Primaris Space Marines change everything

[Grimtooth]

Frankly it would have been better for all of us, including GW, if they had just said, these are Space Marines from now on. Use your old models if you wish, to play. The new models would have been bought. The new units would have been used. Instead GW is jumping through hoops to try and juggle the upgrade versus new Primaris Faction all the while trying to kee them distinct factions.

[KiltedMarine]

::Starts really long rant::

 

::Realizes rant is ranty and redundant::

 

::Starts over::

 

Short form- I see the line of logic, and depending on what we see in the next 6 months ruleswise I'll change my tune.

 

Rescaling the models would have been fine by me; I'll be really angry if "Primaris" sticks around as a term because :cussing lazy cheap writing and abandonment of iconic aspect of the setting.

 

Still hopeful based on other parts of the picture that this is a less-insulting-to-our-intelligence situation fluffwise.

[jamesvalentine]

two lines of space marines would be stupid.

 

I mean that's like a company producing WWII german Infantry and SS infantry.

obviously you'd just go SS all day every day.

 

or producing French line infantry and French guard infantry.

duh stupid decision right?

 

......

[Xenith]

two lines of space marines would be stupid.

 

I mean that's like a company producing WWII german Infantry and SS infantry.

obviously you'd just go SS all day every day.

 

or producing French line infantry and French guard infantry.

duh stupid decision right?

 

......

Oh crap,better tell GW that the 10 lines of space marines they've been making for the last three decades is bad business!

 

Space marines (+UM)

Blood angels

Dark angels

Space wolves

Spiky marines

Thousand sons

Khorne berserkers

Plague marines

Noise marines

Heresy retro marines.

 

Now we can add primaris marines to that list.

[Robbienw]

He was being sarcastic :lol:

[appiah4]

 

two lines of space marines would be stupid.

 

I mean that's like a company producing WWII german Infantry and SS infantry.

obviously you'd just go SS all day every day.

 

or producing French line infantry and French guard infantry.

duh stupid decision right?

 

......

Oh crap,better tell GW that the 10 lines of space marines they've been making for the last three decades is bad business!

 

Space marines (+UM)

Blood angels

Dark angels

Space wolves

Spiky marines

Thousand sons

Khorne berserkers

Plague marines

Noise marines

Heresy retro marines.

 

Now we can add primaris marines to that list.

Sorry but thats the dumbest thing I read today and I read financial analysts all day..

 

They are not creating a second faction.

 

They are creating a second faction for EVERYTHING on your list.

 

Well. Except spiky marines. Because GW hates Chaos.

[Brother Casman]

I gotta say, I wouldn't be too surprised if the current Adeptus Astartes line did eventually get phased out in favour of the Primaris line. I can accept that - I even like the Primaris Marines! Plus, forewarned like this, I can actually complete a Space Marine army, and have all of the pieces I want for it. Just need to see how vehicle squadrons will work in the new edition. The Primaris Marines can be my new army going forward.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

Maybe the future of 40k is to move to era based expansions such as, Great Crusade/Horus Heresy era, Corpse Emperor era (not sure what it would really be called), and The Dark Imperium era. The production of miniatures and updated miniatures (example: Mk VIII) would be labeled in accordance to their era like we are seeing with things like the Mk III and Mk IV being labeled Horus Heresy.

 

A supplement could be sold for the "expansion" eras outside of The Dark Imperium era that have the "classic" space marines rules for that time frame. Maybe the Horus Heresy has proven profitable enough that this is something they are leaning towards.

[appiah4]

Maybe the future of 40k is to move to era based expansions such as, Great Crusade/Horus Heresy era, Corpse Emperor era (not sure what it would really be called), and The Dark Imperium era. The production of miniatures and updated miniatures (example: Mk VIII) would be labeled in accordance to their era like we are seeing with things like the Mk III and Mk IV being labeled Horus Heresy.

 

A supplement could be sold for the "expansion" eras outside of The Dark Imperium era that have the "classic" space marines rules for that time frame. Maybe the Horus Heresy has proven profitable enough that this is something they are leaning towards.

 

The more likely possibility is that the Corpse Emperor era will get the axe eventually a-la WFB Ye Olde Worlde, and we will be left with Primaris and Dark Imperium a-la Age of Sigmar and Sigmarines.  30K will likely remain its own thing, unless they decide they've sold it to the saturation point, whereby they will do the same thing and move that setting into the post-heresy crusade period.

