Primaris Marines are the new Marine & Meta standard!

[SickSix]

 

The worst part with this new Primaris business is that, as I see it, for the sake of pushing sales, GW ruins the setting. If we have to have Marines 2.0, it would be way more interesting if they couldn't be upgrades for the existing Marines. That would at least leave some space for not including them in some Chapters. As an upgrade option, I see no reason (based on GW's official fluff releases, but also extrapolating from their current writing in general) to keep the old Marines, with the new being superior in every way and, apparently, readily available in chapter-sized batches.

 

 

That's like saying there's no reason for people to own Astral Claws or Astral Knights armies.

 

 

If you are a new player why would buy regular marines? People who collect dead chapters aren't GW's target audience. And if you were, GW are now saying 'Hey, you guys just got resurrected as all Primaris Marines! Buy these guys!'

[AndrewChristlieb]

If I get any (I might pick up the new box set if someone local wants the Chaos) they will most likely be seconded to my Celestial Lions. I already use that army as support for my Templars and it fits the fluff so I won't feel too bad about it. If I get them and they're magically awesome I still won't put them in my Templars. Magic is heresy. Seriously though if they end up a lot cooler looking then they do in the pics I may try and convert a few for the crusade, but they're going to have to really impress me in person.

[Gothical]

I'll repost something here I posted in the 8th edition section:

 

While discussing the new stuff with my local store manager, and interesting point came up. Nowhere in the GW briefing packs or seminars is the Dark Imperium set referred to as a "Starter Set", as previous products have been. The manager said it is possible that we will see a "more traditional starter set" coming out down the line - likely with mini-rulebook, standard Marines etc; that this box is possibly more like the Campaign Boxes they were doing, but to showcase two new model ranges and launch the full new rules.

[Trevak Dal]

I think I'd like the fluff better if it was different. Like the PriMarines were taken from volunteers of maimed or dying chapters and then Super Serumed up to Drago levels so when they go out to fight chaos or aliens they're like "I must break you,"

[Grimtooth]

Well some more data sheets and points costs were leaked and Tacticals still look screwed in this edition. Granted an Intercessor Squad is like 205pts or so for 5 guys, the wounds, the attacks, and the weapon make it worth it.

[VengefulJan]

But they don't have the same form of flexibility as a tactical squad. Sure they're a bit tougher, but their effectiveness is minimum as they'll only be dishing 5 bolt shots at max range, 10 at the minimum, and this is only made adequate after you apply the fact that they reduce the target armor save by 1. After that, they got nothing left to really leave a mark on the battlefield; they're response to everything will be Bolt Rifle.

 

Tacticals actually have a variety of weapons that they can bring with them that will allow them to have a much bigger impact on what ever task you build them for. Intercessors are nothing more, in my eyes, than a more durable screening force.

[Verger]

Well some more data sheets and points costs were leaked and Tacticals still look screwed in this edition.

Space Marines are *supposed* to be screwed.  Its always pretty much been the case with the fluff that the enemy is either too numerous (Orks), too adaptable (Tyranids), too advanced (Eldar ect) or simply bolstered by Chaos.

 

Giving boosts to all the non Imperium armies in the way they have makes the game feel more like the bitter struggle for survival the setting is actually supposed to be.  I'm actually glad that when I stare down some chaos-scum that I know its going to hurt and hurt bad, because that is how its supposed to be.

 

and +1 to VengefulJan, because thats what they look like to me right now - an expensive, resilient gunline.  Tactical Squad still has a place.

[Grimtooth]

With leaks all across the board now I am glad I posted this thread. The SM Faction Focus was laughable and now with fluff of the Ultima Founding it is even more obvious that before.

[Verger]

With leaks all across the board now I am glad I posted this thread. The SM Faction Focus was laughable and now with fluff of the Ultima Founding it is even more obvious that before.

 

Its funny - I got a different angle than you did from the focus, then. The Hellblaster squad, for example - is a Heavy Support option. Now let me ask you this - do you want to replace 5 LasCannons with a long-range Plasma Gun?

 

No. Not for one second.

 

I'll believe that Space Marines are getting "replaced" when I start smoking whatever drugs I need to to think a business would invalidate the model line that pretty much stops them diving into bankruptcy.

 

A most "upgraded" as a model range.  At least "new stuff".  But dumping the forge organization as it currently works would be corporate suicide.

 

 

[The Unseen]

 

With leaks all across the board now I am glad I posted this thread. The SM Faction Focus was laughable and now with fluff of the Ultima Founding it is even more obvious that before.

