The DIY Guide was a bit overwhelming...

[VengefulJan]

 

It is about establishing an idea through small details.

 

I would make it a feudal mining world. Where you are either born into labour, or born into maintaing the status quo. Those born in the mines are strong. They see the marines as a glimmer of hope, as an out. The rulers increase competition by pitting different mining groups against one another, to see who can mine the most, and to drive up output

 

 

Yeah that sounds really cool, but how would this negate the upper class from having their culled off towards being Astartes, that's what I'm asking.

 

Also, the Feudal Mining world sounds awesome, I just don't know why it would be needed, especially since I said I was going with an Agri-World for the chapter. Do you have any reasons why I can't use an Agri-World for a recruiting world?

[Quixus]

 

It is about establishing an idea through small details.

 

I would make it a feudal mining world. Where you are either born into labour, or born into maintaing the status quo. Those born in the mines are strong. They see the marines as a glimmer of hope, as an out. The rulers increase competition by pitting different mining groups against one another, to see who can mine the most, and to drive up output

 

Yeah that sounds really cool, but how would this negate the upper class from having their culled off towards being Astartes, that's what I'm asking.

 How about inbreeding made them weak?

[Radiation]

Here is my take on a WWII US Army style chapter. I've since moved on to another DIY chapter, the Doom Slayers. I look forward to seeing your version!

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279441-invaders-chapter/

[VengefulJan]

 

 How about inbreeding made them weak?

 

 

That would actually be a good reason... also, that's a lot of incest. Is that a heresy or is that a thing that the nobility can get away with in the Imperium?

[VengefulJan]

Here is my take on a WWII US Army style chapter. I've since moved on to another DIY chapter, the Doom Slayers. I look forward to seeing your version!

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279441-invaders-chapter/

 

Read the whole thread, those guys sounded pretty cool, loved the paint jobs (how did you do the star decal?). I think its funny that I'm doing the same thing your doing, but with 8th edition instead, kek. would love to see some recent photos of these guys if you have any.

 

But yeah these guys are just a young blood chapter designed to be the embodiment of everything that we think is cool of the American Army in WWII.

[Olis]

 

 

 How about inbreeding made them weak?

 

 

That would actually be a good reason... also, that's a lot of incest. Is that a heresy or is that a thing that the nobility can get away with in the Imperium?

 

I don't think the Imperium cares so long as they get their tithe. And what with the planet in question being sovereign astartes domains, the tithe is besides the point. The Imperium barely gets a say even if they did care.

 

A better question may be - could the nobility get away with that in the eyes of the Chapter? How does the Chapter view the residing nobility? Useful peons? Chaff, much like the rest of the population? Is it even worth their time to bother keeping the nobility in check? Probably not, outside of culling any errant cult activity that might occur.

 

I think it might be better not to exclude the nobility from being recruited into the Chapter, as you have stated before VengefulJan. Going down the road of showing how the 1% supposedly avoid getting in the line of fire may be a dead end. Nobody will care about such things in the far future.

[VengefulJan]

 

I think it might be better not to exclude the nobility from being recruited into the Chapter, as you have stated before VengefulJan. Going down the road of showing how the 1% supposedly avoid getting in the line of fire may be a dead end. Nobody will care about such things in the far future.

 

 

Yeah, I agree completely. It's kind of a moot point.

 

Also, to show current work in progress of the color scheme in action:

 

http://i.imgur.com/9Q4Y491.jpg

 

So far, I have done everything that I wanted to do with the whites. Next step will be the bolter and anything else that is Leadbelcher/Boltgun Metal, then a wash, clean up, and then finally highlights.

[Claws and Effect]

The point made about organ rejection and physical strength is a valid one.

 

The implanting of the 19 organs that create a Space Marine is grueling, and one of the most extreme things you can subject an adolescent human body to. Even with flawless geneseed and physically strong and healthy aspirants they don't always survive the process.

 

On the plus side, that gives you a ready made reason why your chapter is understrength. With their focus on mental attributes over physical ones, they simply have more aspirants who don't survive the implantation process.

 

Captain America is a poor example. He didn't have organs that don't naturally occur in humans surgically placed inside him.

[GrandMagnus]

Another note I just thought of: How does your chapter interact with their homeworld? As rightfull soverings, with the chapter master being the supreme overlord of the planet ruling it like a king? Do they influence the nobles/ruling classes but take no direct action in the ruling of the world? Or do they just stay away, observing the world from the fortress monastery without interfering in gobernment?