[KiltedMarine]

 

Maybe the future of 40k is to move to era based expansions such as, Great Crusade/Horus Heresy era, Corpse Emperor era (not sure what it would really be called), and The Dark Imperium era. The production of miniatures and updated miniatures (example: Mk VIII) would be labeled in accordance to their era like we are seeing with things like the Mk III and Mk IV being labeled Horus Heresy.

 

A supplement could be sold for the "expansion" eras outside of The Dark Imperium era that have the "classic" space marines rules for that time frame. Maybe the Horus Heresy has proven profitable enough that this is something they are leaning towards.

 

The more likely possibility is that the Corpse Emperor era will get the axe eventually a-la WFB Ye Olde Worlde, and we will be left with Primaris and Dark Imperium a-la Age of Sigmar and Sigmarines.  30K will likely remain its own thing, unless they decide they've sold it to the saturation point, whereby they will do the same thing and move that setting into the post-heresy crusade period.

 

I'm not sure if I'd say it's *more* likely, but it's just as likely.  

 

I think an "eras of play" kind of setup would actually be a good way for GW to potentially expand their base while still keeping their current customers. Thinking about it, I think I would feel a real reason to start a completely different army in the "New Era of the Dark Imperium," while still expanding my "historical" Astartes to play in the "Era of the Emperor Enthroned."

 

We won't know for certain one way or another for months, at least.  I don't think the Era of the Emperor is as likely to get the axe as the Old World simply because the Old World had become a failing property.  If Old!Astartes keep selling and generating profit then GW will keep making them.  Squats got squatted at least in part because they were a niche army with relatively little following.  Unfortunately, as passionate as Sisters players are, there's a financial reason that we got Centurions rather than plastic Sisters.  

 

I will say that I'm thinking really hard about starting to buy a squad of Astartes with each paycheck in order to secure a supply of parts, should my own thesis be proven wrong...

[Grimtooth]

I would say that there might be a question as to the profitability of the standard Marine line that GW felt they needed to release not only a new Faction, but a NEW Marine Faction at that. Even being the long standing preeminent product line of GW has a shelf life and the financial analysts at GW see the writing in the wall much clearer than all of us players.

[Lexington]

I would say that there might be a question as to the profitability of the standard Marine line that GW felt they needed to release not only a new Faction, but a NEW Marine Faction at that. Even being the long standing preeminent product line of GW has a shelf life and the financial analysts at GW see the writing in the wall much clearer than all of us players.

The Marine line itself is probably still plenty profitable, I imagine. It's 40K as a whole that's been on a slow but notable decline for some years, and I'm fairly sure GW's thought is that a new version of what is by far their most popular design will go a long way towards reviving it. Their moves to reinvigorate the game have succeeded pretty unambiguously of late, though I get the feeling that the inevitable crash that'll follow (they always do, eventually) is going to be bigger than some people think. They run on almost 100% "new! buy now!"-type hype now, and that's going to give way to some major fatigue sooner or later.

[KBA]

I'm at such a crossroads with GW. Once the HH has ended and my Sons of Horus are complete, I don't know what's in store for me. Usually when I feel GW goes off the rails, it's with fluff that I can largely ignore. Now, that zany fluff is built into the new space marine range that looks like it -- despite GWs best effort to deny it -- will eventually replace the old line.

 

Honestly, I would have just preferred them to release rescaled VI, VII, and VIII armored marks and vehicles like they have done in the past. I think I would have actually been really excited about that despite it instantly relic'ing my current models.

 

I love this hobby, specifically what GW has offered with their paracosm, but can't bring myself to dig this new jumping on point with the primaris. Future model support for an army that I'm interested in is huge, and with there being potentially no further old-marine releases I feel I'll have to look elsewhere. Starting Xenos would have been likely if this forum, which plays a huge part in my hobby experience, allowed them. That leaves Imperial Knights, Guard, Titans and the rest. And that's not so bad, I just never imagined leaving the big old boys in the armor behind...

[StraightSilver]

In terms of whether or not the current Space Marine line is profitable or not - I don't know (although I would imagine it is and always has been, it's their core selling product).

In terms of whether or not it's a good business decision? As far as I can tell absolutely.

My "evidence" is purely anecdotal but:

I have over 100 Ultramarines built and painted (for the most part). I have about another 100 unbuilt marines plus associated tanks etc. I have absolutely no need to ever, ever, buy another Space Marine as long as I live....

