Looking at Primaris with an open mind

[Julgolax]

As I do my best to eschew the discrimination towards Matt Ward's Spiritual Liege-fetish and GW's ever growing fascination with mangling established lore for profit... I do see the value for new and returning players to make something that can arguably fit into the lore AND make sense on the table top. These are NOT the 10th generation of remnants of the legions that split into chapters 10 millennia ago. These men have been created by the returned Primarch, genetic prodigy of the Emperor himself, to fulfill an impossible purpose. Where the descendants who have fought and died for over 10,000 years to ensure the Imperium survives, the Primaris brethren will lead the charge to attack our enemies.

 

Now, I know and feel the frustration many feel towards GW for basically shoe-horning in all this hopelight into our grimdark, this new lore into our established lore, and these obviously truescale-esque minis in to replace the current range in time. That said, we all know what kind of company we're buying from. It's a business and they want to make as much profit as possible. In turn, we do get miniatures that have perhaps the industry's top standard in detail and material quality. And while the rules ARE balanced to make profit by showcasing the power of their new products, like the Primaris Marines, they do sometimes dial things back in their FAQ and e-codex data. Besides, if there's something that you don't like, I always say fix it or impose limits. :)

 

On a personal note, I'm actually getting into the idea of a very small, very new, very elite chapter that's making it's debut in a trial by fire against the worst the Dark Imperium faces. The Scythes of the Emperor are NO DOUBT going to make a return which is thumbs up for me and I'm really looking forward to making my own Primaris Chapter because, well, we CAN! Plus there's pretty cool scenarios, I think, for old chapters to turn traitor in defiance of this insult to their honor and deeds or be renewed and seek out even greater honor and new glories. For new chapters to rise, and old traitors to finally meet their deserved end! I have no doubt that the Sinister Seven will stick around but perhaps evolve into new enemies. I for one REALLY want to see a revival in Fabius Bile and to see a sub-faction in Chaos that has their own version of Primaris-level traitor marines. Perhaps Cawl and Guilliman aren't the only ones who've perfected a new kind of super warrior...

 

I have in mind my own Primaris Chapter and I can't wait to get them built, painted and on the table crushing Xenos and Heretic alike!

[Julgolax]

Your thoughts?

[deathspectersgt7]

So far the fluff coming out of this sucks . I will wait and see how they handle it with proven writers .Gaming wise I am out but will stay with SW,Kill team and any other small tactical rules are out there . Model wise I look forward to painting some up in some of the 72 chapters I have .

[Space Truckin]

The models look great.  At first glance really really liked the bolt rifles, however when thinking about it - making them longer isn't really an improvement especially when fighting boarding actions in close quarters.  

 

Bottom line wish they would of just made it a new armor mark instead.   They totally blew it with this Wardian fantasy crap.  The direction of the fluff behind this pretty much kills the setting for me.    I'll be sticking with SW and small skirmish games,  building the odd model here and but as far as the fluff goes - this is my last stop.   Simply put this edition is geared to target  a younger generation which is fair enough.

 

Someone else put it on here perfectly by saying - I always thought I'd out grow 40k but 40k out grew me.  

[Doghouse]

I'm much more on board with them now that they have said that existing Astartes can be upgraded to Primaris in the lore. The sore point for me right now though is the fate of the Mk2-Mk8 armour sets. Space Marines are steeped in their own mythology within their Chapters, items that ten thousand years before would been seen only military equipment are now revered as holy relics. The whole Primarch in the 40k setting doesn't gel well with me either which doesn't help, it's like getting a time machine and dropping Bill Gates or Steve Job in the Dark Ages, 30k and 40k are not compatible sets of ideology.

 

To be short I think the new lore really, really, really sucks but can still be saved. I think once we get more information (drip feeding REALLY not helping GW...) we'll have a clearer picture of what is going on. I want to embrace these new marines but vat grown soldiers have no where near the appeal of hardened space marine warriors.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not on board simply because my models are expensive enough and this is the first step of a phase out of the product line and replacement for new, bigger and likely more expensive models.