 

Its funny - I got a different angle than you did from the focus, then. The Hellblaster squad, for example - is a Heavy Support option. Now let me ask you this - do you want to replace 5 LasCannons with a long-range Plasma Gun?

 

No. Not for one second.

 

I'll believe that Space Marines are getting "replaced" when I start smoking whatever drugs I need to to think a business would invalidate the model line that pretty much stops them diving into bankruptcy.

 

A most "upgraded" as a model range.  At least "new stuff".  But dumping the forge organization as it currently works would be corporate suicide.

 

 

 

 

Nobody is saying its going to happen fast. But how long do you think it'll take GW to release a kit for actual Primaris Devastators? Or a close combat version of the Jump Troops? Or giving them access to a mixed unit more like a standard Tactical Squad? I'm thinking not long. Why would they? People will buy the :cuss out of them, because their rules are better, their models are newer and bigger, and people, especially new-comers into 40k, are going to go with the Primaris marines. Of course GW isn't going to go take all their stored plastic and the molds they pay a lot of money for and go set them on fire, but give it an edition or 2, and their probably won't be any more non-primaris marine boxes at all. They'll spend the next few years selling off all their accumulated stock+whatever the molds have left in them, and just not make more molds. Just like you can't go onto GW's website and order 2nd edition metal models, eventually their going to phase the line out. Because it makes monetary sense to do so. Every person today who is currently buying marines, and would normally continue to buy more, is going to eventually be buying primaris marines at probably basically the same rate.

 

I'm sure that GW will take awhile, the fan backlash if they didn't would be enormous, but it's going to happen. All you people saying "And get rid of the cash cow? Ludicrous!" aren't paying attention. They aren't killing the marine line, their rescaling it so people with ungodly numbers of marines, myself included, have a reason to buy yet more, because their product doesn't spoil. Bar accidents, the tactical squad I bought 10 years ago will be fine to use literally forever. And that isn't how you stay in business.

But hey, at least the Primaris marines we'll all eventually be buying aren't "marine baby-carriage" centurion style.

[Grimtooth]

 

 

With leaks all across the board now I am glad I posted this thread. The SM Faction Focus was laughable and now with fluff of the Ultima Founding it is even more obvious that before.

Its funny - I got a different angle than you did from the focus, then. The Hellblaster squad, for example - is a Heavy Support option. Now let me ask you this - do you want to replace 5 LasCannons with a long-range Plasma Gun?

 

No. Not for one second.

 

I'll believe that Space Marines are getting "replaced" when I start smoking whatever drugs I need to to think a business would invalidate the model line that pretty much stops them diving into bankruptcy.

 

A most "upgraded" as a model range. At least "new stuff". But dumping the forge organization as it currently works would be corporate suicide.

 

The Primaris have already been said to be lacking heavy support and assault units which GW then laughably suggest will be filled by Tactical Squads. With the SM Faction Focus, you have been 100% been given what GW expects you to fill your Primaris heavy support with; Centurions and Predators. As for the much needed assault? GWs apparent answer is RG and dreadnoughts.

 

If you are thinking a single wound Dev Squad is the balancing act, you are failing to see the big picture that Normal SM are nothing in this edition, not even getting a footnote in the Faction Focus and being tossed aside for what will fit the Primaris standard.

[Verger]

I'm sure that GW will take awhile, the fan backlash if they didn't would be enormous, but it's going to happen. All you people saying "And get rid of the cash cow? Ludicrous!" aren't paying attention. They aren't killing the marine line, their rescaling it so people with ungodly numbers of marines, myself included, have a reason to buy yet more, because their product doesn't spoil. Bar accidents, the tactical squad I bought 10 years ago will be fine to use literally forever. And that isn't how you stay in business.

But hey, at least the Primaris marines we'll all eventually be buying aren't "marine baby-carriage" centurion style.

 

Thats essentially what I was getting at when I said "A most "upgraded" as a model range.", if they're going to do a line replacement.  This is exactly what they did during 3rd Edition and it did take a good while (couple years or so and even now that transfer isn't "complete" - 2nd Ed models are still in range) for things to slowly get converted across.

 

Even then I think its a slight stretch in the same way that Stormcasts didn't replace The Empire in Age Of Sigmar.  If they keep normal marines, they'll (probably) languish in the catalogue for ages like Sisters Of Battle, Empire and Dogs Of War have\did.

 

Currently we're all literally just jumping to conclusions.  There are zero firm facts about any of it and its going to take many months into 8th edition to see what fate befalls the normal Space Marine range.  All we know at the moment is that Primaris Marines, as they stand, won't play much like a normal Marine army with it being much smaller with more dedicated field roles.