[VengefulJan]

The point made about organ rejection and physical strength is a valid one.

 

The implanting of the 19 organs that create a Space Marine is grueling, and one of the most extreme things you can subject an adolescent human body to. Even with flawless geneseed and physically strong and healthy aspirants they don't always survive the process.

 

On the plus side, that gives you a ready made reason why your chapter is understrength. With their focus on mental attributes over physical ones, they simply have more aspirants who don't survive the implantation process.

 

Captain America is a poor example. He didn't have organs that don't naturally occur in humans surgically placed inside him.

 

Point exactly. Agri-World > Mind-sift > training regime > Trial of the Self (which yields slow results) > Implantation process = Extremely low output for Recruits. I don't know the math or any knowledge on the Initiate yield from such a process, but I'd wager that on a consistent cycle on a yearly basis, this would provide about 5 Neophytes to be utilized as scouts per year. Can anyone correct me on this, I'm just spit balling here.

 

I used Captain America as an example of what the chapter is looking for in an aspirant, nothing more. Again, though, in this Dark Millennium, that really does make the search for aspirants very difficult in addition to everything else.

 

 

Another note I just thought of: How does your chapter interact with their homeworld? As rightfull soverings, with the chapter master being the supreme overlord of the planet ruling it like a king? Do they influence the nobles/ruling classes but take no direct action in the ruling of the world? Or do they just stay away, observing the world from the fortress monastery without interfering in gobernment?

 

The chapter makes itself known that they are there on the planet as a presence, but they let the people govern themselves under a planetary governor. They are will to offer any assistance to the populace that would require the actions of an Astartes chapter (in which the bare minimum would be that of say a planetary invasion) as well as any advice and guidance government policies that effect the planet as a whole (a stable planet is an easy one to work through).

 

Another aspect that a friend of mine tossed to me way back was the concept of a Chapter House, a temple of worship for the masses, and a small fortress of rest and rearmament for the Space Marines. Most of the time, it works as a place where people may perform the daily rituals and prayer to the Imperial Cult and doubles as a recruitment office for the Chapter Serfs (which I some how only recently discovered that they were a thing and now think they are really cool) for those who wish to give themselves to the Chapter. However, when the need arises, it doubles as a defensive bastion against enemy forces, who ever that may be, supplying a reserve stock of armaments and munitions to that of the War Angels for a limited time.

 

For most of the time, though, the War Angels simply utilize the structure as a staging ground and collection point when mind-sifting for potential aspirants by the chapter's Librarians (this could be where those psyker amplification towers could possibly be located).

[Claws and Effect]

5 Scouts per year would lead to the Chapter dying out pretty quickly.

 

Even being as cautious as possible, it's fairly common for a Chapter to lose nearly half a company in a single campaign. It sounds like a lot until you stop and consider that Space Marines aren't even called in until the Guard has already failed most of the time. That tends to pit them against the toughest foes the Galaxy has to offer. Hell, in one book the Raven Guard lost 3 entire squads in a single battle, and you'd be hard pressed to find a Chapter more careful about taking unnecessary casualties (due to their own recruitment problems).

 

5 Scouts per year means losing 3 squads would take 6 years to replace, and it's rare for any Chapter to have that much time between campaigns.

 

I would make it more like 25, and explain it as something about life on that world encourages the mindset they look for.

[VengefulJan]

I would make it more like 25, and explain it as something about life on that world encourages the mindset they look for.

 

Alright, 25 scouts a year it is. Thanks for the insight on casualty rates; Today I learned...

 

Also, what do mean by "life on that world encourages the mindset?"

[Doctor Perils]

Nightrawen is a bit blunt, but he makes very good points - you'll get used to him ;)

 

For the kinds of recruits the chapter looks for: they are basically looking for the peak conditions of humanity (both in physical and intellectual conditions) as these individuals will both have the best chances of making the transition to posthumanity and of being stronger and smarter marines once the process is finished.

 

To ensure that they can get a steady flow of such individuals, marine chapters will often look for death or feral worlds, as people will be on average stronger and more cunning (or they die)

 

However! That does not mean you can't use an agriworld, it doesn't mean you have to make it a feudal world! You *will* want to find a reason for the chapter to choose such a planet. As an alternative to the suggestions I made in my previous post, you could say that there are violent worker-gangs that try to seize the most productive land, or there is an infestation of predatory rabbits so all workers need to know how to fight... there are countless possible reasons, but I still think you need to have one :)

[GrandMagnus]

Again, an agriworld doesnt need to be a feudal world for it's inhabitants to be agresive. As I mentioned, small hives so as to not waste farmlands and still have a technologically advanced society, just add the bit about the workers being generally poor and which often forces the young ones into gangs to protect themselves (kind of what Thørn said).

