Primaris Space Marines change everything

[Closet Skeleton]

GW tried to say "we're just adding stuff, not taking anything away, promise' but the simple fact is that things are defined by their relationships. You can't just add something without changing what's already there.

 

Stupid name aside; Primaris Space Marines in Mark X armour are the logical progression on from Thunder Warriors in their mark I armour. It got retconned a bit to make the heresy 'cooler' but the original idea was very much that mark II and III power armour were a bit rubbish compared to mark IV which was impractical compared to the easier to mass produce mark VI and VII. The idea that the Emperor made the Space Marines perfect and irreplaceable is total fanon, iterative improvement has always been there in the fluff. It was only ever the stagnancy of the Imperium that made keeping weapon tech around for 39,800 years a thing. Guilliman wanting to refine his arsenal and ordering a tech priest to attempt it only makes perfect sense, just as the project stalling and being swept under the rug after Guilliman's death makes thematic sense.

 

Attempts to make better Space Marines have been around in the fluff for a long time. If they have any sense they'll reveal that the Dark and Cursed Foundings were offshoots of the Primaris project. There's a direction GW could have gone down that would make "but the cursed founding proved this was impossible so Primaris marines destroy setting consistancy" an okay argument but the idea that a failure from thousands of years ago would be the end of a ten millennia project doesn't make any sense. We already had the Badab War book's Minotaurs as an apparent perfection of the Cursed Founding.

 

So yes, 40k is changing and if you didn't want that then that's unlucky for you. But all the other :cuss you complained about everything being a narrow victory for the Imperium and the same heroes always surviving was inevitable if the setting didn't change. Keeping the setting the same led to a lot of boring fluff because all the good takes on the concept had already been done so every new idea felt inconsequential and sub par.

 

So if you ever wanted a Thunder Warriors army but never had the time to convert one, good news. Your existing Space Marine army are now Thunder Warriors. If you never wanted to play Thunder Warriors then I suppose you have a right to vent your frustrations but I also have a right to not read them.

 

Before Heresy nerdery set in and Forge World decided it could sell models by inventing more and more lost tech, the story of Power Armour development was heavily derived from real world military hardware development.

 

Space Marines have gone from being the best top of the line weapon of the Imperium to the equivalent of the Iowa-class Battleship or the A-10 Thunderbolt II, theoretically obsolete pieces of military hardware that were just too badass to decommission.

 

While hopefully Primaris Marines will remain the equivalent of the Sturmgewehr 44 , ahead of their time next generation hardware that just couldn't be produced in large enough numbers to turn the tide of a warzone by themselves and ended up always over-stretched.

 

I'm not going to say I like the standard Space Marines' new position, just that it still has the potential to be cool. I don't have the faith in GW to say that they're going somewhere interesting, but there's an a lot of interesting stuff they could do if they hold back on just having the new hotness solve everything.

[Race Bannon]

For narrative play, maybe say it's M39 ^_^

[Pirate Brushes]

For narrative play, maybe say it's M39

Or just 999.M41 since all this happens after Cadia's destruction. The setting has well and truly advanced now, despite all the naysayers saying that the game isn't Warhammer 41,000

[Joe]

I know people that continued playing WHFB in the Storm of Chaos continuity, as opposed to the End Times. It's your ballpark.

[Lexington]

So yes, 40k is changing and if you didn't want that then that's unlucky for you. But all the other you complained about everything being a narrow victory for the Imperium and the same heroes always surviving was inevitable if the setting didn't change. Keeping the setting the same led to a lot of boring fluff because all the good takes on the concept had already been done so every new idea felt inconsequential and sub par.

Eh, naw. The "same heroes" issue is a fairly recent one, spurred on by GW getting all synergy-marketing on their background and trying to make fairly bland 40K special characters into mini-franchises with their own novel series, comic books and matching sleepwear sets. Before GW got the Disney IP Model bug, there was a pretty clear line of separation between "setting" material like BL books and the tabletop, because Chapter Masters are pretty boring on a day-to-day level. The galaxy's really damn big, tho. Lots of ideas and potential characters out there to write about, and if there's a lot of boring fluff out there anymore (and, man, is there ever), it's because the Studio has become either unable or unwilling to release anything that couldn't be immediately grasped by an eight-year old.

