Primaris Marines are the new Marine & Meta standard!

[Grimtooth]

Whilst I fully expect GW to switch part of its production capacity to the Primaris Marines, I cannot see them killing the HH cash cow.

 

IMHO, they could still bring out additional plastic HH kits in "oldscale" (the "nuscale" Primaris being a Guilliman/Cawl/40k thing).

 

Just my 5 cents though.

 

 

Regards,

 

Old-Four-Arms

How is getting rid of the Warhammer 40k old Marine model getting rid of the HH cash cow? FW sells everything for HH and the most that GW has done in their side to support HH is given us two box sets for a different game in which if you plan on using them for HH, you need to offload the rules, Sisters, and Custodes on EBay!

 

If GW wants to create a HERD of cash cows they need to do the following;

 

Shift ALL GW production assets allocated to standard size Marines for Warhammwr 40k to making Warhammer 30k plastic legionaries. Replace the soon to be failing 40k Marine line with 30k plastics. Frankly the basics of getting into 30k should be on the LFGS shelf beyond having to buy Calth or Prospero.

 

Let FW be the HH accessory and upgrade kit cash cow. Maybe even let them keep special characters, primarchs, and big vehicles. If you want your HH army to blow people away with custom crap, you gotta pay.

 

Don't put a penny worth of design or development into any of the existing SM line with the only exception being that a they are fully legal to be used as Primaris. Everything should be solely focused in the new Primaris line and getting that scale out for all armies to Primarisized their beloved chapters.

[Antarius]

 

 

 

In the end, its all about money, and if there's money to be made, GW will try and make it, and if you think that there wont always be a market for regular SM out there, you are delusional.

 

You're quite right, there will be a market, it just wont be provided for by GW, that's why they're bringing in trademarkable primaris-inventaname-ors to that end.

 

I mean, you've been told repeatedly by GW in their press releases and live casts many ways as to why in the nufluff (harder, bigger, faster, stronger) primaris are replacing normalstartes, how characters are beefuppable to primaris and how chapters are being supplanted, created and reinforced with primaris, to what end do you think that logic goes? They just replace squaddie bob from 2nd company and that's it? Come now, don't say that's what you believe?

 

To think that they're going to keep an old race/catalogue range just to please collectors, well... pray thee tell me where one can buy Zoats

 

Just to be perfectly clear: I don't know what's going to happen (and so, I would note, neither does anyone else).

 

However, where some people see GW laying the groundwork for one product replacing another, I see them laying the groundwork for selling two products rather than one (hence all the emphasis in both fluff and the rules we have seen/heard about so far on how the two types of marines support each other).

Also, the rogue trader marines etc. aren't a very good comparison, as they are, by their very definition, an older version of the same product. The way I interpret GW's current noises, they're doing their best to present numarines as a separate (but potentially supporting) product to their already existing range of marine products.

 

Don't get me wrong, here. I have no doubt that GW would replace any of their products, if they felt it would be profitable to do so (and if they felt that they could "get away with it", so to speak). But I'm equally sure they would rather sell you two products rather than one.

 

Add to that the fact that the current range represents a considerable and recent investment, which would be a write-off if they scrapped it but which costs them little to keep pumping out, and I'm not so sure regular marines are going the way of the dodo just yet.

[Old-Four-Arms]

 

Whilst I fully expect GW to switch part of its production capacity to the Primaris Marines, I cannot see them killing the HH cash cow.

 

IMHO, they could still bring out additional plastic HH kits in "oldscale" (the "nuscale" Primaris being a Guilliman/Cawl/40k thing).

 

Just my 5 cents though.

 

 

Regards,

 

Old-Four-Arms

How is getting rid of the Warhammer 40k old Marine model getting rid of the HH cash cow? FW sells everything for HH and the most that GW has done in their side to support HH is given us two box sets for a different game in which if you plan on using them for HH, you need to offload the rules, Sisters, and Custodes on EBay!