 

If the planet knows about the astartes and they partake slightly in the worlds gobernment as you said I think having a chapter house (which could be the fortress monastery or on the outskirts of it) sounds like a good idea, for as you said it could be used for recruitment of serfs  as well as a space port for the astartes and other imperial officials.

 

Any thoughts on the chapters tactics? Regular codex tactics or any specific orientation? You might have mentioned it early but I don't recall if you have.

[NightrawenII]

 

The point made about organ rejection and physical strength is a valid one.

 

The implanting of the 19 organs that create a Space Marine is grueling, and one of the most extreme things you can subject an adolescent human body to. Even with flawless geneseed and physically strong and healthy aspirants they don't always survive the process.

 

On the plus side, that gives you a ready made reason why your chapter is understrength. With their focus on mental attributes over physical ones, they simply have more aspirants who don't survive the implantation process.

 

Captain America is a poor example. He didn't have organs that don't naturally occur in humans surgically placed inside him.

 

Point exactly. Agri-World > Mind-sift > training regime > Trial of the Self (which yields slow results) > Implantation process = Extremely low output for Recruits. I don't know the math or any knowledge on the Initiate yield from such a process, but I'd wager that on a consistent cycle on a yearly basis, this would provide about 5 Neophytes to be utilized as scouts per year. Can anyone correct me on this, I'm just spit balling here.

*ahem*

Should I say it doesn't work?

While it's common for Chapter to have just only recruitment world, usually the homeworld, it's in no way a ironclad rule. If the planet fails to produce the desirable qualities in neccesary quantities the Chapter will simply look elsewhere, plain and simple.

 

To be honest, what you have here is plot for the sake of plot. That's bad, because it will break the suspension of disbelief of your readers.

 

 

~ NightrawenII

[VengefulJan]

I think I can bode well with the ideas of hive gangs in the space ports, with a sense of character akin to Gangs of New York/Peaky Blinders.

 

I do want to add that, in addition to picking out the finest from these Hive Gangs, that the chapter psykers do find very young aspirants (ages 5+) who are projected to have a strong will, and as a result, are taken from their homes and are put through rigorous training by the Chapter until they become of proper age to accept the implants.

 

To clarify Magnus, these chapter houses are different from the War Angel's Fortress Monastery. These are much smaller fortifications and structures, small enough that I could make terrain for one on the table, and are dotted through out the planet in areas of strategic importance, of which include major food processing plants and space ports.

 

As for Chapter Tactics and Organization, this is the part I enjoyed the most making:

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The War Angels Chapter follow the doctrines of the Codex Astartes as guide, but variations as to the chapter organization do exist:

 

- All Companies have been renamed to Brigade (i.e. Battle Brigade, Reserve Brigade, etc.)

- The 1st Brigade (Company) has been relegated to a standard Battle Brigade and does not contain the majority of the Chapter's Veterans.

- Brigades 1-4 are relegated to the position of Battle Brigades and each harbor an additional 10 Assault Marines and 10 Devastator Marines for a total of 120 Battle Brothers per Battle Brigade (not including Command or Support Personnel).

- Brigades 5-7 have now been relegated to the designations as Veteran Brigades and serve the dual purpose of acting as a Veteran Company and as a Reserve Company.

- The 5th Brigade maintains the Chapter's Sternguard Veterans and a portion of the Chapter's Tactical Reserves.

- The 6th Brigade maintains the Chapter's Vanguard Veterans and a portion of the Chapter's Tactical Reserves.

- The 7th Brigade maintain the Chapter's Terminator Veterans, a portion of the Chapter's Tactical Reserves, and the Chapter's Devastator Reserves.

- The Scout Brigade is not allocated a number, but is established to hold organization of all the Chapter's Scout Squads as per usual of a Codex Scout Company.

 

- Within standard Brigade structure, a Squad is strictly composed of a maximum of 5 Marines with one Marine designated as a Squad Leader, in most cases a Sergeant.

- 2 Squads, for a total of 10 Marines, compose a Platoon, with one Marine designated as the Platoon leader, in most cases a Veteran Lieutenant. A Veteran Lieutenant is also the Squad Leader of one of his Platoon's Squads.