Space Marines have gone from being the best top of the line weapon of the Imperium to the equivalent of the Iowa-class Battleship or the A-10 Thunderbolt II, theoretically obsolete pieces of military hardware that were just too badass to decommission.

Have they, tho? I'm with you on the concept of iterative development and an Imperium that's not completely enslaved to millennia-old technology on every single front, but I've never really gotten the impression that Marines aren't that useful anymore. The problem with Marine portrayal lately is that they're shown as a standalone army, masters at literally every aspect of warfare. They're marines, tho - small 'm,' there, being important. They're purpose-built for boarding actions, clearing the way for landing more standard troops and other short-range shock trooper roles. They're still the best tool for that in the Imperium, prior to the arrival of Primaris, far as I can tell. They're just not well-suited for long-term, open warfare.

[Doghouse]

Easiest way around all this would have been just to have Cawl create an organ that lets existing chapters upgrade their Astartes to the Primaris variant. 

 

The thing is (and I say this with utmost respect because I fall into this camp) no has to use the new lore as a basis for their armies and here is why, we already have a precedent for historical gaming in 40k called the Horus Heresy.

Now I'm not saying here "Hey bud, you don't like the new stuff then go Heresy it's old and awesome!" what I am saying is that we have ten thousand years of history left mostly unexplored, that is a REALLY big playground to play around with. The Second Founding started with with 021.M31 and what I think of as the Seventh Age (because it goes up to the beginning of seventh edition) ends at 839.M41.

There is SO much there to play with, you can find so many little references about unexplained events to really go to town on and let your imagination run riot. Just look at the conversations and armies that have sprung up around tiny bits of unexplained information like the lost Legions or the Hrud.

 

Now having said that I am not saying you just ignore 8th edition rules because I honestly think the rules will be really good having been around for every edition but you can just use the new rules but set it in at any point in the timeline you want to. This is why I am going with the Seventh Age concept myself and will continue to love the game I grew up with. It's not a cop out or throwing my toys out of the pram it's embracing the existing lore just how we are supposed to.

[Wargamer]

Err... no. Space Marines are still Space Marines; it's the Primaris who are the Thunder Warriors. Only perfect. And with better gear.

See, the whole point about the Thunder Warriors was they were really good at what they did. It could be argued they were actually superior to Space Marines in terms of raw power and killing potential. But Space Marines were just a better army. Thunder Warriors were a sledgehammer, while Space Marines could be a scalpel. This is why they got the better gear, and why the Emperor made sure the Thunder Warriors died off but the Space Marines didn't.

I read an article which pointed out that no benefit should come without flaw, and Space Marines sure do have a lot of them. As well as the generic problem of it being so difficult to make them that there's less than one per planet in the Imperium, you have the Chapter-specific quirks; the ones who go bat-:cuss crazy in battle; the ones who will never fall back no matter how obvious it is they should; the ones who have mutated in some way. These flaws exist in part to offset the advantages - the crazy ones, or the mutated Marines are often really powerful in both lore and tabletop.

As the saying goes, the candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long. Except Primaris Marines aren't candles, they're electric torches hooked up to the mains.

 

Primaris Marines are superior in every way, and given superior wargear. The price they pay for these advantages are that they can be produced more quickly than ordinary... Marines... wait, what? That's not a downside! That's another advantage!

 

Oh, wait, maybe it's the fact they're super-rare because they've only just been created... except enough were created that there are already entire Chapters of them on top of the ones being seconded to existing Chapters.

 

In a setting where Space Marines constantly fear irreversible corruption of their Gene-Seed, where the Militarum Tempstus is running out of the essential brainwashing drugs needed for the creation of their soldiers, where some of the mightiest Forge Worlds have burned and taken with them the designs for the finest Imperial war machines, and where GW has hammered home time and again that every single force in the Imperium is on a knife edge, in waltzes a new type of Space Marine apparently made from the gene-seed of one of the missing Legions; the Thousand Sues. 

 

If Primaris Marines were Thunder Warriors 2.0 I would absolutely love them. I would love the idea that Guilliman has made these amazingly powerful warriors who are overclocked to the point where it's only a matter of time before they burn themselves out, or become dangerously psychotic, or some other calamity befalls them. Let them be a force that will shine across the heavens for decades, only to fade away just as quickly. Twice as bright as a regular Astartes, but with half the lifespan.