But GW know what we're like - and I have now set aside £200 to spend on Primaris Marines straight off the bat, and that's without seeing the new Dreadnought and vehicles that apparently are coming.

I just love the new models. I don't need them, didn't think I'd want them but GW have just got money out of me for something I thought I'd never buy.

Yes that probably makes me an idiot, and I'm sad that my Ultras that I have been painting for the last 8 years are probably gonna be phased out, but at least they are not being "squatted" and the new models are (in my opinion) superior.

I know not everybody agrees, but as long as they don't retcon the Horus Heresy line I think people that don't want nu-marines can stil lcarry on using their old ones.

[frostclaw222]

From a fluff standpoint, let's bear in mind the following:

 

1) Beli Cawl has been working this Primaris thing for ten thousand years.

2) He's old enough that he might have actually been part of the original primarch and/or early Astartes projects. 

3) Prior to the conquest of Luna and the selenar genecults, the Emperor had issues with large-scale mass production of Astartes. Bringing the lunar cults to heel got him the tech to go from "small batch" Astartes to mass production.

4) It could be that the small batch Astartes process did in fact produce a superior end product, but the mass production method produced so many more slightly inferior iterations that that process was preferred, as it would've taken the Emperor a millennium to produce sufficient numbers via small batch, pre-Luna method to mount the Great Crusade. 

5) The fact that this Primaris project is producing slightly larger Astartes-style posthumans, and that their organizational approach is (at least as we've seen it to date) reminiscent of the Crusade era Legion organizational patterns and the fact that they're simply slightly better than present day M41 Astartes (who've been experiencing geneseed degradation and technological regression for ten millennia) could actually just indicate that these are the small batch, Terran recipe Astartes come back again, slightly modified. 

 

From a fluff perspective, I'm wondering a few things:

 

1) If these are purer and enhanced iterations of the Astartes project using tithed geneseed from the Terran and Martian gene-vaults, will these Primaris exhibit present-day defects experienced by the old legions and their successors? For instance, will the ones sent off to Baal with Sanguinius's template fall prey to Red Thirst and Black Rage? While the Emperor obviously had a way to work around the Canis Helix in the early days of the Crusade, does that mean the Primaris marines sent to Fenris will be immune to the Curse of the Wulfen? 

2) Since we're being told that the Primaris process can be used to "upgrade" existing Astartes, are we about to see some established characters from the fluff submit themselves for the modification? Or is there suspicion/resistance to this idea? 

3) If this process can produce a good number of Primaris marines (enough to send multiple units to most chapters and still build a few chapters of wholly Primaris marines), how does it compare to the present-day Astartes process in terms of efficiency and quantity? 

 

As for whether we're looking at the beginning of the end for the standard space marine kits...I can see the argument, but I don't think it's coming in the next 3-5 years. Let's take the "GW is out for profits" pat statement and run with it:

 

Every time GW sells a Rhino or Phobos Land Raider, they're basically sucking in a huge amount of profit. The mold has been paid for long, long ago; the cost to produce that kit now is just the price of the plastic, the packaging, and the shipping. Plus they're iconic. I don't see them going away. I also don't see the Primaris marine slowly phasing out the main marine lines without serious reduction to the variance of the codex divergent chapters. Or are we going to start seeing Primaris Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry? Sanguinary Primaris Guard? 

 

Don't get me wrong. I can see plastic Astartes starting to creep in size slightly, much as it appears the Death Guard kits about to drop seem to be doing. But that's happened at least once, maybe twice, since I joined the game in third edition. But I don't think we'll see some huge kit-pull from GW to shift everyone to Primaris scale in the next three to five years. Ten years down the road? Maybe. But I don't think even then it'll be something guaranteed. But, in ten years, we'll most likely be buying STL files and printing the damn things at home, anyhow, right? 

[Machine God]

From a fluff standpoint, let's bear in mind the following:

 

1) Beli Cawl has been working this Primaris thing for ten thousand years.

 

5) The fact that this Primaris project is producing slightly larger Astartes-style posthumans, and that their organizational approach is (at least as we've seen it to date) reminiscent of the Crusade era Legion organizational patterns and the fact that they're simply slightly better than present day M41 Astartes (who've been experiencing geneseed degradation and technological regression for ten millennia) could actually just indicate that these are the small batch, Terran recipe Astartes come back again, slightly modified. 

