How Should the Sons of Dorn regard the Primaris Marines?

[d36williams]

For one thing, I want to highlight that these Primaris Marines come from all the different Primarchs, so this isn't just Gulliman spreading his geneseed everywhere. IF/CF/Black Templars/Dorns Hammer will be receiving Marines with the gene seed of their rightful Primarch. 

 

They appear to be ready for battle, having ATSKNF and leadership scores equal to traditional Marines. But how do they integrate?

 

Are our regular marines carbines in a Kalashnikov world? The rules for the Intercessor squad say the unit cannot take special or heavy weapons, so their myopic focus allows traditional marines to maintain their unique flexibility. 

 

In a fluff context, let's say we're Pedro Kantor of the Crimson Fists. Kantor would be in communication with Terra so he'd know Guilliman is now making the decisions. He might even be aware that new marines are coming. 

 

So when they ship pulls up next to Rynn's World and unloads it's cargo of Primaris Marines, does Kantor just welcome them in as the newly rebuilt 7th Company? Does he spar with them for awhile to see how tough they are? Does he have faith in them? Are they not Green? They weren't forged on a Death World, or survivors who showed great promise during the innumerable disasters Marines intervene in, the normal CF recruiting pool. They appear to be the children of rich Terrans who wanted to see their little boy become an iconic warrior. 

 

You can't just paint yourself yellow and expect to be welcomed on board the Phalanx. You can't just show up after the siege of New Rynn City and bask in the royal history of Crimson Fists killing Xenos. Nor can they skip the Neophyte stage and immediately be indoctrinated as Initiates.

 

At the same time no son of Dorn is going to throw out a new tool. 

 

The other thing the Primaris Marines highlight, Guilliman himself has shattered the Codex Astartes. Consolidating the Legions may as well be the next step. 

[Dosjetka]

You ask some very interesting questions and while I don't have any answer for them (yet) I do look forward to seeing how different Chapters react in different ways to these newcomers. There's a lot more nuance possible than I originally thought, too.

[Captain Antonius]

Re-unite the Legion. The galaxy wide warp rift has Imperial Fists on both sides. Only five companies were at Cadia during the 13th black crusade. The Terran side needs us to fall back and defend what we can. To hold back the tides of chaos. The Indomitus Crusade pushes against them while we defend. The Dark Imperium needs those Fists to hang on and not suffer terrible losses as they may not be able to replenish them. This is the darkest of times. Yet, the primaris Marines may be the next step. Should they be created with Dorn's blood, they should be part of the Legion. Of course they will be steeped in our culture. If they wear the iconography, they will earn it in blood.

[Verger]

Personally, I think that Pedro Kantor would resent the Primaris Space Marines. His pleas to too not give up on the Chapter after their heavy losses would feel like nought as his newly refurbished chapter was immediately superseded by what was previously tantamount to heresy.

Though there is also the aspect of the Crimson Fists being used as the Inquisition's "sword" on occasion - so I could imagine that other Chapters which had their nose put out of joint would need to be "brought back into line" by a more loyal chapter.

[d36williams]

I think Pedro Kantor is too noble to feel resentment against anything other than Xenos and traitors. As for rebuilding the chapter before being saturated with Primaris Marines, if you believe the CF were back over 400 members strong by m41.999 (I think that is the last cannon on their numbers, having been nearly destroyed circa m41.971) then I don't think the chapter will lose ties to its culture. But if the numbers are more like ~200 astartes, then the primaris marines really would risk diluting the culture. 

 

I have to wonder what drawbacks the Primaris Marines would have, I was wondering if perhaps they lack leadership and personality, given their quick creation. Like replicants in Blade Runner, they seem to just step out of the robo-womb fully adult with no experience but lots of pre-programmed training. They would need 'adult' astartes to guide them so they can maximize their success.

 

Looking more closely at the model, it's pretty huge! Looks almost exactly the same size as a Sigmarite, a model that is about a head taller than a Terminator, while not nearly as thick. The biggest risk outside of the fluff is that 40k depends on the rule of cool; will space marines still be cool with these guys running around? 