 

If GW still release Space Marines models and differentiate them to Primaris in play and role, then I'm happy.

 

I just doubt this will happen. We'll probably never see new Space Marine models again.

[No Foes Remain]

I like the new models but I won't be getting any as none of my own armies would have them, epecially not my Astral Claws so I guess I'm going to have to hope that GW keep doing plastic early armour marks and use them instead if not and they kill off the current line... I guess no more models for me then. And as others have said the lore for it is a bit 'meh' with them and the tidbit of current space marines being able to upgrade just seems to be added in to serve as a community booster.

[sturguard]

The models look great.  At first glance really really liked the bolt rifles, however when thinking about it - making them longer isn't really an improvement especially when fighting boarding actions in close quarters.  

 

Bottom line wish they would of just made it a new armor mark instead.   They totally blew it with this Wardian fantasy crap.  The direction of the fluff behind this pretty much kills the setting for me.    I'll be sticking with SW and small skirmish games,  building the odd model here and but as far as the fluff goes - this is my last stop.   Simply put this edition is geared to target  a younger generation which is fair enough.

 

Someone else put it on here perfectly by saying - I always thought I'd out grow 40k but 40k out grew me.  

Someone else put it on here perfectly by saying - I always thought I'd out grow 40k but 40k out grew me.  

 

That's exactly how I feel, perfectly worded!

[Ordo Machinum]

When I first heard rumours of larger marine models, I figured they would make great character models or squad leaders.

When I saw the Primaris, I was a bit taken aback. Nice models but not crazy of scale change. Fluff concerning them? I will stop right there.

I joked in another thread about no one from the Libris section ever being able to criticize my DIY fluff ever again. Ever. Again.

Mostly I was annoyed that GW was using my Adeptus Mechanicus trope to not only create new marines but many chapters of them?

My small group of DIY's were to be a chapter of Automata Astartes. Yes, cybernetic space marines. From Mars.

Now, GW has given me a chance to use these new Primaris models, which would invalidate the old models I was converting using techmarine bitz.

Ah, but bigger, more focused oriented, same weapon per squad space marines would be a great way to do them. Thanks, GW.

Afterall, so many strange AdMech projects are sooo justifiable after this event. Guilliman had a 10,000 year plan? Not likely, as he shouldn't have been surprised then at the state of affairs with the Imperium. He knew these would be needed? Then why be surprised? Sure, I can believe the Emperor's involvement. He may have foreseen this at some point, so ... yeah, okay.

Overall, I plan on using any deathwielding plastics that the game allows. My pre-RG marines will still be around. Afterall, regardless of a scale change, what is GW going to do? Say that all pre-Primaris marines just die out, or have upgraded?

If so, GW should have really chosen the smart route: The Emperor has revealed to Guilliman a project He had authorized 10,000 years ago. Cawl has been working on this project in secret by the Emperor's decree. The Emperor now commands his space marines to undergo the upgrades to become a Primaris. Loyalists would have no choice but to follow. Even to a minor degree.

Hopefully, the Primaris chapter fluff will be general enough to have fun with.

I guess this counts as a New Founding, eh? 27th Founding, 0/999999.M41 ?

[Prot]

I'm looking very forward to this change. For years there have been differences in Chaos "Marines". Actually you could say too much so. The 'common' marine for Chaos has been a poor choice in regards to a 'troop' for many editions. Now we have differentiation in 'marines' for loyalists.

 

GW themselves say these do not replace marines. For now it appears the 'load out' of common marines is what keeps them relevant, and their unit costs overall. 

 

I understand all or none of this may hold true if we were to hold this conversation a year from now, but it doesn't bother me. I feel like this change reflects real life in many ways. There are always 'improvements' and changes to what we know, and trusted. There will always be resistance to it, there will always be early adopters to it. In the end some of our player base will leave, but the game will go on.