 

If GW wants to create a HERD of cash cows they need to do the following;

 

Shift ALL GW production assets allocated to standard size Marines for Warhammwr 40k to making Warhammer 30k plastic legionaries. Replace the soon to be failing 40k Marine line with 30k plastics. Frankly the basics of getting into 30k should be on the LFGS shelf beyond having to buy Calth or Prospero.

 

Let FW be the HH accessory and upgrade kit cash cow. Maybe even let them keep special characters, primarchs, and big vehicles. If you want your HH army to blow people away with custom crap, you gotta pay.

 

Don't put a penny worth of design or development into any of the existing SM line with the only exception being that a they are fully legal to be used as Primaris. Everything should be solely focused in the new Primaris line and getting that scale out for all armies to Primarisized their beloved chapters.

 

 

I fully agree with you.

 

My statement of "killing the HH cash cow" was intended to express the possibility of still having oldscale Marines in the future, but not necessarily for 40k.

 

GW gave us Betrayal at Calth & Burning of Prospero as Legion-neutral, entry-level boxes for HH. If they continue to do so and bring out the remaining older armor marks (II, V and VI) in a boxed game or separate kit, FW will be able to concentrate on Legion-specific add-ons & specialist kits (which is what they should be doing IMHO).

 

If the Primaris are going to be the new, trademarkable poster boys for 40k,  then I hope we will still have a parallel plastic HH line in oldscale.

 

 

Regards,

 

Old-Four-Arms

[Ishagu]

The HH cash cow is an interesting issue for GW to deal with.

 

Now that rules are free the FW sales for units in 40k armies might sky rocket. Not to mention that with the death of Formations and the return of slot based Force Orgs those units will not be excluded from most lists as was the case in 7th.

 

The HH might become a distant second priority...

[Marshal Rohr]

The HH cash cow is an interesting issue for GW to deal with.

 

Now that rules are free the FW sales for units in 40k armies might sky rocket. Not to mention that with the death of Formations and the return of slot based Force Orgs those units will not be excluded from most lists as was the case in 7th.

 

The HH might become a distant second priority...

Only to meta obsessed power gamers. The HH will be more profitable because it has more soul. That's why it was successful when it was just four legions and barely any rules.

[Verger]

Can someone remind me why these new models are "True Scale"? Because what I'm seeing is 32mm Heroic Scale.  GW suddenly flipping to "true scale" when *everything* they do in AoS and 40k is Heroic Scale would be completely nuts.

[Marshal Rohr]

Can someone remind me why these new models are "True Scale"? Because what I'm seeing is 32mm Heroic Scale. GW suddenly flipping to "true scale" when *everything* they do in AoS and 40k is Heroic Scale would be completely nuts.

Marines are an improperly scaled faction. As scale has crept upwards in Xenos and other non-marine human factions (gigantic Cadians) marines have remained the same. So while the original plastic kit the current tactical are based on was properly scaled compared to metal Guard and elder it was not to plastic elder and guard.

[deathspectersgt7]

Except they are not true scaled 2.0 just proper scaled . This about 40k anyway 30k is only getting rule changes . 

[Antarius]

When it comes to scale, isn't the only truly huge (pun!) problem the plastic guardsmen? Assuming they are scaled down a bit in a new kit (or rather, given a more "realistic" proportioning, perhaps similar to Skitarii), wouldn't marines look much better?

It's a bit of a stray thought, but am I completely wrong here?

[Robbienw]

When it comes to scale, isn't the only truly huge (pun!) problem the plastic guardsmen? Assuming they are scaled down a bit in a new kit (or rather, given a more "realistic" proportioning, perhaps similar to Skitarii), wouldn't marines look much better?

It's a bit of a stray thought, but am I completely wrong here?

No, you are completely right. The Marines only look smallish against the old imperial guard plastics and some of the old metals.

 

They look fine against the forgeworld guard regiments and newer smaller human models such as the skitarii and the genestealer cult neophyte hybrids.