[VengefulJan]

 

Its funny - I got a different angle than you did from the focus, then. The Hellblaster squad, for example - is a Heavy Support option. Now let me ask you this - do you want to replace 5 LasCannons with a long-range Plasma Gun?

 

Gotta agree.

 

Also, if you really want to you can make a classic marine version of the Hellblasters by just buying a 5 man Vet Squad (not a Sternguard, plane Vets) and equip them with plasma guns. They do the exact same thing, difference being that they have a range of 24" rather than 30" and only have 1 wound per model instead of 2... but hey, Power Weapons! That's something Hellblasters can't take.

[KiltedMarine]

Ramses, I have to disagree with your assertion that the wounds and the attack make Primaris worth the higher price.  I think frankly, with their organizational restrictions, they're over-costed at present.  And I don't think "baseline" Astartes (can we as a community come up with a standard term to use?) are as screwed as you think they are by comparison.

 

First, volume of fire is an issue.  Yes, Intercessors have longer range and a -1 save mod, but they're only throwing out 10 rounds a turn at 15".  A Tactical Squad by comparison is throwing 16 shots at 12", plus a heavy bolter out to 36" for another three plus a plasmagun (that no longer gets hot in base mode) for another 2 shots at the same range.  Since all of those weapons can split fire now, the Tactical Squad is far and away more flexible.  You can have the heavy weapons troopers in several squads focus fire on MCs and tanks while the other members of the units shoot at other infantry. 

 

As a fellow SW player, I know you're going to think in terms of GHs, who don't have heavies organic to their squads.  You still have the ability to take flamers, plasmaguns, or meltas in those squads, *and* presumably we're going to see that our troops are all carrying chainswords or combat knives, which means we get the same number of attacks as Primaris in cc, and if we receive a charge, we'll be able to fire flamers into oncoming units, which will be far more effective in overwatch than Bolt Rifles, all of this in a significantly less expensive unit that isn't as vulnerable to multiple-D inflicting weapons.

 

Point for point, I look forward to seeing how Astartes Veteris fare against Astartes Primaris.  I think the matchup will be more even than you might think.

[Tamiel]

Does anyone know how much a single oldmarine with a bolter costs, and how much an intessessor marine with a boltrifle costs?

[Grey Mage]

 

I wish to the All-father that you don't ever try and run a business!

 

There is a point where the value of an item is no longer worth the effort to produce said item. With Primaris the new standard for 8th Edition and GW, it will not be long that GW find no economic reasoning to keep producing the old Marines. I can sure as hell guarantee you that they won't keep supporting something that is ultimately losing them money. How many full RT armies do you see being played out there? How about full SM armies using the plastics from 3rd? I bought THREE of the big old box armies back in the day and they are ALL gone. Why doesn't GW do those anymore? Because some number cruncher checked the bottom line and they were not making GW any money. The same will happen when people are buying Primaris box sets in bulk to create their new upscaled SW/BA/BT/etc army and letting their old ones go by the wayside; partly for the aesthetics, but mostly because the old SM will be obsolete on the table

 

Im gonna disagree here Ramses, the stuff Im seeing has GW realzing theyve peaked and gone past the price to profit ratio.

 

Theyve been raising profits steadily for years, and losing customers. Thats somewhat acceptable as a company- theres a price point sweet spot where not everyone buys it but enough do, at a higher profit margin, that youve maxed out your profit potential.

 

Now theyre back tracking. We keep seeing two-faction boxes that have models in them at a discount. We see squadrons of light vehicles or artillery being sold at a discount. They are finding ways of making models cheaper to buy without actually admitting fault by reducing the price on individual kits.

 

The common thread in every 8th edition article has been 'weve been listening to your complaints and were going to do better, we promise'. Every single one.

 

FW and GW have both been relreleasing old kits, new version of old kits, and new versions of specialist games. They know the nostalgia factor and they know just how much it sells.

 

The current marine range isnt going to go poof, and it isnt going to be completely outclassed by the new primaris marines. Theres simply to much nostalgia and customer reluctance to do that overnight. 

 

"Death to the 1-x robot!"

"I love that 1-x robot!"

 

 

[Grimtooth]

Despite the idea that Tactical Marines with one special weapon and one heavy are somehow more flexible than a Russian contortionist, many of you still miss the point; standard SM are severely lacking in the enemies they will face in comparison to Primaris Marines facing those same enemies.

