Primaris Marines are the new Marine & Meta standard!

[Grimtooth]

So I have been very, very critical of the implementation of the Primaris Marines into 40k. I think it was disengenous fluff behind an upscale as well as disengenous by GW to insist that old Marine models will have a place in 8th Edition. The reason why is because I think it is absolutely apparent that 8th Edition was wholly designed with the Primaris Marine as the standard.

 

If we look back at the very first teasers of 8th Edition up to our most current, the Primaris model (stat and gear wise) put everything into much better perspective.

 

Take the new Morale Phase for example. Many people felt it was would be extremely harsh in application, only taking into perspective the typical one wound old Marine in losing casualties and then the possibility of losing more models due to Battleshock. However, when you take into account a two wound model as the standard, now the casualties start from to balance out the new Morale rule.

 

Speaking of casualties, look at how some of the enemies of the Imperium are now geared with what has been revealed. Frankly the new gear and rules appear blatantly overpowered when facing a one wound Marine with a boltgun, but are put into perspective when facing a two wound Marine with a bolt rifle.

 

We have seen the data sheet on Rubric Marines, specifically their weaponry, which would be absolutely devastating against the standard single wound Marines with a -2 AP, but when faced against a two wound Primaris suddenly looks a bit more balanced.

 

You can see the writing on the wall each time that GW posts up some new info on gear and mechanics of 8th Edition. And I have no doubt that you will in fact be able to play with your old Marines in the new edition like GW says, but without extensive adjustments to their stats and gear, they will be wholly ineffective in a game system that has been designed around the new Primaris standard. Your old Marines have not been voided, but been made obsolete by the arrival of the Primaris standard and subsequent design around that standard.

 

Now just a waiting game until all the Primaris line is released to effectively build up a new Wolves army.

[deathspectersgt7]

But have say that I agree with 99.9 % of what you say . I will be happy to include a few primmies in my un built squads Rainbow Warriors will benefit nicely .

[Lord Abaia]

Two wound infantry are affected by the new morale twice as harshly, half as often. They are just more swingy.

 

Also Primaris Marines are specifically only equiped with the same weapon across the squad. Bolt rifles for the basic guys and it looks like at least some plasma weapons for a special weapon squad. One of the big features of 8E so far is that all units have split fire and heavy weapons can still fire reliably on the move. Primaris Marines will not get the full advantage that mixed weapon squads gain.

 

The one Primaris squad we have seen is locked into 5 man MSU squads. This will make it harder to pile-in to other units in cc or to surround a unit in cc to stop it from falling back.

 

No offense, but if you think this edition's rules were tailor made for this unit you haven't been paying attention.

[Verger]

There is only one thing at the moment that genuinely casts doubt into the "replacing the Space Marine" theory and its Forge World's Horus Heresy series.  Its proven to be a gigantic cash-cow - enough for GW to produce the plastic kits for two marks of Power Armour and two of Terminator Armour and a Dreadnought.  So I'm not sure GW are quite ready to dismiss its biggest money spinner.

That said - rescaling was inevitable. Age Of Sigmar has done it and it makes sense its futuristic cousin would do the same.  So its not a surprise either.

The proof in the pudding is really the Death Guard - are they MKIII sized or Primaris sized? Will have to wait and see.

[the jeske]

Yes, but most hvy weapons in non hvy weapon dedicted squads are going to be multi shot, because runing around with a +4single shot weapon ain't good. The primaris the way they look seem to be at least a valid choice. Now if they can replace or build a valid list of their own, is to be tested, as it does require in depth knowladge about points systems under 8th and the standard game size in 8th.

 

But yeah it does not look as if they were ment to be bad.

[Brother Christopher]

I'm leaning towards what OP wrote. I don't want to sound like a conservative/anti-progress whining dude, that is why I'll save my final opinion for the time we get specifics on the types of Primaris squads and -- most importantly -- their point cost. If a 'regular' Primaris Marine is somewhere between a Sternguard Veteran and Terminator, everything should be fine. If not (and I believe this will be the case), then regular SMs will be way, way inferior. The staying force behind regular Marines should be in their flexibility and numbers.