 

@frostclaw222 - Nice explanation of your thoughts.

 

So if Cawl has been working on this for 10000 years on Mars,how come he's managed to hold on to the data for all that time and not be involved in the Martian Revolt, or any schisms, Moirae or otherwiise?

Just too special snowflake to me.

[frostclaw222]

SoF, I'd assume that, since he was Regent and First High Lord at the time he handed him the task, Roboute pulled a Malcador, and handed him a shedload of gear, data, and staff, marked off a part of Mars that was under reconstruction as a "no-go" zone, and told Cawl to fortify the heck out of it and stay put until he had something to show for it. We know from the deal Horus struck with Khelbor Hal that there were ways of "locking off" sections of Martian tech vaults that the Emperor could implement. We also know that primarchs could at the least circumvent it, but might also be able to implement it themselves, particularly if they're acting as, say, Warmaster or Regent. 

 

Let's also bear in mind that since the Heresy, Mars has been pretty dang stable, aside from the schismatic bickering as to whether the Emperor is or is not truly the Omnissiah. And while that can sometimes cause a distant forge world to descend into conflict, it seems that, based on Titanicus and other fluff, the Fabricator General on Mars pretty much sequestered any data that would bring that question into an actual conflict between Mechanicus forces. I imagine the first new Fabricator General on Mars after the Heresy pretty much had a few things explained to him, such as there will never be another civil war ever again, so get this ommnissiah stuff straight and by the way, there's this guy who's in region x that you should never pester and always let him have what he wants out of the gene vaults.

 

Why would RG keep all this stuff secret? Simple. The guy didn't trust anybody anymore. Half his own brothers went rogue, two of them wrecking his own little corner of the galaxy and killing over two hundred thousand of his kids in a single battle. Another offed Dad. The normal humans and the Martians split right down the middle, too, and the intrigues at the palace drove Dorn nuts, so we can only imagine what RG thought of that. 

 

Everything RG did post-heresy, including this Primaris project makes perfect sense if you look at it with one thought firmly in mind: I don't trust anyone else to not take us right back to the Heresy.

 

Look at the Codex Astartes, for instance. At the close of the Heresy and Scouring, the Ultramarines were still the biggest loyalist legion in the Imperium. By breaking the legions, RG ensured several things: 

 

1) Since every chapter would receive its own support, his kids wouldn't and couldn't be wiped out by one huge threat (like a hivefleet).

2) None of his brothers would ever have a legion at strength at their command again. 

3) His own children were scattered across the galaxy in chapter-sized pockets, almost quick reaction forces for later in the game. 

4) By spinning the legions off into chapters, RG ensured future numerical superiority by dividing his forces. 

 

That all sounds sneaky and underhanded if you look at it as RG trying to screw his brothers over. But if you look at it as he must've been at the end of the Heresy (and had most definitely been during Imperium Secundus), the defense and long-term viability of the Imperium relied upon his strategies. 

 

Even Dorn, who he trusted enough to appoint to the head of the Scouring and allowed to keep the Phalanx in orbit over Terra, had his legion broken. Now, whether that was because he didn't even trust Dorn that much or wanted Dorn's kids spread out across the Imperium as well is open to conjecture. 

 

The other legions were so badly mauled that RG probably wasn't too surprised that his kids made up nearly seven-tenths of the chapters out there ten thousand years later. 

 

Now, the real question was "Why now?" Did Cawl receive some sort of contingency plan that, if RG was taken off the board (as he was), to only unveil the Primaris project if/when certain criteria was met, such as, say, the fall of Cadia? 

 

And, RG didn't see himself getting shoved into a stasis field for however long, so the new life support armor is something done on Cawl's own initiative. That part wasn't in the plan, but I imagine Cawl started that project perhaps as a potential solution for the restoration of the Emperor, then realized that the Emperor was too far gone, and began trying to make it work for RG at some point after his wounding. I mean, if you were RG right after the Emperor ascended the Throne for-keepsies, I'd imagine you'd put a few magi to work on finding a way to let Dad climb back down off the chair at some point, right? 

 

I don't think Cawl did all this on his own, either. I'd imagine there's a whole bunch of priests and magi who operated under Cawl all these years, and that he's just project lead. So, while it seems he's a bit Mary-Sue, I think it's just because we haven't gone to Mars and seen everything for ourselves. The development teams, of course, may have been killed or wiped at some point after project completion, however. You wouldn't want this sort of stuff falling into Abaddon's hands, after all. 

