Primaris Marines are the new Marine & Meta standard!

[depthcharge12]

I think regular marines will have a time and place in the new edition...and I hate to say this...but let's see what else comes out for rules.

 

Exhibit A.) Cover - WHAT IT DO? I believe we've seen mention that cover will add to armor saves. Perhaps it will drop some of the OP weapons down a notch. I mean hell, most of the weapons we have seen are AP-3 at worse, meaning you can still roll a 6 and get lucky. Even flamers don't have ignores cover...a sign of things to come?

 

Exhibit B.) We don't know how ATSKNF will work. Perhaps it will prevent battle shock all together or limit it to a single casuality? Who knows?

 

 

As much as I hate the new fluff (and agree with you) I think the rules have looked quite fair, balanced, and nice to date. Let's give it a shot shall we? Even if they try to phase out marines, you can always ride the Heresy train with us old fogeys ;)

[Grimtooth]

 

1. Only if you are pulling two wound models off as your Battleshock casualties which since you are the controlling player you can control and only pull those that have alr day been wounded. And as mentioned, you are losing less casualties in the first place which has the possibility of negating of even having to take a test.

 

2. It has already been released that RG has WHOLE chapters of Primaris Marines. Are you naive enough to believe that those entire chapters consist of just 5 man bolt rifle/plasma rifle squads?

 

3. The Q&A revealed that standard Marines will be able to be Primarisized. Are you naive enough to believe that suddenly the vastly different structured chapters are suddenly going to go to 5 man bolt rifle/plasma rifle squads?

 

Why is there this prevailing thought that the Intercessor Squad data sheet is the end all example of what the Primaris Marine is limited too?

 

1. If you don't think there will be an AoS style rule where you must continue to allocate wounds to a model once it has been wounded I've got some biker Nobz to sell you.

 

2. It was mentioned by Pete Foley in the Q&A that Primaris Marines in general operate in a more specialized way than regular Marines and all of them use the same weapons.

 

3. Okay? Are you naive enough to think that there will be two sets of rules for primaris marines and formerly-regular-now-primaris marines?

I am not taking about playing wound allocation shenanigans in shooting or close combat, but the choice in what models you pull from Battleshock. If a model is alive at the Morale Test with one wound of two left and a Battleshock casualty is getting pulled, it will be him, not a model with two wounds remaining.

 

I question if you are just being obtuse in thinking that a BA or SW becoming a Primaris is going to only have the data sheet you have seen or one that keeps their respective chapter specific rules in addition to the Primaris stats.

[dogfender]

I feel like many are not able to perceive the shape of things to come. Yes the start of the release has them limited in weapons, for now.

 

Wrap your mind around the fact that:

1 more releases will follow making current marines obsolete

2 fluff dictates normal marines can be upgraded. This has several realizations: 1 why the :cuss would you opt out of being superior? 2 when heavy bolter or melta guy says yeah I want an upgrade, you think he's gunna give up his gun? No. Eventually all marines with either be upgraded, or eventually die and be replaced. So again, these primaries marines will INEVITABLY get everything normal marines have now, they will just be better.

3 fluff also states they are trained in everything the current marines are, however so people don't lose their S, they are now more focus fighters where normal marines are Jack of all trades. This is despite them being equally trained... why have the better version not just do everything...

 

Normal marines will eventually go away, fact

[Raven1]

 

Comparing a rubric marine, who even in 7th had an ap3 gun that snuffed marines off the table, to an 8th edition rubric who shoots a marine, and the marine still gets a save, and you say 8th makes this devastating ?

 

It's these ridiculous judgements that makes me hope that primaris marines are the new normal and just like whfb got rid of the old blood out of the game, 8th edition will get rid of the people who can't adapt as well.

Marines get a crappy save to Rubrics, but Terminators and Centurions would have their saves reduced which is far more important.

 

I think you're looking at this wrong.

I think he meant to say Rubrics were only devastating to MEQ outside of cover. GEQ never got their save anyway and TEQ always got there save. So a graph for damage output for Rubrics had extreme ups and downs the modified AP has stabilized the damage output and pretty much everyone gets a save in the end. So it becomes less damaging to MEQ as they are afforded a save with or with out cover. TEQ more damaging because their save is reduced and GEQ will still probably never get a save.

 

With past editions with Rubrics in comparison to the released datasheet. Rubrics didnt become devastating they became playable when looking at the package deal not just one weapon.