[Guest]

 

 

If Primaris Marines were Thunder Warriors 2.0 I would absolutely love them. I would love the idea that Guilliman has made these amazingly powerful warriors who are overclocked to the point where it's only a matter of time before they burn themselves out, or become dangerously psychotic, or some other calamity befalls them. Let them be a force that will shine across the heavens for decades, only to fade away just as quickly. Twice as bright as a regular Astartes, but with half the lifespan.

 

 

I can't wait to buy them...

 

Our introduction to them might not be the best but I am hopeful.... I am sick of being negative to GW after the period of Kirby grinding the company into the ground.

[Redtoof]

I go to the distinct impression from ready the little snippets of fluff we have so far that these new guys will definitely have their down sides (beating extra prone to mutations from the gene seed was heavily implied IIRC). I think short lived would be a good one - it would mean that most of the important characters and veterans would still be regular space marines, while the new guys fill in the role of front line grunts.

 

They could also turn out to be kind of brutish, crude, drone like or almost servitors. I could see them lacking the creativity and humanity that regular space marines still just about hold on to. This might explain their lack of options, perhaps they are trained to do only one thing (kill stuff), and they struggle to adapt to a new situation? I don't know, but I don't think it's fair to say they don't have a flaw, just because it has yet to be spelled out to us.

[jamesvalentine]

yeah this is just like those times Centurions replaced all devastator marines.

terminators replaced all tactical marines.

Sternguard replaced all scouts.

Vanguard replaced all assault marines

and land raiders replaced all rhinos.

 

after all why bother with the originals...right?

[MosesGunn]

Let's be honest, the modern incarnation of GW is still first and foremost a profit driven company. They have zero obligation to the fluff at all, as most of the setting's original creators have long since departed the company. They own the IP and can do anything they want to with it, even if it stomps all upon fans preexisting notions of what the setting is and should be.

 

I believe a few years ago Kirby compared them to Apple, which given that companies similar stance in updating their product line for the sake of planned obsolescence seems weirdly accurate. Primaris are simply the shift from the Iphone 6 to the 7, with the removal of the headphone jack, or the gutting of the MacBook Pro's USB capabilities. Moves that are most likely unnecessary for the consumer but provide an opportunity for growth for the company. Both the companies are well aware that their customer base will still by their new products, even if runs the risk of pissing off and losing the odd person here and there. Marines as a product line will probably not go away immediately, but unless the Primaris range is a New Coke level disaster, which given the largely positive reaction and hobbyists enjoyment of new shiny stuff is unlikely, GW will continue to push collectors to update their armies to the new Marine operating system.

 

Ultimately, if you believe that GW has the fandom's interest at heart and controls what you can and cannot do with it you will be disappointed with this move. While GW has done great strides to engage in the community, a company will never have your individual interests as a priority. I loved WFB possibly more than I do 40k, and while Sigmar was a kick in the teeth I still play 8th edition with a community of likeminded individuals. I'm not pissed off at GW as ultimately they have no bearing over my enjoyment of the hobby. You have control over what you do with your hobby, its your hard earned cash, and you can tailor make that experience to whatever you want it to be, even if the producers of it are trying to push things in a certain direction that you don't agree with.

[Walter Payton]

Let's be honest, the modern incarnation of GW is still first and foremost a profit driven company. 

 

"Modern incarnation"?  Has there ever been a time when this has not been true?  

 

Sure, there's a romance to the "old" GW when some of the lore and development very much had a "gentleman amateurs" feel, but ultimately GW has never not been a profit-driven machine.  Hell, the focus on WFB and WH40K post the 1991 management buyout by Bryan Ansell et al is itself an example - and I'm sure that some of the pre-1991 old guard viewed the fans of WH40K and WFB as ever so déclassé and tasteless.

 

As for the Primaris Marines - I'll reserve judgement until I see their full lore, but as it is I'm not impressed.  Nice models though, and there's always 30k. 

[jamesvalentine]

a miniature and wargaming company wanting to make money to stay in business?....MEIN GOTT UND HIMMEL!!!

 

thankfully companies like Warlord, mantic, hasslefree and battlefront etc never release models to make money and are funded entirely by happiness, rainbows and candy. and they pay taxes and rent and wages with these hopes and dreams...right guys?...........right?