 

If we see new plastic IG regiments in future I'm sure they will be similar sized to the skitarii and the neophytes, not the old metals and the cadians.

[Grimtooth]

Tyranid Faction Focus just added another check in the yes column on old Marines being obsolete in my opinion.

 

Happy for the Nid players.

[Jackalwolf]

Current marines are improperly scaled by any human standards. There are typically three different proportions derived from our history of art, all measuring the multiples of the head to obtain the body proportions.

 

- 7 Heads: Normal proportions

- 8 Heads: Artistic/Stylised proportions

- 9 Heads: Heroic proportions

 

Marines are currently scaled at around 5 heads, which are the proportions of a pre pubescent.

 

And before someone comes arguing that they're post human yada yada, remember they have two hearts, two stomachs, three lungs and a couple extra organs. There is no reason for their chests to be smaller than a normal human when compared to their head.

 

In short, they're a mild train wreck, one that we've grown on and therefore love but all the new games coming up with better proportions make them look dumb and I wager most people will be unable to like them anymore when primaris become prevalent. As soon as you get used to seeing primaris marines the old marines shortcomings will be painfully obvious.

[deathspectersgt7]

After one look you mean .

[Jackalwolf]

After one look you mean .:D

LOL too true. I find myself looking at all my painfully converted marines unable to like them save a few exceptions built on the FW character range series frame which is around six head proportions and the bare minimum to resemble an adult!

 

I'm thinking I'll keep my Emperor's Children as a memory/expo since they're all resin mkii and they're a small force but I'll scrap everything else and build it on the new scale.

[deathspectersgt7]

I have way too much invested not to like my boys I have 70 flavors (Chapters) to look at.

[TheReclusiarch]

I, for one, can't wait to phase out my old Space Marines for the new gorgeous Primaris Space Marines. This is how I wanted the Space Marines to look like. High Quality models, imposing and with great rules (for what I've seen). I am ready. :)

[deathspectersgt7]

One sheet that just covers the basics rules and thats it I want more info . So far I'am not that impressed with the rules . I will have to play a few games to make a decision and not go by a few dribs and drabs . And I want to see more of the primmies also what the actual kit looks like . 

[Ordo Machinum]

“ No one would have believed, in the last years of the 41st millennium, that Adeptus Astartes affairs were being watched from the timeless worlds of space. No one could have dreamed that our chapters were being scrutinized as a magos biologist with a microscope studies creatures that swarm and multiply in a drop of water. And yet, across the gulf of space, augmented Martian minds, immeasurably superior to ours, regarded these Space Marines with envious eyes, and slowly, and surely, they drew their plans against us…” - Inquisitor H.G. Wells

It will be fun. At the least, it shouldn't be boring.

[m0nolith]

I understand that this is a forum dedicated to said tabletop game and people like to shout in this echo chamber about space marines going away entirely, but this is a multifaceted intellectual property.

 

There are FAR more fans of the 40k universe that only know it through video games. Some of them dont even know that there is a tabletop game!

 

GW has been pimping SM in video games as the "it" thing for the last 25 years. Do you really think they are going to replace SM into video games without letting people know why they are being replaced? Do you really think that they will try to explain what Primaris are with Gulliman, Cawl, and the whole Gathering Storm thing in video games?

People who play DoW dont know who or what in the hell a Gulliman is.

 

 

To those people outside of the tabletop game, Space Marines ARE Warhammer 40,000. They are what defines the 40k Intellectual Proprety!

Thats like saying "All Lightsabers are going to be replaced in Star Wars with LightHalberds because...they're bigger, and Jedi are getting replaced with Force Vikings, and the Force is getting replaced with microorganisms"....oh wait, nvm on that last one.

 

 

Here's whats happening.

Space marines are no longer going to be catered to in the tabletop game like they were, that honor goes to the Primaris, but to think that Space Marines are going away is entirely the result of a couple of very emotional people, and no matter how strongly your emotion tells you that you're right, you're still channeling your emotions through a niche hobby and not the massive juggernaut that video games are.