 

I'm not sure where Parimaris will fall in a CAD or how useful they will really be but Paladin777 the CSM sub forum resident mathammer wizard says they are approximately equal for what it's worth.

 

Additionally, Parimaris are on equal footing or with marines as you can deal additional wounds to models which would negatively effect Parimaris and wasted on marines. Battleshock too isnt a given either. Being 5-man only they will be more susceptible to battleshock with each loss but each model can tank the additional wounds better.

 

Also from what we can tell Parimaris are specialists. The revealed squad can only have 5 bolt rifles with no special/heavy weapons whereas marines will get special/heavy options.

 

Is it possible Parimaris will supplant old marines maybe, but I wouldn't call it a forgone conclusion yet. I could see it happening as it allows SM to be smaller model count army which would more easily let new players get on the tabletop faster and possibly cheaper.

 

Far as scale creep goes who still honestly plays with RBT01, I bet it's far less then the newer released boxes.

[deathspectersgt7]

@Raven1 RBT01 more than you realize buckaroo .

[Grimtooth]

I think some of you are too focused on what you were given with Primaris and not looking at all the other information we have been given in the Faction Focus segments for example.

 

Look at what you have been given with the rules changes to the xenos factions so far and ask yourself what new rules will standard Marines NEED to have on their data sheets just to survive as well as be offensive. Then look at what even the most basic Primaris Marine does in comparison and think about how a chapter specific Primaris Marine might do in comparison. The Primaris undoubtedly fits the role while leaving the standard Marine behind.

 

And about those extensive rules and gear changes standard Marines would need to just reach a level battlefield in the new edition; anything they would need would basically be putting them in par with Primaris Marines anyway. Are they going to get two wounds default? Not a chance. But somehow terminators have two wounds now ans being compared to Primaris Maribes albeit with better armor.

 

I will say that if we see the new terminator data sheet and it is Primaris stats with just better armor, then that would be undeniable proof that the new standard is the Primaris.

[Raven1]

@Raven1 RBT01 more than you realize buckaroo .

Fair enough I just have never seen in person since I started playing in ~2000

[wildweasel]

We've seen the Terminator statline - it's one of the very first things they revealed. They are 2A and 2W just like Primaris - but that doesn't mean they are Primaris, it means they are veterans and TDA now grants +1W - ya know, that thing people have been asking for almost 20 years? And that extra Wound is in the context of an edition that operates on a much large range of Wound values and damage outputs. Like Bikes I'm pretty certain are going to have at least 2W as well, Custodes prob 3-4, etc.

[chapter master 454]

The question is what resources does it take to make a primaris?

 

However my concern is something of a personal one: I might be weird or it may be the norm however each model I field, be it the modest tactical marine all the way to my beloved land raiders, each one I love dearly and only under circumstances do I 'swap' their models. My 2 mainstay dreadnoughts (Kayvaan and Ventris) were standard dreads for a long time until I decided to 'upgrade' them to venerable models (which to this day retain their odd chances that if one goes down the other suddenly starts hitting everything). If I had to 'upgrade' my marines, not only is it a monetary sink but in essence a spiritual one too. Doing this mass upgrade would be...well...depressing as it would just feel like a betrayal of the models I built. Not sure...but that's my odd concern...and very sadly I feel it is one I may need to make peace with.

 

Looking at primaris marines compared to marines...why run tacticals? 'Flexibility'? Don't argue that a single lascannon/heavy boltgun/missile launcher firing at a more ripe target every turn will do much compared to bringing actual units for the job.

 

Ah...just carry on brothers...this marine player has had a rough night and chaos being a welcome host of terrible ideas...

[Grimtooth]

Comparing a rubric marine, who even in 7th had an ap3 gun that snuffed marines off the table, to an 8th edition rubric who shoots a marine, and the marine still gets a save, and you say 8th makes this devastating ?

 

It's these ridiculous judgements that makes me hope that primaris marines are the new normal and just like whfb got rid of the old blood out of the game, 8th edition will get rid of the people who can't adapt as well.

Actually it is much simpler;

 

Standard Marine gets hit by Rubric, fails a crappy save and dies

 

Primaris Marine gets hit by Rubric, fails a crappy save and lives.

 

And I think you misunderstand even the premise behind the topic, Primaris is the new standard and rightly so with a full model releases for all intents and purposes to get rid of this false ploy that standard Marines actually have a place in 8th Edition.

[wildweasel]

5 surviving Primaris fire some rifle bolts, kills a Rubric.

 

4 surviving Tacticals fire two plasma guns and nuke most of the Rubrics.

