The future of Scouts

[GreyCrow]

And If you don't get first turn, you can still use them to delay deployment of your key units ;)

 

The Scouts are truly the leatherbound swiss army knife of the moustache twirling general

[Jacques Corbin]

I have to model some Scout sergeants with a Combimelta. I am going to miss the veteran sergeant upgrade for the extra attack in a melee squad. Chainsword though, yeah.

 

So with Jink essentially gone, how viable will snipers sitting in a LSS be? Also, I reckon the Heavy Flamer on that platform will be Burn Baby Burn in this edition.

 

I can't wait to see if the Stormraven still has the Skies of Fury option. If that rule is the same, and you can charge from Deep Strike. I am totally using that to deliver a full melee squad and an Ironclad.

[Claws and Effect]

I'm planning on mixing my Scout squads as far as weapons go.

 

Bolters or shotguns for most of them with a heavy bolter or missile launcher and a couple sniper rifles.

 

Make them a multi trick pony instead of just one. They aren't good enough at any of the tricks for a one trick pony to be worth it.

 

Now that they can split their fire, this tactic is much more viable.

 

Bolters or shotguns at the goons in front of them, krak missile at a vehicle, and snipe a character as well. All in one shooting phase.

 

C'mon guys. Think like Raven Guard! Maximize their utility so they don't become useless when the battle changes.

[Andrés Pacheco]

Mixed squads are defo fluffy and cool. However, given that scouts aren't great performers anyway, I'm not sure the mix of weapons that want to move and those that want to stay still won't further reduce their effectiveness.

 

If RG get a rule to allow turn 1 cover for all units (total guess/fabrication) then camo scouts might make for a great roadblock/confusion unit, with a 2+ save for the first turn.

[Kua]

I could only imagine mixing:

– Sniper rifles with bolters, because latter ones are cheaper but still have some range and could be removed first. Bolter/Missile launcher goes there too.

– Shotguns with CC weapons because former ones can shoot hard before combat and be removed first after CC starts for being less effective there.

 

Mixing everything with everything is still bad because you still have to position you unit in coherency and according to some purpose…

[Race Bannon]

Based on these responses, it's looking like Scouts in a LSS have wide-ranging tactical options and none are one-size-fits-All. Or rather, it's up to personal preferences.

 

I'll have to play with them before I settle on a preference, yet a Heavy Flamer + Shotgun Squad looks very fun in my head.

[Kua]

So what are you planning to do after you closed up on 6" with you LSS and shot once?

Get beaten up in CC?

 

(I’m just curious how it works because I’d like to try this unit by myself but have no LSS yet.

[Race Bannon]

Well, the idea on my head is that the target doesn't strike back in CC ... because they are confetti after the shotgun party.

[GreyCrow]

Shotgun Scouts are indeed a pretty nasty proposition!

[Mr. Poe]

Had a thought: how would you guys feel about bringing a missile launcher with your scout squads? It looks like D6 damage rolls are going to be very important in this edition and this could be a fluffy way of introducing it into a list? It's 25 points just like a lascannon but only S8 vs S9 and its only -2 vs -3 rending. So while not as good as a LC it is more flexible because of the frag profile. Split fire is a thing now so you can tuck one into a sniper squad? Maybe? 

Edited June 15, 2017 by Mr. Poe

[duz_]

Yeh I'll be rocking my sniper scouts again with their ML.

Theyd been chilling for a bit while my CC scouts took the limelight. Appears the tables have turned.

Split fire certainly helps!

[Race Bannon]

Yes.  YES!

 

Besides, Scouts can't bring a LC ... right?

[WAR]

I run the missile launcher with 2 of my bolter teams and heavy bolter with sniper teams. Originally the thought was bolter teams did the job normally done by tactical squads and snipers had a heavy suppression weapon. I am keeping the same thought process in 8e. But I am planning on doing a 3rd bolter team with a heavy bolter as a support squad.

[NiceGuyAdi]

I'm thinking about LSS with Heavy Bolter, Scout with Heavy Bolter and the rest with shotguns. That's a lot of drive-by dakka for crowd control.

 

By the way are hellfire shells still a thing?

Edited June 14, 2017 by NiceGuyAdi

[Kua]

No.

 

ML is quite bad in my eyes. Sure, a sniper squad could take one as a worse but overpriced LC, but I’d avoid them in Tacs.

The frag shot isn’t good either, it is even too bad to make the flexibility count.

[Claws and Effect]

Missile launchers have value in that they do 2 things acceptably well, while trading the ability to be really good at one thing.

 

I don't go into a game thinking my opponent will be dumb enough to put his units in range/view of the units I specifically outfitted to deal with them. So I like having the option of a versatile weapon that can threaten infantry and vehicles equally.

 

I know anything can damage anything now, but that doesn't mean I want to be shooting a Land Raider with a heavy bolter because my opponent is blocking LOS to his infantry with it. A krak missile would be more useful there.

 

Frag missiles are effectively flamers with 6x the range. Th first time you delete an entire squad with one shot from 4 feet away might change your mind.

 

Sure, it might not average as well as other weapons, but at the end of the day 40k is a game, not math homework.

[Kua]

Frag missiles do not autohit.

They are half a flamer for the price of a real heavy weapon…

[Claws and Effect]

Okay.

 

You take the weapons a spreadsheet says are the best.

 

I'll take the ones that sound like fun.

 

Fair enough?

 

I can't even tell you how much I hate when a bunch of people hammer out what the objectively best thing to use is.

 

After a while that's all you ever see. In my opinion it gets boring as hell when everyone uses minor variations of the same list.