[frostclaw222]

As for how Cawl survived the schism on Mars during the Heresy, when Khelbor Hal turned to side with Horus: 

 

Simple. He was on Terra at the time. Probably working on either the Custodes or the Throne projects. Either one would put him in a good position to get the knowledge he needs; being attached to both would pretty much make him the go-to guy. 

 

And then he wouldn't have been on Mars when it switched sides early on in the Heresy. And wouldn't have been there when Dorn (we assume, since he's stated this is his desire, and only hasn't because the Sigilite won't let him) nuked the entire planet at some point in the late Heresy or very early Scouring. 

[SickSix]

I am VERY interested to see what they do with BA, DA and SW. I mean does anyone really see the SW taking to this very well?

[The Unseen]

I am VERY interested to see what they do with BA, DA and SW. I mean does anyone really see the SW taking to this very well?

Well, since every non-Ultramarine successor chapter appears to be getting gutted, and Gman saving the day every time, I'm sure they'll go along with it.

[DuskRaider]

From what I understand, one of the main reasons they did this was because a lot of the folks who work in the company and now have a say in what's going on have always been put off by the issue of scale in the game. Imperial Guard soldiers aren't supposed to be roughly the same height as an Astartes, they're supposed to be dwarfed. Now there's two ways they could have done it: they could have told everyone that the scale of the base Marine was going to jump up drastically overnight and you could keep playing with your out of scale models but they would no longer be supported, or they would create a new sub-force for your Chapters that could either be used alongside your existing Marines, as a Chapter entirely on their own, or even as true scale Marines in the setting. 

 

Quite frankly I'm a bit disappointed by a lot of the nay saying, especially when I see it from people who also seem to hold the hobby aspect above the game play similar to myself. If anything, this is an amazing modelling potential and brings a better sense of the background to the table. Yeah, the fluff used to push them in has been a bit hamfisted, but give GW a chance... or at least the models. Nobody says you have to play to their story line, you have 10,000 years to delve into. 

[jamesvalentine]

glad somebody noticed I was being sarcastic...

 

or was I?..........

 

yeah I was...I'd never be serious talking to 40k players...too much sky falling

[Malios]

If miniature ranges from 40k start disappearing, or changing from how they are now, I will not entirely be surprised or bothered.

 

Although not a complete reset like Age of Sigmar was, AoS proved a few things:

 

* That initially, GW were happy to release rules for current model ranges

 

* That eventually, these ranges will change from as we know them now into something new.

 

* That eventually, these older ranges will be put as direct online-order from GW only in favour of "new" factions that are more fitting to the "new setting" (ie the market which the company wishes to sell their miniatures for) such as Primaris Marines.

 

* That eventually, GW are not afraid to remove entire lines of stock if they don't sell well or match their market's direction (ie what happened to the Bretonnians and the older Empire kits. I predict that the older Orc and Goblin kits are also on a finite lifespan now that the Ironjaws and Bonecrushas are the new go-to standard. The Slaves to Darkness and Bray Herds model ranges will also be on thin ice once Nurgle and Slaanesh have their turn at getting Battletomes)

 

 

As I said though, 8th Edition 40k is not a complete reset like Age of Sigmar was so I have no doubt that the implementation and changes will not be so drastic. However, GW have proven that they are capable of such... and are not afraid to go through with it.

 

I am prepared to accept that we are seeing the future of the marines line and that, eventually the old will go direct-online for a time before becoming history. The same will eventually happen to the Eldar and the others.

 

If it doesn't happen? Great: we all keep our ranges and our armies. However, I've accepted that it can happen: GW have done it before.

 

For the record however: I like the look of the Primaris Marines. I think their increased scale does them justice.

[eyeslikethunder]

I am VERY interested to see what they do with BA, DA and SW. I mean does anyone really see the SW taking to this very well?

Why the space wolves tried to modify their own DNA and create successor chapters so they might be more receptive then you think plus Gulliman represents an heroic golden imperium POV rather than the oppressive religious fanatical one the Wolves regularly rail against

Plus gulliman relises he made mistakes in the codex Astartes and is trying to work around rules he set down

[roryokane]

The new book "Dark Millenium" answers a lot of the questions brought up in this thread.