DW viable in 8th

[twopounder]

This rule helps limit some of the more extreme cases of withholding reserves in competitive games. So, while it’s totally possible to have an all Deathwing Terminator army, for example, you can’t use the teleport rules on all of them in matched play. (Though we do think a narrative game where the entire Deathwing teleports in on the first turn to take a Chaos bastion would be pretty awesome.)

 

This is from the release about reserves. They called out specifically an all terminator Deathwing army. I don't think 50% minimum on the table is too much to ask for to get pure Deathwing back. If anything, it makes a lot more sense. 

 

[Epher]

I would agree! It would seem that I should break out the Ushabti Bone paint again!

[Brother Syddraf]

I would agree! It would seem that I should break out the Ushabti Bone paint again!

Done, Done and Done

[shandwen]

Woot. Good news with the appearant lack of scatter and the option to bring them all in deep strike they should do marvelously.

 

On a separate note with so many new armies abbreviations are becoming a nightmare. I try to keep up with Dark Angels, but thought this was a tread about DeathWatch.

[twopounder]

Woot. Good news with the appearant lack of scatter and the option to bring them all in deep strike they should do marvelously.

 

On a separate note with so many new armies abbreviations are becoming a nightmare. I try to keep up with Dark Angels, but thought this was a tread about DeathWatch.

 

While we appreciate the Deathwatch's hatred of xenos filth, they tread too close to the inquisition for us to celebrate them here.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Good news for DW. 50% of them on the grounds sounds good for Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts! ;)

[Raztalin]

Oh happy days!!!  This is the news I've been waiting for; now my 100+ TDA can get an airing along with the 4 Land Raiders and countless Dreads.  

 

8th simply cant come quick enough!

[ShadowCore67]

I'm curious as to if they will keep any of their rules/cooperation with ravenwing.

 

Will they still have TL the turn they deepstrike? With scatter apparently going away, will they get some sort of other buff for deepstriking near ravenwing?

 

I'm curious to see how they work together.

[FlamingDeth]

If mech deathwing actually becomes viable I will be super happy. Anything else is gravy.

[Frater Cornelius]

If mech deathwing actually becomes viable I will be super happy. Anything else is gravy.

 

Well, you heard what they said about Land Raiders. These boys will make a big comeback in 8th, I am sure of it. Combined with the transport rules that just leaked, I am confident you will be able to run that DW army ;)

[FlamingDeth]

Well, we'll still have to see how it works. I'm thinking if the assault ramp rule works something like "lets the passengers disembark directly into combat with a unit that the land raider has just charged" that would be badass and thematic.

[Master Sheol]

According to the preview article you disembark from a transport before the movement phase and then you have to move and charge by foot (terminators move 5")

It could be that Assault transports let you disembark AFTER the movement of the transport and you can still charge so you benefit from the bigger transport movement (i can see a LR moving 8" easily)

 

If it's not the case and the LR is just a badass rhino who can carry TDA i want a point reduction to 200 points ;)

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

Oooh and Frag Assault Launchers are probably going to move to actual damage causing weapons judging by what we've seen of grenades so far. I'm pumped.

[PhilB]

I'm hoping the old school assault vehicles (be it from assault ramps or open topped etc) will allow a reroll of or add a bonus to the charge distance roll if you charge the turn you disembarked. Probably not going to happen though.

[Conine]

Thoughts on Deathwing now that the books are out.

 

Which HQs to take?

The named characters seem like some good points buys vs the generic now.

Belial for shooty squads which with the assault cannon will be dangerous as the mathhammer from another post shows.

Azrael is another choice for the same squads but he has to footslog or get a ride.

Then there is Asmodai who with a squad of DW Knights and a DW Champ would be pretty cool.

 

My other main question is what anti-tank to pair with DW?

Land speeders got more expensive so its tough to spam them like you use to be able to do. 