- 3 Platoons, for a total of 30 Marines, compose a Company, with one Marine designated as the Company Captain. A Company Captain is also a Platoon Leader of one of his Platoons and a Squad Leader of one of his Squads.

- 4 Companies, for a total of 120 Marines, compose a Brigade, lead by a separate Marine by the Rank of Colonel. A Colonel is accompanied by a Command squad of 1 Brigade Champion, 3 Veterans, and an Apothecary.

 

The Career path for a Marine starting from the rank and position of a Neophyte Scout leads them to the Rank of Brother and in the position of either in a Tactical Platoon or of a Devastator Platoon upon recommendation by their Scout Sergeant based upon the natural affinities that he viewed during their training. Afterwards, a Brother may be further elevated to a position within an Assault Platoon upon recommendation of their Company Captain. After time spent within their Assault Platoon, they may either be granted the position of Brigade Champion upon recommendation of their Company Captain and acceptance by their Brigade Colonel, or be given the rank of Veteran by their Brigade Colonel and be reassigned to either the 5th or 6th Brigade based upon their natural combat affinity. Afterwards, a Veteran may be awarded Terminator Honors by their Brigade Colonel and reassigned to the 7th Brigade where they may utilized the Chapter's Tactical Dreadnought Armors.

 

At any point during a Veteran's career, he may petition their Platoon Leader to be allowed act as a Scout Sergeant within the Scout Brigade until his services are no longer required.

 

A Veteran in any of the three Veteran Brigades may be offered the rank and position of Squad Sergeant within a Tactical, Devastator, or Assault Squad. From that point on wards, they may be elevated to the rank and position of Platoon Lieutenant, and then possibly later, of Company Captain.

 

A Veteran in any of the three Veteran Brigades may also be offered the rank and position of Platoon Major, a Veteran Marine who has command over a Veteran Platoon.

 

Company Captains and Platoon Majors are eligible to premoted to the rank and position of Brigade Colonel,usually under the request of the previous Brigade Colonel upon their death. A Colonel may also be appointed by the Master General (Chapter Master) himself, even to overrule the request of a Colonel.

 

 

The preferred strategy of combat is that of maintaining strong infantry lines composed of Tactical units followed shortly behind by Devastator units and screened by Assault units. In accompaniment of this are deployments of Predator Tanks and Rhino Transports.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

That was a lot, I'm quite sure I missed a bunch. Query me on anything that I have written and/or missed. Would also definitely like some help with coming up with a reasoning as to why Chapter would elect to change the names of many chapter positions; the renames are really nice flavor, but I'm kind of in a mental block as to reasons for why it would happen primarily because anything that I can think of is probably not lore friendly.

 

@NightrawenII, based on the criteria that I have laid out (including the bit with the hive gangs) what would be your best estimates of the recruitment out per year for the chapter be? Would that be enough? Would it require the Chapter to look for an additional recruitment world? I have considered digging up a 2nd planet that I wrote up back in the old fluff for this chapter.

[GrandMagnus]

Gotcha on the idea you had for chapter houses, now I know what you mean. Seems like a good idea, you could add the spyker towers to these buildings since they belong directly to the chapter.

 

In regards to the chapter organization, I'm not that fancy myself I usually go for standard codex organization with maybe a company or two less and the marines equally distributed so I don't have much to say on that topic, EXCEPT perhabs the vet companies. Having around 300 veterans (since you mentioned 3 companies of vets) seems like quite a lot, far too many. Also having an entire company of terminator is reeeeally rare, with only a few chapter actually capable of deploying a century of terminators. What I would suggest is that you add the vet companies as regular companies and instead put the veterans into each company. You could mention the are outside the regular number of astartes in each company as veterans are a rarity and not something that can be as easily replaced as regular marines.

 

Just a thought.

[VengefulJan]

 

Having around 300 veterans (since you mentioned 3 companies of vets) seems like quite a lot, far too many. Also having an entire company of terminator is reeeeally rare, with only a few chapter actually capable of deploying a century of terminators. What I would suggest is that you add the vet companies as regular companies and instead put the veterans into each company. You could mention the are outside the regular number of astartes in each company as veterans are a rarity and not something that can be as easily replaced as regular marines.