 

We get the premise, the problem is that you are begging the question and presenting your speculation as incontrovertible truth.

[Grimtooth]

The question is what resources does it take to make a primaris?

 

However my concern is something of a personal one: I might be weird or it may be the norm however each model I field, be it the modest tactical marine all the way to my beloved land raiders, each one I love dearly and only under circumstances do I 'swap' their models. My 2 mainstay dreadnoughts (Kayvaan and Ventris) were standard dreads for a long time until I decided to 'upgrade' them to venerable models (which to this day retain their odd chances that if one goes down the other suddenly starts hitting everything). If I had to 'upgrade' my marines, not only is it a monetary sink but in essence a spiritual one too. Doing this mass upgrade would be...well...depressing as it would just feel like a betrayal of the models I built. Not sure...but that's my odd concern...and very sadly I feel it is one I may need to make peace with.

 

Looking at primaris marines compared to marines...why run tacticals? 'Flexibility'? Don't argue that a single lascannon/heavy boltgun/missile launcher firing at a more ripe target every turn will do much compared to bringing actual units for the job.

 

Ah...just carry on brothers...this marine player has had a rough night and chaos being a welcome host of terrible ideas...

I wouldn't fret about actually losing your old army. When they rescaled terminators, you could still play with your old metal smaller ones. I do think GW is genuine in you being able to use your old models, just with whatever rules it takes to make your army all have the Primaris stat line.

 

And FYI, article on mentions the difference between terminators and Primaris being better armor. Better armor is represented by the ability to protect against a wider range of weapons. An additional wound does not represent better protection against a wider range of weaponry. Which article released the terminator data sheet?

[Lord Abaia]

I feel like many are not able to perceive the shape of things to come. Yes the start of the release has them limited in weapons, for now.

 

Wrap your mind around the fact that:

1 more releases will follow making current marines obsolete

2 fluff dictates normal marines can be upgraded. This has several realizations: 1 why the :cuss would you opt out of being superior? 2 when heavy bolter or melta guy says yeah I want an upgrade, you think he's gunna give up his gun? No. Eventually all marines with either be upgraded, or eventually die and be replaced. So again, these primaries marines will INEVITABLY get everything normal marines have now, they will just be better.

3 fluff also states they are trained in everything the current marines are, however so people don't lose their S, they are now more focus fighters where normal marines are Jack of all trades. This is despite them being equally trained... why have the better version not just do everything...

 

Normal marines will eventually go away, fact

I don't dispute anything you are saying. However I seriously doubt that primaris tac squads will be included for a while. Years even. How else will they shift the rest of the normal SM inventory? In the context of this thread I do not think that that supports the idea that 8th Ed rules were made specifically to benefit primaris over normal Marines. We've got an incomplete picture, but what's in the picture right now doesn't support his claim. You can speculate all day about what future releases they will get.

 

Of course they will eventually have more weapon options. Probably when they stop making normal marines, hopefully after they've retconed primaris fluff out of existence. "Marines have always been this big, what are you talking about?"

 

I don't really have anything else to say about it though. This is just kind of a pointless, fear mongering thread and it certainly isn't news.

[Olis]

This is neither news or rumours - hence this topic has been moved to the Amicus.

[Black Cohort]

 

Comparing a rubric marine, who even in 7th had an ap3 gun that snuffed marines off the table, to an 8th edition rubric who shoots a marine, and the marine still gets a save, and you say 8th makes this devastating ?

 

It's these ridiculous judgements that makes me hope that primaris marines are the new normal and just like whfb got rid of the old blood out of the game, 8th edition will get rid of the people who can't adapt as well.

Actually it is much simpler;

 

Standard Marine gets hit by Rubric, fails a crappy save and dies

 

Primaris Marine gets hit by Rubric, fails a crappy save and lives.

 

And I think you misunderstand even the premise behind the topic, Primaris is the new standard and rightly so with a full model releases for all intents and purposes to get rid of this false ploy that standard Marines actually have a place in 8th Edition.

 

 

 

Primaris Marines do better against basic weapons, tactical marines do better against larger multi-damage weapons.  A 5 man primaris marine squad is really not going to like getting hit by a battle cannon.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

Scaling-up marines was always going to cause problems, but it seems to me they have been trying their utmost to accommodate players' older collections. That is why I am fairly confident that standard marines will be competitive on the table with Primaris marines.  That being said I don't think it's really practical to speculate about their efficacy when we don't have the complete picture of the new edition yet--even for theory hammer.  