[Charlo]

So, is there fact here or just more opinion? :P

[Raven1]

My intention is to not start a vicious internet argument, but I do not agree with you.

 

I am fine with the new battleshock system. It was a mostly ignored/unused part of the game so either remove it or revamp it. As as the new battleshock system being unfair to 1W marines. I think the Astartes players may have become far too comfortable with ATSKNF and being able to mostly ignore fear without the drawbacks of fearless.

 

Rubric Marines were already devastating to MEQ outside of cover. For several editions of the CSM codex their bolters have been ap3. The modified AP system scales better making their bolters more effective on a wider number of targets. Also Rubric Marines also cost more points than your basic marine and normally occupy an elite slot. The intention of Rubrics has always been to have them superior to normal marines.

 

Frankly I would argue that we have seen enough of the universe to understand what will be devastating or not. Things are changing so much all codexes have been voided. I dont think it is fair to say that everything we have seen is geared toward making one troops choice ineffective on the battlefield. In fact anything coming out from GW or Front Line Gaming has said the opposite. GW has taken great lengths to ensure thier full range and therefore codex options are usable and competitive on the battlefield.

 

Laatly, GW has said it before they are a model company not a game company, not just that but a publicly traded company. You should expect model lines to be revamped, renewed, withdrawn dspending on the needs or what is healthy not just for the company but it's shareholders.

[Grimtooth]

But have say that I agree with 99.9 % of what you say . I will be happy to include a few primmies in my un built squads Rainbow Warriors will benefit nicely .

My Wolves will stay on the wayside until the whole implementation process is ironed out and the model line is released enough to make a full army. I have no desire to put the Primaris models on the same board as the standard size ones nor see the new 8th Edition version of my enemies just curbstomp my older Wolves.

[the jeske]

What is the chance that an edition that has been worked on for a long time, gets a new faction with a new model line, that overlaps with an old faction and that somehow the new stuff ends up being bad/worse then old stuff. Lets assume the new marines are not better then the old ones, what happens then? the buyers are limited to people who want to up scale their marines, that doesn't seem like a good thing to do.

So, is there fact here or just more opinion?

Is it the same type of counter argument. that was used that 8th is not going to be AoSed. and then when it ended up to be at worse under huge influence of AoS. was droped?

[Sonoftherubric21]

I concur with Raven1 above.

You cannot, cannot, CANNOT, make an informed judgement based off the snippets we have here. If you get the new book in hand, and the "primaris" section just 100% trumps the basic marines to the point that you shrug and go "well, basic marines suck now comparatively" then you may have a point, but you are drawing extreme conclusions from minutiae and lacking a whole picture.

Gw obviously wanted to true scale, I do not really foresee this overtaking the current line in ANY foreseeable future. (were talking 10 years id wager on any kind of "phase out" and even then these models are SO prevalent that they wont be going ANYWHERE.)

Rubricae have always been grossly overcosted for their effectiveness and their uses incredibly limited. This edition has them on a steady curve, as opposed to a sheer cliff of a drop-off for damage output. I do not see them being the marine issues you do, seeing as how they will cost in a grey knight level expense army (but to be fair we also dont know the outcome of Any of the other parts of the picture so perhaps im a hypocrite )

When I looked at primaris statlines nothing screamed "oh noes! outdated marines. Nyuuuu!!!" it screamed "well...this is oddly mediocre for a space marine loyalist release..." props to GW on it being *seemingly* balanced for once. They are a 5 man unit, with 2 wounds each, and ap-1 bolters with slightly more range and 1 more attack..... Seems neat..... and thats literally the best props ill give it. In a vacuum based on what we know now....they are FAR far faaaaaaaaaaaar from making basic space marines "obsolete", laughably far id say.

[deathspectersgt7]

 

But have say that I agree with 99.9 % of what you say . I will be happy to include a few primmies in my un built squads Rainbow Warriors will benefit nicely .