[Commissar Molotov]

 

 

If they have any sense they'll reveal that the Dark and Cursed Foundings were offshoots of the Primaris project. There's a direction GW could have gone down that would make "but the cursed founding proved this was impossible so Primaris marines destroy setting consistancy" an okay argument but the idea that a failure from thousands of years ago would be the end of a ten millennia project doesn't make any sense. We already had the Badab War book's Minotaurs as an apparent perfection of the Cursed Founding.

 

 

 

Hi, thanks for this. This is a really plausible explanation for the Cursed and Dark Foundings. It's certainly added to my head canon! 

[MosesGunn]

 

Let's be honest, the modern incarnation of GW is still first and foremost a profit driven company. 

 

"Modern incarnation"?  Has there ever been a time when this has not been true?  

 

Sure, there's a romance to the "old" GW when some of the lore and development very much had a "gentleman amateurs" feel, but ultimately GW has never not been a profit-driven machine.  Hell, the focus on WFB and WH40K post the 1991 management buyout by Bryan Ansell et al is itself an example - and I'm sure that some of the pre-1991 old guard viewed the fans of WH40K and WFB as ever so déclassé and tasteless.

 

As for the Primaris Marines - I'll reserve judgement until I see their full lore, but as it is I'm not impressed.  Nice models though, and there's always 30k. 

 

 

Hahaha, very true mate, perhaps I was inclined to give the pre 2000s version of the company a little more credit due to nostalgia, but yes its has always been a business first. Ansell's buyout was before my time though, but it does seem like the more things change the more they stay the same!

[old git]

Opinion is obviously divided as to the introduction of Primaris marines. Personally I'm cautiously in favour of the models themselves regardless of their fluff but I'll have to see them in the plastic to be sure. One thought occurred to me though; for all those players who have issues with them, why not simply use them as 'traditional' marines at the size they've always meant to be. No more truescale conversions.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

In a setting where Space Marines constantly fear irreversible corruption of their Gene-Seed, where the Militarum Tempstus is running out of the essential brainwashing drugs needed for the creation of their soldiers, where some of the mightiest Forge Worlds have burned and taken with them the designs for the finest Imperial war machines, and where GW has hammered home time and again that every single force in the Imperium is on a knife edge,

 

 

 

Thing is, that's all been played up to beyond 11 over the last few years (hell, the "essential brainwashing drugs" thing was idiotic grimderp for the Stormtroopers in the first place). That 'knife edge' idea (while frustrating and infuriating, because it feels like the Imperial side never catches a break, leading to a major case of darkness induced audience apathy for some), worked for a static setting, that was the situation at time point X. But, when they decided to move the timeline forward, they had to mix it up a bit, otherwise they just pile on the 'Imperium screwed' until the setting ends because the Imperium inevitably falls. If '40k' was to continue as a story, something had to change to buck up the Imperium (or they could've had the bad guys fail, but we know that didn't happen).

 

Overall, the complaints about innovation and hope being injected I don't really get, what bothers me is that the story telling is just so bad. It reeks of Mary Sue, Deus ex Machina and scale-shrinking BS that just saps my enthusiasm (plus an even larger serving of 'IMperium's still totally screwed anyway'). So there's this guy Cawl, who we've never previously heard of, but is a 10,000 year old super genius, who manages to almost save Cadia, then bring Gulliman back (with a bit of help from another new 'author pet' type character), who leads them to Terra with the power of 'because the script says so', where it turns out the same Magos has also been developing an entire line of better Space Marines, completely with new, better wargear too? Is there anything he can't do? Why not have a couple of different Magos characters working together on different bits? But no, it's all Cawl. Is that kind of idiocy which makes 40k seem so small, like the shenanigans of a soap opera in a single country town, rather than the galactic scale the fluff used to seem to be aiming for.

 

So yeah, the idea of some positivity for the Imperium isn't a bad one, but it's the bad implementation that has me checking out. I'm increasingly at 'watch the trainwreck' as far as the story goes, and it's looking like my headcannon's stopping somewhere pre Warzone Damocles.

 

[SickSix]

yeah this is just like those times Centurions replaced all devastator marines.

terminators replaced all tactical marines.

Sternguard replaced all scouts.

Vanguard replaced all assault marines

and land raiders replaced all rhinos.

 

after all why bother with the originals...right?