 

I'm fairly certain that a lot of people at GW who work on modeling, rules, probably a majority of their employees who work on the meat of the game and the hobby have space marine collections.  I'd imagine that before we all were feeling the dread of the uncertainty of what scaled-up marines mean for our old hard won collections mean, they were grappling with this themselves and not feeling great at seeing their own collections potentially becoming invalidated while they solved this scale issue.  And I'm pretty sure they don't want to alienate their customers who have the greatest interest in power armor.  

 

Although at first I was dubious about putting a narrative spin behind the change of scale, I actually think this was a real boon to the community as it gives a narrative rationale for players to use both and not feel annoyed at the scale difference.  If they just put out a new Mk.X kit that was a ton bigger and just didn't address the scale issue, I think it would have left things a lot more awkward and potentially toxic.  As it is, they can craft both rules and narratives going forward that continue to address the new and old marines side-by-side and the only way for that to work is for them to keep the old marines relevant, even if they ultimately phase our their sale.  If they are balanced against the Primaris, old players will always be able to use them, while newer players who don't have them won't be at a disadvantage either.

[1000 Sons]

This is what they did with AoS, all the old models are still playable but get no new releases. Kind of like terminators on 25mm bases, you'd see them every so often, but they are pretty much gone now. There have been many armies that still exist in the game but receive no new models or attention.

[DeadFingers]

Scaling-up marines was always going to cause problems, but it seems to me they have been trying their utmost to accommodate players' older collections. That is why I am fairly confident that standard marines will be competitive on the table with Primaris marines.  That being said I don't think it's really practical to speculate about their efficacy when we don't have the complete picture of the new edition yet--even for theory hammer.  

 

I'm fairly certain that a lot of people at GW who work on modeling, rules, probably a majority of their employees who work on the meat of the game and the hobby have space marine collections.  I'd imagine that before we all were feeling the dread of the uncertainty of what scaled-up marines mean for our old hard won collections mean, they were grappling with this themselves and not feeling great at seeing their own collections potentially becoming invalidated while they solved this scale issue.  And I'm pretty sure they don't want to alienate their customers who have the greatest interest in power armor.  

 

Although at first I was dubious about putting a narrative spin behind the change of scale, I actually think this was a real boon to the community as it gives a narrative rationale for players to use both and not feel annoyed at the scale difference.  If they just put out a new Mk.X kit that was a ton bigger and just didn't address the scale issue, I think it would have left things a lot more awkward and potentially toxic.  As it is, they can craft both rules and narratives going forward that continue to address the new and old marines side-by-side and the only way for that to work is for them to keep the old marines relevant, even if they ultimately phase our their sale.  If they are balanced against the Primaris, old players will always be able to use them, while newer players who don't have them won't be at a disadvantage either.

 

This is it. I understand that people are very opposed to change, specially when change menaces the armies they've lovingly built and painted across the years. But this fear that their trusty old Marines are getting replaced, that their armies are getting invalidated, that GW is sneakily hiding a scale change under the fluff, etc. doesn't let them see that GW have given them the exact opposite.

 

Yeah, you read that correctly. They could've just released new, bigger Marines and said "that's how Marines look", but instead, they made the Primaris, and gave regular Marines the ability to be "upgraded" to Primaris. You can think whatever you want about the fluff, like it, love it, hate it, despise it, but we should all understand that thanks to this fluff we have an in-universe reason for our current Marines to coexist on the tabletop with the Primaris and any other bigger Marines that come out in the future. It doesn't matter if they replace the entire Space Marine range with upscaled models, our old models will still have a place on the table, you just have to say that they refused to undergo the Primaris process.

[m0nolith]

Space Marines are being replaced but not phased out.

There will always be a spot for them ruleswise and fluffwise.

[dogfender]

Space Marines are being replaced but not phased out.

whether that is true or not. logically in fluff it wouldnt make sense to continue to make normal marines when you can have better ones. so if gw doesnt eventually just moves on with these new ones, their own fluff becomes more fidget-spinner

[Claws and Effect]

What if normal marines can be made easier and faster?

 

Hmm. Our depleted chapter can replace its losses in 7 years or 15 years. Not hard to envision why a chapter might choose to make normal marines in that case.

 

It has also been mentioned that some chapters are resistant or downright hostile to the idea of Primaris marines. If I were GW, I wouldn't explicitly state which chapters those are and leave the players to decide.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

 

logically in fluff it wouldnt make sense to continue to make normal marines when you can have better ones.