My Wolves will stay on the wayside until the whole implementation process is ironed out and the model line is released enough to make a full army. I have no desire to put the Primaris models on the same board as the standard size ones nor see the new 8th Edition version of my enemies just curbstomp my older Wolves.

 

Understandable Brother .I will not participate in 8th since it smacks copy&paste . But SW will see some . 

[KiltedMarine]

I see your thought process. It makes sense. In the interest of debate, though, I have counterpoints that deserve to be pointed out:

 

My own sense regarding the new morale rules doesn't seem to fit the prevailing wisdom that they're devastating. Even Old!Marines without a sergeant can suck up 2 fatalities (Ld8) without even a chance of losing more models, and although the loss curve gets steeper as you suffer fatalities, it gets steeper foe everybody. It's true that multi-wound models have a big advantage, but when they start suffering morale losses their attrition is, in a way, worse. And we don't yet know how ATSKNF works, so it's kind of early to make many assumptions.

 

The Rubricae are nasty. No argument there. I do think that you're making a logic leap when you argue that the intent there is to "balance" them against a new standard. It could be viewed, instead, through the lens of making them a resilient, high damage output unit that requires a solid cc kick to really eliminate; anti-Wolves, if you will. This is a lot like what they were back in 3rd, so imputing a rationale is tempting, but guesswork.

 

Now, be all my arguments as they may, the meta may force Primaris Astartes *as* the "new standard" just by virtue of their better stat line. But I'm not convinced that GW has that in mind as a marketing tactic. Not yet.

[Verger]

What is the chance that an edition that has been worked on for a long time, gets a new faction with a new model line, that overlaps with an old faction and that somehow the new stuff ends up being bad/worse then old stuff. Lets assume the new marines are not better then the old ones, what happens then? the buyers are limited to people who want to up scale their marines, that doesn't seem like a good thing to do.

 

Apparently they playtested this edition for 18 months.  It takes 2 years to get models ready for production, so purely as something to think about - if they knew for that long, why would they carry on making new plastic space marine kits? Sure, there is money to be made, but for a company whose profits seem to be on a knife edge - all that tooling would seem  like a weird investment when they know they're about to immediately replace it.

 

This is more devils-advocate from what I actually believe, but for the interests of discussion, I think its a valid point to make.

[Lord Abaia]

Now don't get me wrong Primaris Marines are going to dominate the fluff for the rest of our lives, and Primaris model releases will dominate as well. And I'm sure Primaris Marines will be a strong unit on the table, I just don't believe (from the limited rules we've seen so far) that 8th Ed rules are made specifically to showcase 2 wound, MSU squads where all models are armed the same. I think a unit like that would be better in 7th actually. 7th doesn't have multiple damage weapons (D notwithstanding) doesn't allow splitfire or player chosen casualties to keep your special weapons around.

[Grimtooth]

Two wound infantry are affected by the new morale twice as harshly, half as often. They are just more swingy.

 

Also Primaris Marines are specifically only equiped with the same weapon across the squad. Bolt rifles for the basic guys and it looks like at least some plasma weapons for a special weapon squad. One of the big features of 8E so far is that all units have split fire and heavy weapons can still fire reliably on the move. Primaris Marines will not get the full advantage that mixed weapon squads gain.

 

The one Primaris squad we have seen is locked into 5 man MSU squads. This will make it harder to pile-in to other units in cc or to surround a unit in cc to stop it from falling back.

 

No offense, but if you think this edition's rules were tailor made for this unit you haven't been paying attention.

1. Only if you are pulling two wound models off as your Battleshock casualties which since you are the controlling player you can control and only pull those that have alr day been wounded. And as mentioned, you are losing less casualties in the first place which has the possibility of negating of even having to take a test.

 

2. It has already been released that RG has WHOLE chapters of Primaris Marines. Are you naive enough to believe that those entire chapters consist of just 5 man bolt rifle/plasma rifle squads?