 

Sorry about that, didn't mean to cause confusion and should have been more clear on the matter. I never said that the Veteran Brigades (Companies) actually contained a full compliment of 120 Veterans. Each Brigade would have approximately 30 Veterans each, totaling at around 90 Marines, 30 of which are trained and equipped in Terminator Armor. The rest of the 3 Veteran Brigades would be composed of reserve units of Tactical and Devastator Marines that have been recently become Battle Brothers with the idea that when not on deployment, daily routine for these Brigades would in part be to train the "new blood" with the most experienced of the chapter's warriors. These Brigades would also, most likely, never be at full strength due to casualties needing to be replaced within the 4 Battle Brigades.

 

Also, the chapter would have in its armory about 40 suits of Tactical Dreadnought Armor (30 by the Veterans and the extra 10 to be utilized by other qualified members of the Chapter).

 

Again, my apologies, I should have been more clear. I am well aware how rare and valuable such wargear is and wish to do as much as possible to help humble the lore of this chapter so that it does not sound like an "over-powered special-snowflake fantasy." Just want this chapter to be archived alongside the many other chapters out there that when someone decides to read the fluff about it, they think to themselves that its a decent read overall.

[Claws and Effect]

I would actually give them less Terminator armor than 40.

 

Largely due to it being so incredibly time consuming and expensive to make. The younger a Chapter is the fewer TDA suits they tend to have. I wouldn't expect anyone other than 1st and 2nd Founding chapters to have more than 25 or so total. The Dark Angels and Imperial Fists seem to be outliers in the number of suits they possess.

 

Given your chapter's similarity to WWII marines, I would expect them to field their Veterans as mostly Sternguard, with the Terminators held in reserve for things like space hulk clearing and other scenarios where there will be little or no cover.

[VengefulJan]

Alright, That sounds like it would be fun on the table top, not being able to field a full 30 terminators, sounds like a challenge. So how many suits would you recommend? And what are the various ways for a young chapter to acquire more, out of curiosity.

 

Sternguard are most definitely a unit I would expect to field quite a bit of, particularly since the new rules for combi-weapons showed up today. It would very much make sense for there to be a bias towards Sternguard.

 

Also, while yes WWII inspired, I wouldn't go as far as Marine Corp Marines. the intention was Army, so things relating to that are where I'm drawing a lot of ideas.

 

For example, one Idea that I have is to make the Assault Squads in the Chapter the equivalent of American Paratroopers, having them be a cut above that of a standard Tactical or Devastator Marine as they will be applying more outflanking and deep striking tactics, which will be putting themselves at higher risk considering their close proximity to the enemy. They are to be armed with Bolters and Flamers to act more like a mobile flanking/skirmishing unit rather than a melee combat unit.

 

The method of application would be to have an Assault Platoon accompany at least one Tactical Platoon and act as a rapid response unit upon the Tactical Platoon's contact with enemy Infantry. The Assault marines would move themselves to a flanking position to put the enemy unit in a crossfire.

 

They can also work in tandem with anti-armor units, such as Devastators or Predators, where they attempt to get close enough to use Melta-Bombs on the intended Target while the Heavy Support unit applies supporting fire at the target.

 

The core concept behind the idea is target saturation, where the enemy has a multitude of targets of equal threat that either choice of target will result in their demise. It's a more focused of the "war of attrition," requiring multitudes of redundancies as casualties will be sustained. This is why Tacticals and Devastators rank up into Assault Marines as a more experienced warrior will be more likely to survive. It also helps ensure that the jump pack will come home to the armory and not have to be scavenged off the battlefield afterwards, where the piece of wargear may be damaged beyond repair.

[Claws and Effect]

I'd say 25 would actually be about right for a young chapter's TDA. That gives you enough for a 10 man squad of each type and 5 left over for characters.

 

As far as acquiring more? They could discover some ancient suits in a drifting ship. They could be gifted a suit by another chapter after saving their bacon in a battle (less likely). Or they could simply wait to get more from the Mechanicus.

 

If you go the "found some on a drifting ship" route, that could also give you an excuse to use a few Cataphracti or Tartaros suits in the tabletop.

[VengefulJan]

I'd use it as ways of acquiring more as writing seeds when making the stories or as a reward for doing a narrative game with an opponent where victory in the game would garner the acquisition of additional suits.

 

Also, what is the likelihood of a five man squad of terminators surviving a space hulk on average, because playing the game Space Hulk Deathwing, seeing a 5 man squad dead at the beach head where resistance is light doesn't suggest high survive-ability.