I guess in my headcannon these really tall marines will always be Thunder Warrior tainted mules, destined for a short life

[Verger]

I think Pedro Kantor is too noble to feel resentment against anything other than Xenos and traitors. As for rebuilding the chapter before being saturated with Primaris Marines, if you believe the CF were back over 400 members strong by m41.999 (I think that is the last cannon on their numbers, having been nearly destroyed circa m41.971) then I don't think the chapter will lose ties to its culture. But if the numbers are more like ~200 astartes, then the primaris marines really would risk diluting the culture.

 

At the end of the day, Space Marines are still humans at heart.  I agree with just about everything there, but  I can't imagine any Space Marine being "happy" about their potential replacement.  They'll abide by it, be respectful and loyal - but I'm not sure they'd be happy about it, which is what I'm saying :)

[d36williams]

According to the Live Stream QA on Warhammer Community, upgrading to Primaris Marines is something existing marines can go through. So this could become a spicy tamale! It's possible Space Marine characters will be getting the upgrade.

[recon0321]

I think the Crimson Fists will welcome these "Super Marines" as a way to help rebuild the chapter

[d36williams]

Because FW will be releasing rules to support their line in 8e 40k, I surmise we'll be getting better rules for using the awesome Breacher Shields from 30k. Very Dorn-esque to advance with Tactical Marines hoisting Breacher Shields.

The fluff, according to their 2nd Live QA on GW's facebook page, will include existing marines getting the Primaris upgrade. I guess there is a new Gland or two they can send out for Chapters to begin integrating. I wonder which descendant of Dorn will be the first named character to get the upgrade? I presume it will be an Imperial Fist, being based around Terra. 

Edited May 26, 2017 by d36williams

[Bjorn Firewalker]

My opinion? Marines are weapons in the Emperor and the Primarchs' hands, to be used if effective, discarded if ineffective, destroyed if tainted. The Imperial Fists should view the Primaris Marines the same way they view a new weapon: initially with suspicion if the Primaris Marines' loyalty and competency are unproven, but once those qualities are proven, the Primaris Marines should be treated as full battle-brothers. Edited May 29, 2017 by Bjorn Firewalker

[ronin_cse]

Oh baby!

 

http://i.4cdn.org/tg/1496079392128.jpg

[ak-73]

Gentle reminder that the Crimson Fists were the part of the Imperial Fists that accepted Girlyman's changes after Horus was defeated most readily.

[Smith Kappa]

The primaris marines have already been forced upon our chapter so that isn't really up for debate.

 

As for acceptance I think they will be pissed off at first, only with meditation in the pain glove will they forgive the secrecy and theft of their precious gene. I also believe the only way they will accept the new altered gene of the primaris marines as their brothers will be through battle, even then they will be in separate squads and they will no doubt be watching as primaris marines lead the charge stealing the glories and honors. I believe it would eventually turn out to feel very much like being replaced and always second best. The tradition of sparring to resolve arguments in the chapter will only worsen the situation, the primaris marines being bigger, tougher, stronger and gaining experience with every battle the Space Marines of old will be no match in a duel against the primaris marines. With the primaris marines earning victories and glories they will eventually earn their way up in the ranks til Lysander himself is pushed aside as a primaris marine ascends to chapter master before him. Not only this but the recruiting and making of ordinary marines will no doubt sees to exist and only primaris marines will be recruited and the 10th power armor created. Within 100-500 years the last true Imperial Fist Space Marine with the gene crafted by the Emperor will die and the entire chapter will be solely Primaris Marines.

 

I think realistically this is what would happen, weather or not our chapter will stand by and let it happen is dependent on profit for GW. I for one will be sad to see them go and I doubt I will feel the same way ever again about the chapter or space marines.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Smith Kappa

[High Marshal Bohemond]

If they bring back the Soul Drinkers as a Primaris only chapter and make sure they are Sons of Dorn, I am good with it.

[Vorn_HagenVII]

I concede to the wisdom of the Primarch:

 

"Kord was a Terran, Unlike most of his peers in the 6th Company, who were born on Inwitt. Unlike many other Legions such distinctions meant very little and were rarely discernible; Lord Dorn teaching that, as the smallest hairline fracture might doom the mightiest walls, "Division is weakness" and therefore anathema to all the VIIth Legion stood for."---From 'The Horus Heresy Book 3: Extermination

 

Now Primaris marine is a little different then a marine who was simply born on a different planet, but the principal can, and frankly should still be applied.