 

I am someone who felt the range needed a boost anyway. It really doesn't matter if I agree, or disagree with how GW are doing it; the bottom line is I get to use what some would call 'true scale' marines. It's funny too because I remember starting my Deathwatch army thinking... damn these guys put 'normal' marines to shame.

 

They look like a great pallette to explore on. They look menacing, and heroic. Their Bolter Rifles look mean, and capable of doling out some real pain. I also feel this is a pre-emptive move to keep up with what the other races/factions will be getting.

[Ordo Machinum]

They are reminiscent of their 30k tactical support squads with every marine taking the same weapon.

 

Imagine regular marine tacticals being used for just boltguns and flamers.

Primaris bearing the boltrifles, meltarifles, plasmarifles, & gravrifles

 

Intercessors, Arbitrators, Negotiators, Incursionators, Violators, whatever they decide to call the individual units. 

[Red_Shift]

I can deal with scale creep but urghh, fluff changes, why?

New Mark of armour a-ok, space marines+3 nooooo!

[jamesvalentine]

the fluff is fine. makes sense. will probably be filled in later on release and sounds awesome.

the models are brilliant. and if GW are correct in the heads and pads being swappable with regular marines that's awesome.

they just sound awesome and I cannot wait to get all these cheap tactical squads on ebay from rage quitting whiners

[deathspectersgt7]

Well having seen some of the new primmies I like the Tactical and the plasma squad but the rest sucks . 

[Gorthaur]

The models look great.  At first glance really really liked the bolt rifles, however when thinking about it - making them longer isn't really an improvement especially when fighting boarding actions in close quarters.  

 

Bottom line wish they would of just made it a new armor mark instead.   They totally blew it with this Wardian fantasy crap.  The direction of the fluff behind this pretty much kills the setting for me.    I'll be sticking with SW and small skirmish games,  building the odd model here and but as far as the fluff goes - this is my last stop.   Simply put this edition is geared to target  a younger generation which is fair enough.

 

Someone else put it on here perfectly by saying - I always thought I'd out grow 40k but 40k out grew me.  

I'd actually be very interested in finding out if Ward is behind the latest fluff we've gotten in 2017 so far. I know vetock did the kharadron overlords, and they turned out to be one of the best things in AoS. But then again the fact that current marines can be upgraded reminds me of the stormcast eternals reforging and such. They need to tread very carefully or they will completely ruin the appeal of the setting.

[Grimtooth]

So we know that Fabius did some interesting things during the Heresy by collecting the fallen bodies of other Legions. Who is to say that he won't do the same with some fallen Primaris Marines?

 

Also, I can't possibly see how existing chapters would be able to get a full Primaris upgrade as then what happens to their chapter specific rules ; BA and SW for example? If they just import the chapter specific rules than why even bother with "normal" Primaris Marines when you can have SW or BA Marines with more gear options and more special rules? Instead I would expect a Primaris "Light" upgrade. It would beef up the standard Marine stat wise to still be below a Primaris, but more inline with how 8th has been designed. If GW does this, they kee their current customers happy that want to play their old armies in the new edition and keep the model line on the shelves.

[SickSix]

Yes, how they handle BA, DA and SW is gong to be very interesting.

 

I mean does anyone really believe the SW are going to take this smiling?

[deathspectersgt7]

Oh yes they will and they will like it .

[Captain Idaho]

I think Space Wolves will do as Guilliman says when it's a logical and rational order.

 

If Guilliman ordered them to all pull out their fangs they'd likely reject that order, but he's still a Primarch remember...

[KhorneHunter57x]

"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded." -Dawn of War Librarian

I can't accept the fluff from what we've seen - too much innovation, too much science, too much tampering with the Emperor's holy works, the Adeptus Astartes. What we've seen of these brand-new test-tube super-soldiers completely clashes with the grim darkness of this far future.

As far as the miniatures - I will reserve judgment until we see the full line, but thus far I'm only really pleased with the look of the Primaris infantry. It is possible that I acquire a number and re-build my Black Templars as true-scale, ignoring the Primaris fluff, but I am on the fence for now.