 

3. The Q&A revealed that standard Marines will be able to be Primarisized. Are you naive enough to believe that suddenly the vastly different structured chapters are suddenly going to go to 5 man bolt rifle/plasma rifle squads?

 

Why is there this prevailing thought that the Intercessor Squad data sheet is the end all example of what the Primaris Marine is limited too?

 

To whoever mentioned the new Deathguard, the latest leaked photo shows them on par size wise with Primaris Marines and Thousand Sons.

[wildweasel]

Consider that 2W sounds amazing in the context of previous editions, but pales in an environment where weapons do more than one damage per successful wound. So Primaris Marines are better bullet soaks than Astartes, but are more expensive losses to disintergrators, battle cannons, and whatever else.

[1000 Sons]

Comparing a rubric marine, who even in 7th had an ap3 gun that snuffed marines off the table, to an 8th edition rubric who shoots a marine, and the marine still gets a save, and you say 8th makes this devastating ?

 

It's these ridiculous judgements that makes me hope that primaris marines are the new normal and just like whfb got rid of the old blood out of the game, 8th edition will get rid of the people who can't adapt as well.

[Ishagu]

I am not convinced that the Primaris Marines will be more competitive than regular Marines.

 

They die just as easy to any multi wound weapons, but the squads are smaller.

 

I do expect them to ultimately become the standard and more competitive option after some time. It remains to be seen how much investment they need, how many unique units they get, etc.

 

Will they fit in a Landraider? Will they need new transports? We'll have to wait and see.

[Ishagu]

Comparing a rubric marine, who even in 7th had an ap3 gun that snuffed marines off the table, to an 8th edition rubric who shoots a marine, and the marine still gets a save, and you say 8th makes this devastating ?

 

It's these ridiculous judgements that makes me hope that primaris marines are the new normal and just like whfb got rid of the old blood out of the game, 8th edition will get rid of the people who can't adapt as well.

Marines get a crappy save to Rubrics, but Terminators and Centurions would have their saves reduced which is far more important.

 

I think you're looking at this wrong.

[Verger]

To whoever mentioned the new Deathguard, the latest leaked photo shows them on par size wise with Primaris Marines and Thousand Sons.

 

 

Thousand Sons are smaller than a Primaris Marine.  Thousand Sons are more akin to MKIII plastics, which are taller than MKIV\2015 marines.  Plus photos on their own are strange things where you can't 100% tell, especially when the photo seems to be using a non-standard base for comparisons, too.

[Lord Abaia]

1. Only if you are pulling two wound models off as your Battleshock casualties which since you are the controlling player you can control and only pull those that have alr day been wounded. And as mentioned, you are losing less casualties in the first place which has the possibility of negating of even having to take a test.

 

2. It has already been released that RG has WHOLE chapters of Primaris Marines. Are you naive enough to believe that those entire chapters consist of just 5 man bolt rifle/plasma rifle squads?

 

3. The Q&A revealed that standard Marines will be able to be Primarisized. Are you naive enough to believe that suddenly the vastly different structured chapters are suddenly going to go to 5 man bolt rifle/plasma rifle squads?

 

Why is there this prevailing thought that the Intercessor Squad data sheet is the end all example of what the Primaris Marine is limited too?

 

1. If you don't think there will be an AoS style rule where you must continue to allocate wounds to a model once it has been wounded I've got some biker Nobz to sell you.

 

2. It was mentioned by Pete Foley in the Q&A that Primaris Marines in general operate in a more specialized way than regular Marines and all of them use the same weapons.

 

3. Okay? Are you naive enough to think that there will be two sets of rules for primaris marines and formerly-regular-now-primaris marines?

[Sete]

Will Primaris go legion style?

[wildweasel]

I suspect the "can turn existing Marines into Primaris Marines" is mostly for the sake of updating old characters and fluffwise the process, while feasible, is not easy/quick enough to do en mass.

Will Primaris go legion style?

They've already said they are using Legion style organization of mono-weapon squads, including Support style squads.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

I guess Guilliman thinks the Codex is too old school for his super marines :/