evil Eye]

Thanks for all the advice.

 

Having checked on the models, I'm pleased to report they are not in fact ruined. They'll need another round of spraying for certain (hopefully with properly mixed paint this time) but that's about it.

 

Is Tamiya thinner any good for Citadel? I've had good results with it for hand brushing, and it works wonders when airbrushing actual Tamiya paint, but for airbrushing non-Tamiya stuff I'm not sure. Am I better off just buying some Vallejo thinner/Windex and keeping the Tamiya thinner for Tamiya paint?

 

Speaking of paint, what's the best place to get Vallejo in the UK? I don't think I'll replace my trusty Citadel stuff altogether but for airbrushing they seem ideal, especially with the dropper caps.

 

In any event I'd probably better get on Amazon and start buying stuff...

[White Wolf]

I would say that most Citadel paints are not ideal for airbrushing - it's not that they're pigment rich, it's that the pigment particles are larger than in specific airbrush paints.

This will cause the airbrush to clog - especially with the smaller needle/nozzle sizes - I tend to use 0.25mm in my Iwata Micron and 0.20 in my H and S - but I use specific airbrush paints - Vallejo Model Air and Vallejo Game Air which have small pigment sizes compared to paints that are designed for brush painting.

The needle/nozzle sizes have very little effect if any on the line thickness - the finer combinations are for very thin solutions such as ink used by graphic artists - which means the finer you needle/nozzle the thinner your paints need to be.

I use Vallejo thinner and I've found that to be the best for most makes of paint (I also use Mig paints and Com-Art) which are all designed for airbrush use.

The other thing that is very worth doing is getting onto a basic airbrush course - I went to one at Barwell Body Works for modellers using their airbrushes from scratch - I learned an awful lot in a weekend and it increased my confidence and ability no end - for example I learnt how to keep the airbrush tip clean during use and how to clean effectively and quickly between colours.

Screen wash in the UK contains iso propyl alcohol - to stop it freezing - this makes it a good airbrush thinner which is why people use it.

As other posters have said - practice is key - it took me a long time to get competent with an airbrush, but the time saving and finishes you can produce is well worth it.

ATB WW

[Evil Eye]

Funny you mention Barwell Bodyworks, their stall is where I got my spray booth from at Salute! A shame I live so far away from Barwell itself, as I have heard their courses are really good. I wonder if there's anything similar near Horsham?

[sockwithaticket]

 

Speaking of paint, what's the best place to get Vallejo in the UK? I don't think I'll replace my trusty Citadel stuff altogether but for airbrushing they seem ideal, especially with the dropper caps.

Dark Sphere , Element Games or Troll Trader for online purchasing.

[Mazer Rackham]

Possibly a stupid question, but does the blue tint that screenwash have affect the colour mix, or not?

I've never tried it, but when you can get a litre of screenwash for £1, or 75ml of flow improver for £6.75, wouldn't mind giving it a go.

Not a stupid question at all good fellow!

It looks oddball when you're mixing it in yellow, but mixed up well I cannot see any colour marbling, nor evidence of tint in either the airbrush bowl, test paper or on the model.

I detect no colour hue change in any other paint I've used: grey, green, blue, red. I suspect that if there is any alteration, it is too slight for (my) notice.

I haven't tried it with white or silver yet, but I expect zero issues. The cost is a great reason to try it :)

MR.

[SW1]

Hmmm ... I thought the window cleaner lark was a joke but it seems I need to correct myself and have a go. :tu:

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Nope, Windex and windo/glass cleaners the world 'round have been used as thinners or flow improvers for years.

[SW1]

Hmmm ... UK Windolene any good?

 

Seems like it has vinegar in it?

[Trevak Dal]

Been using Citadel Eclipse - with default needle and Citadel paints with no issues.

 

With regular Citadel paints about 50% windex or a drop of flow improver seems to do the job. With Citadel air, I use straight as is. Running about 25-30psi.

Just regular blue Windex? I'd figure it would mess with the color ever so slightly.

[Evil Eye]

Well I seem to have gotten the hang of airbrushing Citadel paint, so that's something. Hooray!