[Cryptix]

Oh my god. Why does everyone misremember that of the two thing in Ward's tweet, one was A) he was working as a client, meaning he has no power, and B) he was working on AOS stuff.

[Old-Four-Arms]

 

I can't accept the fluff from what we've seen - too much innovation, too much science, too much tampering with the Emperor's holy works, the Adeptus Astartes. What we've seen of these brand-new test-tube super-soldiers completely clashes with the grim darkness of this far future.

 

 

Very much this ; since the Death of Innocence, the Mechanicum have been depicted as a dogmatic, hidebound institution, clutching every scrap of

data in a Charlton Hestonesque way whilst augmitting "out of my cold, inert mechadendrites" and eschewing any form of technological development.

 

I wonder how they are going to react to this sudden influx of - gasp - new technology.

 

 

Old-Four-Arms

[Jackalwolf]

In my head cannon, primaris are just the real adeptus astartes of old, unimpaired by 10,000 years of genetic decadence (since I don't think the Emperor planned on keeping them for long after the great crusade), and reforged through the knowledge and blood of a living Primarch and a pseudo heretic archmagos who was cast away after attempting the same feat during the cursed founding.

 

That's how I've solved all the lore inconsistency in my head.

 

They're not new, they're what astartes should have always been, both in size and rules, but was forgotten through the ripples of 10,000 years of war.

 

EDIT: Oh, and I'm also considering making Cawl be in my head cannon in reality Arkhan Land, forced to augment himself to survive until his duty was fulfilled and changing his name to be able to work under the radar.

[Captain Idaho]

I would prefer Guilliman to essentially rebel against the old Imperium, creating a forward thinking and innovative society that produced the Primaris Marines, with the Imperium maintaining that old ignorant and oppressive empire feel.

 

That way we could have had 2 lots of Chapters duking it out, with some Chapters split between the 2 sides. I would have loved Ultramarines to have been split into one side that follows Guilliman's change and then another that renounced it.

 

The renounced ones could have renamed themselves The Warborn from pre-Guilliman times, but kept the old insignia as they refused to leave Ultramar.

 

Hell, Guilliman's Ultramarines could have been directly opposed to Ultramar as they went off crusading.

 

It works because the Ultramarines left behind could have veen disgruntled with change when for years Ultramar was fine without change.

 

Which brings us back to Primaris Marines. The Imperial Chapters don't get them but the Indomitus Crusading ones do. Allows for some Ultramarines players to embrace the changes and some to go old skool.

 

Then we could get new units for standard Marines too as the likes of Ultramarines adapted to loss of Imperial resources but were innovative, whilst the likes of The Warborn adapted to counter Guilliman's adaptions, with the hypocrisy being delicious Imperial insanity.

 

Why won't GW read things like this? Why won't they give me a writing job? ;)

[Closet Skeleton]

Oh my god. Why does everyone misremember that of the two thing in Ward's tweet, one was A) he was working as a client, meaning he has no power, and he was working on AOS stuff.

Ward never had any power. He rewrote the Necrons because a higher up decided someone had to and he got the short straw and someone else designed the Dreadnight. They've always made it clear that the design team throws stuff at the codex writers and forces them to make sense (or not) of it, the only units you can blame Ward for are the Grey Knights codex special characters who never got models.

Its been kind of confirmed that Ward wrote GS:1 but not 3.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm also considering making Cawl be in my head cannon in reality Arkhan Land, forced to augment himself to survive until his duty was fulfilled and changing his name to be able to work under the radar.

Ah yes, the old "there's only one techpriest allowed per headcanon" chestnut.

Faction = personality is the worst of 40k's grabbag of pulp fiction tropes.

I would prefer Guilliman to essentially rebel against the old Imperium, creating a forward thinking and innovative society that produced the Primaris Marines, with the Imperium maintaining that old ignorant and oppressive empire feel.

Guilleman is a pragmatist who is above everything loyal to humanity, not a idealist zealot who would risk destroying something in order to force his will upon it.