 

Don't underestimate the power of "tradition" among many of the more stubborn chapters. Given the personalities of many Chapters I could see them shunning the Primaris Marines and their new-fangled implantation in the fluff.

[the jeske]

This is what they did with AoS, all the old models are still playable but get no new releases. Kind of like terminators on 25mm bases, you'd see them every so often, but they are pretty much gone now. There have been many armies that still exist in the game but receive no new models or attention.

Ok, but if someone liked knights, he [i hope] has the option to play not-bretonians and not-imperial knightly orders OR the super knights in golden armor. And out of those 3 I expect only one to get updates as far as rules and models go.

Now knightly orders are no where near as popular [but that only means that if a problem of validity would end up poping up, it would just be much bigger] as marines, but the patern is there.

 

Oh a more funny side, I noticed that I dislike the looks of some of the new marines, but couldn't pin point why it is the case. Then my wife explained to me that it is the shin and knee guards, they look exactly the same as they do on sigmarines.

[m0nolith]

Ugh....

 

-Are Space Marines Dead

No, and whoever says yes is thinking only emotionally and isnt using a rational bone in their body. To put it bluntly, there is still a market for them and people will buy new SM models.

 

-Are Space Marines being phased out

No, there will be no releases for them in the short term, but they are still going to get things eventually because GW likes to make money, and as stated above, there's a market there.

 

-Have Space Marines been replaced as the new standard.

Not yet, but they will be. I have little doubt that Primaris are going to be a resounding success, and certainly they will be the new poster boys of 40k. 

 

-Will space marines eventually go away.

No, theres always going to be people who play old school space marines, there will be chapters that dont allow Primaris into their chapter for whatever reason.

 

-Are the big 4 going to be entirely replaced by Primaris?

Maybe, depends on how well the Primaris sell and how poorly regular marines keep on being sold.

 

-Bretonian argument

Nonsense. Comparing one of the poorest selling factions in a failing game to the best selling faction in the best selling game is no comparison at all.

 

 

Space Marines are being replaced as the poster boys, but they are and never will go away. The range will continue receiving models because there will always, ALWAYS be a market for them. A lot of Space Marine players will switch over to Primaris, but a good amount will not. You will certainly not see full space marine armies nearly as often after Primaris get established, but to say that this is the end or that Space Marines are going to be entirely phased out is beyond nonsene.

 

Basically, are you always going to buy more space marine stuff if they release more space marine models?

Yes?

THAT is why space marines are not going away, ever.

[Antarius]

While the doomsaying is hilarious and the obvious answer is "nobody really knows at this point" (which obviously cuts both ways), I'd like to put a few things up for consideration in the interest of debate:

 

- Thousand Sons are and always were supposed to be an elite anti-meq unit (that they were horribly overcosted in most of their incarnations is another matter).

If they are roughly comparable to Primaris (which has so far been presented as another elite-type unit) I don't think that points to Primaris being the baseline. Rather, I think it points to a balancing of elite-type units. It seems quite reasonable to me that cult-units would match up to/be slightly better than Primaris, whereas regular CSM would match up to regular marines.

I, completely honestly and with no snark at all, simply cannot see how the fact that Thousand Sons stats are more elite than regular marines would lead to the conclusion that Primaris are obviously superior.

 

- We don't know points costs, across the board. And with very few exceptions, points costs are what make or break units when it comes to whether they are worth taking. It seems like it's pretty much impossible to conclude that either Primaris or regular marines will be superior as long as we don't know which choice will be more cost effective.

 

- Having said that, they do seem to actively want to give us gameplay reasons to field regular marines. So my guess is marines won't be obsolete (for the foreseeable future anyway).

 

- There's still a lot we don't know when it comes to gear, unit types, transport options, new units etc.

Now, this obviously doesn't mean that Primaris won't be superior - but it does mean that concluding that marines are obsolete is, at best, pure speculation. So I personally won't throw away my marines just yet.

 

- Veering into speculation here, since we obviously don't know how Primaris will be costed relative to regular marines. However, we do know that they will be more expensive points-wise. Exactly how much more expensive will be the deciding factor, as mentioned earlier but generally speaking, damage output trumps survivability and the Primaris don't seem to have a higher damage output - and we already know that bolt rifles aren't dramatically better at laying down wounds than regular bolters. 
Again, precise points costs will be what makes or breaks Primaris, but from what I've seen my money are on more bolters per point being better than more resilience per point.