 

In 7th I could see a post titled "1850 Sternhammer", and I knew exactly what was in it before I even clicked on it.

 

I'd much rather see people get creative and put together lists because they sounded like fun or because they like how they look pn the table.

 

Building from a spreadsheet that tells you exactly what weapons to take in what numbers might be fun for some people, but for me it feels like someone else is deciding how I'm going to play the game. And that isn't fun for me at all.

[MajorNese]

Building from a spreadsheet that tells you exactly what weapons to take in what numbers might be fun for some people, but for me it feels like someone else is deciding how I'm going to play the game. And that isn't fun for me at all.

Spreadsheets might be nice to decide for a chosen unit what might work best against a certain target, but (especially in case of scouts) it's a different matter. Scouts were never chosen because of their points efficiency and raw firepower, but because they can deploy in ways that tacticals can't.

 

In this case, a missile launcher might be worth it, maybe not because of the direct firepower, but the distraction and flexibility. Suddenly that squad back there with the 2+ (cover, camo) can threaten something bigger, and the opponent has to compensate for it. Maybe keep a damaged vehicle back, maybe divert more firepower, maybe not split that character from his screening unit. The snipers are quite fixed in what they do, but the missile launcher isn't, while too relying on a static position with good LoS. And it will stay alive until the entire unit is dead. I know I'll try it out, once I have built the model.

[Mr. Poe]

Frag missiles do not autohit.

They are half a flamer for the price of a real heavy weapon…

 

Oye, well I disagree, they are a real heavy weapon. I think the ML will be my favorite heavy weapon in 8th. So much so, I think I'm going to build a whole Devastator Squad; each marine with his own bazooka. 

 

In fact, the frag is very good. Here's your HoM on 4D6 shots:

 

http://i.imgur.com/96ZUoIC.png

 

I'll take my 15 shots half the time at 48" away and smile  . Please, feel free to walk those flamers right up to the other guys models.   

Edited June 15, 2017 by Mr. Poe

[Kua]

Interesting.

How do I read those HoM lines in the spoiler?

[Mr. Poe]

It's the probability of rolling at least the number on the left. So, obviously you have 100% to roll at least a total of 4. Similarly, you have a 55% chance of rolling a total of 14. 

 

As a side, with the dice rolling looking to be extra spicy in 8th edition Anydice has a very cool calculator for dice probabilities. 

Edited June 15, 2017 by Mr. Poe

[Kua]

Ah, so it’s just the minimum number of shots of four of them.

I thought it was some further going probability for MLs. ^^

 

In this case I think it suffices to know that 4 frag missiles make ø14 shots, distributed by some gaussian.

If the firing unit didn’t move, we get ~10 hits with S4 AP-0.

But could instead have ~6 hits S7 AP-3 against the same single-wound targets, with an alternative “ammo” mode for heavier targets (and more effective than crack missiles as well) and the slightly shorter range being the only disadvantage. Without doing the calculation, I’d guess the only targets the frag missiles are more effective against are Sv6+ or invul save ones.

 

@ Realityburn:

If anyone says some spreadsheets or calculations would tell him what the absolutely best choices were, there are two options:

a) The person doesn’t understand how to use them or why to take the unit carrying the weapons into account, or

b) GW failed at balancing again, but then it’s not our fault either.

 

I’m not saying Scouts, who only have ML or HB for options, should never take the ML. Similar case for Landspeeders. But I don’t see a place for them on Devastators yet, who have the choice between all the heavy weapons.

Even if you have to move (-1 WS) or shoot through cover (+1 Sv) to reach the targets of your more specialized weapons, you mostly are still better off.

[Mr. Poe]

Ah, so it’s just the minimum number of shots of four of them.

I thought it was some further going probability for MLs. ^^

 

In this case I think it suffices to know that 4 frag missiles make ø14 shots, distributed by some gaussian.

If the firing unit didn’t move, we get ~10 hits with S4 AP-0.

But could instead have ~6 hits S7 AP-3 against the same single-wound targets, with an alternative “ammo” mode for heavier targets (and more effective than crack missiles as well) and the slightly shorter range being the only disadvantage. Without doing the calculation, I’d guess the only targets the frag missiles are more effective against are Sv6+ or invul save ones.

 

Assuming you mean Plasma Cannons, I see it as a more consistent ML, as in less variance in your results. You're rolling D3's vs. D6's and you have a flat damage result vs. a D6 against heavy targets, I can skip the math as well and be confident that you would have a higher damage potential with the ML. Seems pretty balanced to me. 

 

Additionally, direct damage output cannot be the only measurable characteristic you use to define a weapon as good or bad. Versatility, mobility, range and other things such as the RoC demonstrated below:

 

 

Standard Raven Guard tactics right there. 

[Kua]

OK, you got me with the standard tactics.

 

As for the rest:

Yes, plasma, yes, range, and yes, self-destruction on override (someone will mention soon).

But still, even against heavy single targets, we have ø2 shots 2 damage each against 1 shot ø3,5 damage. So it’s down to wounding and passing armour again, with a slight preference towards plasma and a much better capability against TEQs and similar.

 

And I’m not even comparing with the specialized weapons (LC, HB), but with the other versatile choice.

To be fair, I‘m not sure if the MM is not even worse off than the ML.

 

Edit:

To get back to the topic, what do you guys think about shotgun Scouts without LSS?

Do you see an application for them?

Or should cheap infiltrating scouts rather get boltguns for more versatility over some range?

Edited June 15, 2017 by Kua