Maybe take a Land Raider instead of the Crusader now that deepstrike isn't as random and dangerous. Four Lascannon shots on something that hard to kill might be interesting plus it is going to draw a ton of fire.

Razorbacks with lascannons are about the cheapest option.

Dreads with lascannons maybe but they no longer can use the drop pod.

The Dark Talon is a possibility now that flyers can shoot at anything since facing doesn't matter.

 

What are your thoughts?

[Kewl Imp]

The characters can't attach but from my games with my ravenwing this weekend, that six inch bubble helps out so much. It pretty much made most of my army twinlinked throughout the games.

[Ezzeran]

Thoughts on Deathwing now that the books are out.

 

Which HQs to take?

The named characters seem like some good points buys vs the generic now.

Belial for shooty squads which with the assault cannon will be dangerous as the mathhammer from another post shows.

Azrael is another choice for the same squads but he has to footslog or get a ride.

Then there is Asmodai who with a squad of DW Knights and a DW Champ would be pretty cool.

 

My other main question is what anti-tank to pair with DW?

Land speeders got more expensive so its tough to spam them like you use to be able to do. 

Maybe take a Land Raider instead of the Crusader now that deepstrike isn't as random and dangerous. Four Lascannon shots on something that hard to kill might be interesting plus it is going to draw a ton of fire.

Razorbacks with lascannons are about the cheapest option.

Dreads with lascannons maybe but they no longer can use the drop pod.

The Dark Talon is a possibility now that flyers can shoot at anything since facing doesn't matter.

 

What are your thoughts?

I'm planning a more in depth analysis, but initial thoughts are that Belial is too good to pass up. Deathwing need to maximize every shot. Also 2 HQ's will likely be necessary, because it's too easy to fill one Vanguard detachment in pure Deathwing. The next logical choice is a Librarian, and as you pointed out the named characters are very good, therefore Ezekiel seems a good pick. This edition it seems unwise to pass up an entire phase of a turn by not taking a Librarian.

 

I'm not sold on Chaplains as of yet, in any form.

 

For AT, I think we'll see a mix of ven dreads and land raiders in pure DW. My money is on Mortis dreads making a comeback. Dual-twin-autocannons seems like a great all around choice this edition, and can also benefit from Belial.

 

Ezz

[Kewl Imp]

I think librarians are a necessity and would give them a roster spot first, but maybe I just do really well with the interrogator chaplains. I rarely have them fail me, except when one charged a imperial knight, one of three, in a tournament game a couple of years ago.

[Saphrael]

My first 8th game with DA will be against orks and will contain the following DW contingent:

 

• Belial
• Asmodai
• DW Ancient
• 1 x 2 x twin autocannon venerable dread
• 2 x 5 termie squad with 1 x CML, 1 x CF, 1 x TH/SS sarg
• 1 x 5 DWKs
• 1 x Land Raider Crusader

• Asmodai and the DW Ancient hop into the LRC with the DWKs. They bolt up field and wreck face with +2 A and RR hits in Fight phase with 3+ S8 D3 weapons 
• Venerable dread sits backfield and strips wounds off of light - medium vehicles
• Belial deep strikes in with 2 x termie squads to annihilate infantry with 32 RR to hit storm bolter shots, to say nothing of the CMLs

I also will have a RW contingent, but that's not relevant to this thread.

[Ezzeran]

My first 8th game with DA will be against orks and will contain the following DW contingent:

 

 

• Belial
• Asmodai
• DW Ancient
• 1 x 2 x twin autocannon venerable dread
• 2 x 5 termie squad with 1 x CML, 1 x CF, 1 x TH/SS sarg
• 1 x 5 DWKs
• 1 x Land Raider Crusader

• Asmodai and the DW Ancient hop into the LRC with the DWKs. They bolt up field and wreck face with +2 A and RR hits in Fight phase with 3+ S8 D3 weapons 
• Venerable dread sits backfield and strips wounds off of light - medium vehicles
• Belial deep strikes in with 2 x termie squads to annihilate infantry with 32 RR to hit storm bolter shots, to say nothing of the CMLs

I also will have a RW contingent, but that's not relevant to this thread.