 

There's always going to be people who come to the tabletop from video games wanting to play the space marines they played in the video game!

 

People need to look past this hobby, because 40k has gone past it a while ago.

So everyone freaking out has to accept that they are only a part of a much larger thing and....

 

[Gothical]

Snip

 

I think you misunderstand where people are coming from. I am one of those concerned that the Primaris Marines will be a replacement. I think that (for example) come 9th Edition there will be no distinction between "Marines" and "Primaris Marines" but one "Astartes" stat-line with an updated, rescaled model line, with the talk of genetic and wargear improvements relegated to a background footnote of the "Codex" appended to the general "Creation of a Space Marine".

 

Therefore it won't matter to those who are solely fans of non-tabletop GW products - Dawn of War (etc.) will never mention the Primaris project, and for those who do move across they'll see a range that plays more like the elite force they are represented as in the video games.

 

That's my take anyway.

[m0nolith]

 

Snip

 

I think you misunderstand where people are coming from. I am one of those concerned that the Primaris Marines will be a replacement. I think that (for example) come 9th Edition there will be no distinction between "Marines" and "Primaris Marines" but one "Astartes" stat-line with an updated, rescaled model line, with the talk of genetic and wargear improvements relegated to a background footnote of the "Codex" appended to the general "Creation of a Space Marine".

 

Therefore it won't matter to those who are solely fans of non-tabletop GW products - Dawn of War (etc.) will never mention the Primaris project, and for those who do move across they'll see a range that plays more like the elite force they are represented as in the video games.

 

That's my take anyway.

 

That then my friend would be a bait and switch for the ages.

[Liege]

Current marines are improperly scaled by any human standards. There are typically three different proportions derived from our history of art, all measuring the multiples of the head to obtain the body proportions.

 

- 7 Heads: Normal proportions

- 8 Heads: Artistic/Stylised proportions

- 9 Heads: Heroic proportions

 

Marines are currently scaled at around 5 heads, which are the proportions of a pre pubescent.

 

And before someone comes arguing that they're post human yada yada, remember they have two hearts, two stomachs, three lungs and a couple extra organs. There is no reason for their chests to be smaller than a normal human when compared to their head.

 

In short, they're a mild train wreck, one that we've grown on and therefore love but all the new games coming up with better proportions make them look dumb and I wager most people will be unable to like them anymore when primaris become prevalent. As soon as you get used to seeing primaris marines the old marines shortcomings will be painfully obvious.

Could you please elaborate on the proportions scale?

 

By your estimates where do the Primaris marines come into it in regard to 'heads'?

[Jackalwolf]

Of course mate,

 

This is a general idea of normal proportions and how they vary with age:

 

And this different proportion scales:

http://68.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6ge3uxy8m1qkqjvho3_1280.jpg

 

Primaris Space marines seem to be proportioned (with helmet) at around  6 to 7 heads tall which is much more acceptable. One of the issues GW has always had though is that the helmeted heads have the same size as the unhelmeted heads size, which is weird as anyone who's ever worn or seen a motorbike helmet will know. If you consider the helmet variants we've seen and you assume the head is smaller than the helmet (duh), they're really on that 7 to 7.5 point, it seems to me.

 

But even if the bare heads look too big, the proportions between legs and torso are much better.

[Robbienw]

Human body proportions change with age, they probably also change when growing into a fictional superhuman

[Jackalwolf]

Indeed Robbie, but all lore suggests is they're wider. Nowhere they've been described as supersized headed aberrations. 

 

Normally human body proportions in width is 2x heads so it's easy to assume an astartes could easily be 3 to 3.5 heads in width due to the extra organs. Which still doesn't help to the height proportions.

 

Also, I refer you to my previous post:

 

And before someone comes arguing that they're post human yada yada, remember they have two hearts, two stomachs, three lungs and a couple extra organs. There is no reason for their chests to be smaller than a normal human when compared to their head.

 

There's no extra organ in their heads, but plenty to go around in the torso.