Unfortunately (and I really should just retitle this thread "Squigsquasher's continued airbrush incompetence") Vallejo airbrush primer is a different story. I've used airbrush primer before in the form of Mr. Surfacer, which goes through the brush very well "neat" (that is with no thinning) and dries ultra smooth. However, Vallejo primer, especially the white one, is a bit more...finicky. Spraying them neat give generally decent results but results in a LOT of clogs, which is obviously far from ideal. Thinning it (with the proper thinner) enough to avoid said clogs turns it into a runny mess that pools in the recesses. There's also one piece I've been working on that refuses to dry properly, either orange-peeling or going mostly smooth but with a few teeny tiny lumps. Now granted I have stripped this particular piece with Dettol, but I did scrub it thoroughly in soapy water afterwards. I'm sure I'll be able to sand the primer smooth, but it's still very annoying. Am I doing something wrong? Have I got a dud bottle? Are there better black and white airbrushing primers on the market?

[fisheyedbunny]

Haven't tried GW paints in my airbrush yet but I will be keeping this thread in mind when I do, some good info in here for me to steal

As for primer I don't bother with the airbrush stuff, just use the Halfords Black Primer that they do for cars, you also get it in Grey. Unsure if the White is a primer but if not can do Grey then White. Cheap for the big cans and does the job

[Venerable Jazzman]

Halfords do a white primer, and it works well.

Haven't tried their grey primer yet, I'd forget which models I'd already basecoated ;)

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

I always use rattle cans for priming.

[Mazer Rackham]

I always use rattle cans for priming.

 

I second this advice.

 

I do have experience with Vallejo primer and I can say that you should use it neat, but on occasion I have had to thin it as well (screenwash!).  White is...meh, black is ok, the grey is the better of the three.  I oddly found RAL8000 to also be quite good!

 

Another thing to bear in mind when airbrushing is temperature.  Too much humidity, the paint won't dry.  Too much heat, the paint dries BEFORE it reaches your model and turns the paint into chalk.  Unless I am wanting to prime in a colour I simply can't obtain (a mixed colour perhaps) I hit it with the spray primer.

 

You are not incompetent, these are teething troubles we've all had - soon your airbrushed models will blot out the sun ;)

 

MR.

[Evil Eye]

Thanks for the advice, folks!

 

I think the piece in question I was having difficulty with (the hindquarters of a Carnifex) was not properly stripped. I gave it the ol' overnight Dettol Dunk treatment, scrubbed it thoroughly, let it dry and sanded down the remaining chalky bits. I hit it with Corax White and it worked just fine. Huzzah!

 

The reason I had intended to switch to airbrushing primer was that A: I'm not the best with cans (though my spray booth has helped immensely), and B: I foolishly assumed the increased control one gets from airbrushing would make priming a breeze...which it's safe to say was not the case. FWIW I've had very good results with Mr. Surfacer through an airbrush, and I may use that for anything that needs grey primer ("Display" models, non-wargaming stuff like scale models and Gunpla, etc) but then that's a very different beast to Vallejo primer. In any event, whilst I'll do some experimenting with my Tamiya primer and Mr. Surfacer to see which one I like best, I think I'll stick to GeeDubs for my black and white priming needs.

 

White primer in general seems to be more difficult to use than black- I've found Chaos Black goes on a lot happier than Corax White, and the same with the Vallejo stuff (the Vallejo Black was actually really good, clogging aside). Is it something to do with the chemical makeup or is it just that errors are more obvious in white?

 

Also, I got some Khorne Red Air paint today, and it is gorgeous. Sprays perfectly with no thinning (though I add a few drops of Vallejo flow improver because it is lovely stuff) and doesn't run everywhere. Yay!

 

Thanks for the tip on temperature as well. I'm doing my stuff in a shed, which whilst certainly better than nothing is not exactly temperature controlled. On the plus side it does stay cool in hot weather due to its positioning.
 

TLDR: Spray cans will do just fine, and Citadel Air paint is great.

 

Also, is there a cheaper alternative to Vallejo Airbrush Cleaner that still does the job just fine? It's great stuff for sure but it isn't cheap and I've already used half the bottle...

[Mazer Rackham]

Screenwash!

 

(Mixed with a hint of Medea/Vallejo to flavour).  Then occasionally to lube and clean (especially for storage) I'll use silicon spray.  Then I'll blitz that out with....guess what?

 

:)

 

MR.

[Evil Eye]

Huh, I really need to get some screenwash by the sounds of things. To Robert Dyas!