Would be very interested to hear how it goes! Especially the ven dread performance.

 

Ezz

[shabbadoo]

I'm curious as to if they will keep any of their rules/cooperation with ravenwing.

 

Will they still have TL the turn they deepstrike? With scatter apparently going away, will they get some sort of other buff for deepstriking near ravenwing?

 

I'm curious to see how they work together.

I would rather that each has their own rules that work all of the time for themselves, regardless of what else (if anything) is present in the army, but that may also have an application in a mixed force. Anything that has a rule application that doesn't work with its own units should be optional, like teleport homers. Don't make me pay points for something that will not be used unless a particular element is present, because the RW do not ALWAYS operate in conjunction with the DW! They took out the free lunches that formations gave, which I am completely in favor of, but they also need to get rid of any force-feeding of garbage too.  Call it a comm array instead of a teleport homer, such that it does one thing when used one way, or is a teleport homer when use the other way, but you can not use it both ways. Then it only ever does one thing and it is worth its points no matter what is in your army.

 

But neither has any synergistic rules any more - teleport homers were the main thing, but are gone as they are no longer required. They could change that in the actual codex though, whenever they get around to writing.  The best way to represent it may be to incorporate their potential cooperation into some form of unique Dark Angels Command Point option instead of tying it to a forced unit points payment.

[Elios Harg]

With the combination of changes to overwatch and charging after teleport strike, Deathwing Terminators seem to have some nice punch. You can arrange your terminators for minimal risk charge attempts by putting them near the thinner edges of units meaning you can get pretty risk free charges with most of the opposing unit's firepower out of rapid firing ranges and pesky things like heavy flamers and flamers never have enough range for overwatch against deep striking terminators. On the other hand, you can put them on side closest to special/heavy weapons or sergeants and force the opponent to choose between allowing a potential charge or removing key models to prevent it. I would avoid this with things like grav and plasma when possible, but longer ranged weapons are usually going to get to shoot anyway, so why not? Another thing to note is that charging at a unit that you shot at is no longer required, so you can poor fire into one unit (or multiple units) then charge a completely different one.

 

 

Also, teleport sniping of characters will definitely be a thing. 

 

It feels like stormbolter terminator squads are actually worth fielding again. In fact, they may be more efficient than fielding close combat loadouts now. Teleporting into cover conveys no risk and does not hinder movement, only woods and craters actually slow charge movement, ruins do not. Yet, each of these provide cover to terminators mitigating the need for using storm shields. If you teleport into a ruin to attack a unit nearby, you can benefit from having a 4+ armor save against even plasma shots and still charge with no penalty. However, this means your entire squad must be in the ruin which might make for a longer charge. On the other hand, we can now sprinkle a TH/SS into each of our squads again and only use him to soak good AP shots. However, this sacrifices a decent amount of firepower since storm bolters are actually decent now. Another thing worth noting is that lightning claw terminators are fairly inexpensive now. A unit with 4 lightning claws and an assault cannon or 3 lightning claws, a TH/SS, and an assault cannon might be worth fielding. However, I would almost never field a purely close combat Deathwing Terminator squad (i.e. without a heavy weapon). Five Deathwing Knights are cheaper than the above mention claw/heavy mix and only 6 points per model more expensive than lightning claws. However, the maces and flail are just flat out better weapons than the claws. Also, they are a bargain compared to a 5 TH/SS unit, trading 1 AP for +1 to hit on the maces and the 2-for-1 model killing of the flail against single wound models all at a 30 point discount for the unit. The only reason to take Terminators over Knights is for the shootiness, so definitely put at least a heavy weapon in every squad.