The only one of those that even makes sense is your first example. In every other example you are comparing units that aren't even in the same FOC slot.

 

And everyone hanging on to the idea that Space Marines aren't going anywhere.... you are delusional. In the live stream they confirmed regular marines can be upgraded to Primaris status. GW just gave you their mechanism that will be used to phase out classic marine models.

[Ordo Machinum]

Yes, and then after all older space marine models are gone, GW will add to the fluff that the Primaris Space Marines had a genetic flaw, mutated, and died. But don't be alarmed, you can still use your Primaris models as NEW regular Space Marines! GW will sell new upgrade packs of Primaris-sized flamers, meltaguns, plasmaguns, and gravguns. Oh? You've already equipped your Primaris models with the regular Primaris weapons? Don't worry, new Primaris 'Classic' Space Marine kits will soon be available again (Primaris-sized, of course). 

 

The Great Wheel keeps on turning...

[dogfender]

Yes, and then after all older space marine models are gone, GW will add to the fluff that the Primaris Space Marines had a genetic flaw, mutated, and died. But don't be alarmed, you can still use your Primaris models as NEW regular Space Marines! GW will sell new upgrade packs of Primaris-sized flamers, meltaguns, plasmaguns, and gravguns. Oh? You've already equipped your Primaris models with the regular Primaris weapons? Don't worry, new Primaris 'Classic' Space Marine kits will soon be available again (Primaris-sized, of course). 

 

The Great Wheel keeps on turning...

Yup, seems pretty clear that this release is just the tip of the iceberg. It is like when the stormcast landed and options were missing, then the individual unit kits came out and kept coming out..

[Sugarlessllama]

I am not sold on the idea that Primaris Marines change everything. I think that they are a big deal, and will have a major impact on how Space Marine armies will be played going forward. But I don't think they are going to be replacing the regular model lines. Because if they were going to do that, they didn't have to do the lore the way they did. They could have just said "Cawl figured out how to mass produce astartes again. And since they were vat born, he made them a bit bigger." That bit of fluff would have gone over much better. And I think GW knows that.

 

How is this going to effect Space Marine collections going forward? I don't know.

[SickSix]

Dude, these are the new marines. Read my post above. They have given you the lore mechanism that justifies the cessation of the current marine line. Sure, they will keep the classic marine rules active for several years but the models will cease to be sold sometime in the next 3 years.

They wrote this awful lore as a way to justifiably keep selling all marine models and not be accused of 'squatting' the current marine line. Now they can transition the model replacement as the regular marines are replaced/upgraded to Primaris status in the lore.

[KiltedMarine]

I recognize the line of argument there, but I don't think we've seen enough of the complete picture to say anything either way with the 100% certainty you're expressing.  And calling the rest of us delusional is kind of condescending and rude, to be honest.

[SickSix]

I will now refer to it as 'unrealistically optimistic'.

 

Writing is on the wall. You just have to read it.

 

I can't fathom how anyone thinks GW is really planning on producing two completely different Marine line of models long term. That's just daft (for GW). Everything is pointing to up-scaling of marines; loyalist and otherwise. And thinking about it further, they could actually streamline the kits and reduce pieces. Look what we have seen. Specialist weapon squads. ***WARNING- PURE SPECULATION** They could now just sell a very simple Intercessor kit and if you want special weapons you have to by the Specialist squad box. And if they really want to be cheeky they could get away with just selling chapter conversion kits for a long time. Primaris are brand new. It could take a while for the big 4 to completely customize their new armor kits.

 

This is a golden opportunity for GW to reset the Marine line and reduce the number of unique kits they have to sell. We could see history repeat itself. GW sells some conversion kits for the big 3 that need them (DA, BA, SW) and then release one/two (dual kits) unique Primaris based unit for each down the road after they have let the regular marines and their models die off.

 

Everyone would be running vanilla Intercessors, specialist squads, the jumpsuit guys, and each 'Legion' would have one or two unique Primaris based units. Instead of basically selling unique version of every unit for each of the big 3.

 

It's good business for them. Streamlines the bloated marine line and gets people to replace their entire collections.

[BrotherAtrox]

I can't fathom how anyone thinks GW is really planning on producing two completely different Marine line of models long term. That's just daft (for GW). 

 

Quoting for emphasis. Barring overwhelming community outrage and poor sales, we're looking at the future of the Space Marine product line.