[Irbis]

They appear to be the children of rich Terrans who wanted to see their little boy become an iconic warrior.

 

The irony. No one pointed out that IF were exactly that, "children of rich Terrans", at the moment of their founding? Like that one bloke, what was his name, Sigismund?

 

And, unlike the other legions, seeing IF recruit from Terra, they stayed that way? So, yeah

 

The other thing the Primaris Marines highlight, Guilliman himself has shattered the Codex Astartes. Consolidating the Legions may as well be the next step.

 

Shattered how?

 

Primaris are just an addendum, they even get the helmet colors of old tactical/assault/devastator units in both BA and IF, are still divided into Chapters, nothing changed.

 

I also must say I don't get the obsession with legions. They were a tool to reconquer the galaxy in massed assaults, too bid and unwieldy to defend Imperium. A chapter that is in next sector is vastly better asset than a legion half a segmentum away. Not only such 'reunion' would be strategically catastrophic, it would also get rid of almost all 'your guys' seeing 99.9% of chapters would lose all individuality. Really? Consolidate for what purpose, again?

[d36williams]

I'm not advocating consolidation as a hobbyist, but if I were a high level administrator in 40k for the Imperium, I'd want to rebuild legions and expand the empire. The IoM has been slowly losing ever since the end of the Great Crusade. The first Great Crusade was all about eradicating Orks largely; the second one should focus on Chaos and traitors. Some may say a legion holds too much power, yet the IoM didn't exist until the Legions forged it. That power should be used to flail the milky way. 

[Doghouse]

I think given the way the Imperial Fists were depicted in Beast Arises with the entire chapter being wiped and replaced by successors they'd probably be the chapter most used to this idea of new guys taking up the mantle.

 

Primaris are just new recruits really, it's just they have better gear and implants so in my mind I can't see why they'd turn down the chance to get one up on their enemies in the shadow of the events of gathering storm.

[Dosjetka]

I can see some Dornian successors (the older ones from 2nd, 3rd, 4th Foundings) not wanting to accept Guilliman's gift so quickly due to the events that transpired after the Emperor's internment into the Golden Throne and the rise of the Codex Astartes.

And perhaps the Imperial Fists would be the same though the point about them being replaced almost wholesale a number of times would perhaps open them up to accepting Primaris without too much hassle.

[Acebaur]

I could see the IF choosing upgrading over accepting new Primaris, however CF I would think would welcome Primaris as they are still quite a bit under strength (I think)

[Kastor Krieg]

This is EXACTLY what Kantor asked for. Tools to rebuild and restructure. This is EXACTLY what IF need with their constant horrid losses. This is EXACTLY what Templars would welcome, more Crusades among the stars.

We're his sons, too pragmatic to spit a good tool in the eye just to spite it.

[Dosjetka]

Honour and blood > pragmatism, in my head canon.

[Kastor Krieg]

Honour and blood > pragmatism, in my head canon.

How do the Primaris lack in honour and how is their Dornian geneseed any worse, since it comes from M30-32 Legion geneseed tithes?

[Dosjetka]

Who said anything about Primaris lacking in honour or Dornian geneseed being worse? That's some serious reading between the lines/putting words in other people's mouths. :blink:

 

In my view, Guilliman attacked Dorn (by proxy) in the aftermath of the Heresy when the Codex Crisis was a thing. Despite the Imperial Fists Chapter being replaced wholesale since then, I doubt it's something they have forgotten. So when Guilliman reappears and starts lording around again, creating a new breed of Astartes to replace the old, I'd guess that not everyone is very happy about it. The Imperial Fists might accept to upgrade some of their own to test out this new Primaris breed but that's about as far as it would go in my head canon.

As I mentioned, this is my head canon combined with official fluff. I'm not here to debate about how right or wrong it is because that is very subjective. ;)

[Kastor Krieg]

Well, when you stated (I) value blood and honour [more than] pragmatism, in connection with my above statements it reads clearly that it's a negative reply, stating that you think sons of Dorn would reject Primaris for those reasons - that however pragmatic they might be, the ties of blood are not strong enough and there are honour matters which make Primaris and/or accepting them dishonourable.

Hence my question - why, since Dorn's geneseed was used and where's the perceived lack of honour in accepting them coming from. To which, you've answered fairly to the 2nd only.