 

Amusing note: If anyone wants to rules lawyer our melee/CML combos, I would be quick to point out that technically our data sheet allows one terminator to take a plasma cannon or a weapon from the heavy weapons list as an additional weapon, so that means we can have a model with a storm bolter, power fist and plasma cannon (or TH/SS + plasma or claws + plasma assuming that there is still no sequence in buying weapons, like before, meaning we can buy the TH/SS or claws then add plasma). If they don't fix that and/or the CML thing in an FAQ or when the codex hits, then I'm going to convert up some plasma cannon guys with storm bolters on slings; how they fire both is unimportant, but RAW they can! In fact, rather than taking CML + melee like before, we actually should be able to take melee then add a CML AND stormbolter or take melee and add an assault cannon. Our CML terminators are dual wielding storm bolters with their CML.

[Saphrael]

you can get pretty risk free charges with most of the opposing unit's firepower out of rapid firing ranges and pesky things like heavy flamers and flamers 

That's very much a 7th ed. interpretation mate, I don't think that's how it works in 8th. Granted, I haven't read the rules cover to cover yet, but what I've seen doesn't indicate that shooting works on a 'per model' basis any more, rather it works on a 'per unit' basis. So if one model is in rapid fire range, then all can rapid fire.

 

For reference, I've selected the following from the "2. Choose Targets" portion of the Shooting phase rules on pp. 179, emphasis mine:

 

"In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listen on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model."

 

The 'a model' could mean 'the particular shooting model' or it could suggest that only a single model is required to be in range. Now, the 'be visible to the shooting model' suggests that model by model considerations are made, but I'm not sure it's clear. The simplicity ethos that GW has taken makes me think that they want it worked out at the unit level, even if it's different to how things work now and definitely favouring the offense. 

 

Happy to be proven wrong with rules references, just is just my initial impression.

[Elios Harg]

 

you can get pretty risk free charges with most of the opposing unit's firepower out of rapid firing ranges and pesky things like heavy flamers and flamers 

That's very much a 7th ed. interpretation mate, I don't think that's how it works in 8th. Granted, I haven't read the rules cover to cover yet, but what I've seen doesn't indicate that shooting works on a 'per model' basis any more, rather it works on a 'per unit' basis. So if one model is in rapid fire range, then all can rapid fire.

 

For reference, I've selected the following from the "2. Choose Targets" portion of the Shooting phase rules on pp. 179, emphasis mine:

 

"In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listen on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model."

 

The 'a model' could mean 'the particular shooting model' or it could suggest that only a single model is required to be in range. Now, the 'be visible to the shooting model' suggests that model by model considerations are made, but I'm not sure it's clear. The simplicity ethos that GW has taken makes me think that they want it worked out at the unit level, even if it's different to how things work now and definitely favouring the offense. 

 

Happy to be proven wrong with rules references, just is just my initial impression.

 

The passage you quote is entirely referencing the target unit: "In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit (emphasis mine), must be within the Range of the weapon being used..." Here "that unit" is referring to the enemy unit as we have already dealt with selecting our shooting unit beforehand. Then under Rapid Fire on the next page: "A model firing a Rapid Fire weapon doubles the number of attacks it makes if its target is within half the weapon's maximum range." So this, indeed, shows that rapid fire is on a per model basis for the shooting unit. The overwatch model only needs 1 charging model in range to fire his overwatch, but you can prevent large, spread out units from being able to rapid fire with everything. Granted, lack of templates and blasts means that units are free to bunch up to counter this tactic, but that means more space for teleport striking in. 

[SnakeChisler]

Did a demo game at the GW store and shooting is on a model by model basis giving you unlimited split fire with your opponent able to remove any model he wishes as casulties.

 

If your Deep Striking you don't want to shoot at what you intend to charge as it allows your opponent the chance to make it > 9

 

Aside from unit coherency you can string your guys out as much as you want on DS

 

Ex drop in front of a Tau battle line hose down all the markers and fire warriors multi charge the big stuff