 

The Tactical SM stat line is an import from 7th while every other Faction Focus has shown us improved stats for other armies units. The Tactical SM gear has zero improvement in the face of every other Faction Focus showing us their gear. You people have this continued need to try and justify Tactica SM or even Dev SM to Primaris without ever even taking a look how Primaris as a whole will deal with other factions in comparison to how standard SM are going to get curb stomped by every other Faction.

 

That is why Primaris are the new standard. Every other Faction has been tuned/upgraded against the new Primaris Faction. The standard SM army looks to basically be left in the dust in comparison.

[Grimtooth]

 

 

 

I wish to the All-father that you don't ever try and run a business!

 

There is a point where the value of an item is no longer worth the effort to produce said item. With Primaris the new standard for 8th Edition and GW, it will not be long that GW find no economic reasoning to keep producing the old Marines. I can sure as hell guarantee you that they won't keep supporting something that is ultimately losing them money. How many full RT armies do you see being played out there? How about full SM armies using the plastics from 3rd? I bought THREE of the big old box armies back in the day and they are ALL gone. Why doesn't GW do those anymore? Because some number cruncher checked the bottom line and they were not making GW any money. The same will happen when people are buying Primaris box sets in bulk to create their new upscaled SW/BA/BT/etc army and letting their old ones go by the wayside; partly for the aesthetics, but mostly because the old SM will be obsolete on the table

 

Im gonna disagree here Ramses, the stuff Im seeing has GW realzing theyve peaked and gone past the price to profit ratio.

 

Theyve been raising profits steadily for years, and losing customers. Thats somewhat acceptable as a company- theres a price point sweet spot where not everyone buys it but enough do, at a higher profit margin, that youve maxed out your profit potential.

 

Now theyre back tracking. We keep seeing two-faction boxes that have models in them at a discount. We see squadrons of light vehicles or artillery being sold at a discount. They are finding ways of making models cheaper to buy without actually admitting fault by reducing the price on individual kits.

 

The common thread in every 8th edition article has been 'weve been listening to your complaints and were going to do better, we promise'. Every single one.

 

FW and GW have both been relreleasing old kits, new version of old kits, and new versions of specialist games. They know the nostalgia factor and they know just how much it sells.

 

The current marine range isnt going to go poof, and it isnt going to be completely outclassed by the new primaris marines. Theres simply to much nostalgia and customer reluctance to do that overnight.

 

"Death to the 1-x robot!"

"I love that 1-x robot!"

There have been far more numerous posts about people being excited to revive or build Chaos, Orcs, DE, IG, Eldar, and Nids armies than turn around and build an SM army. That does not include the people clamorong to build a Primaris army. So just with the sample size here on a forum DEDICATED to power armor aka SM, we are having mass defections from the "top selling" product line.

 

There is a reason why no one is excited about standard Marines.

[KiltedMarine]

First, you're exaggerating my argument unfairly. I said they're more flexible tactically than Primaris. I'm not writing a paean to Astartes Veteris, just pointing out that I think you're overlooking important aspects of the picture.

 

As for other units getting buffed, take power level/points cost into consideration. Those slick (with pus, no doubt) Plague Marines are 21 points a pop vs. 13 each for Tacticals (3 Marines to 2 Plaguemarines), and Rubrics (who got a huge buff, I agree) are now 18 points each (4 Marines to 3 Rubrics). Berzerkers are 16 each (five Marines for four 'zerkers). Those differences add up over a whole army, and Primaris costing 24 points each makes them 7 Veteris to 4 Primaris.

 

Yes, some units in other armies have gotten tougher. But we don't know that ours haven't yet. I think it's early to say that we're going to get roflstomped unless we jump on the Primaris bandwagon.

[Grey Mage]

 

 

 

I wish to the All-father that you don't ever try and run a business!

 

There is a point where the value of an item is no longer worth the effort to produce said item. With Primaris the new standard for 8th Edition and GW, it will not be long that GW find no economic reasoning to keep producing the old Marines. I can sure as hell guarantee you that they won't keep supporting something that is ultimately losing them money. How many full RT armies do you see being played out there? How about full SM armies using the plastics from 3rd? I bought THREE of the big old box armies back in the day and they are ALL gone. Why doesn't GW do those anymore? Because some number cruncher checked the bottom line and they were not making GW any money. The same will happen when people are buying Primaris box sets in bulk to create their new upscaled SW/BA/BT/etc army and letting their old ones go by the wayside; partly for the aesthetics, but mostly because the old SM will be obsolete on the table

Im gonna disagree here Ramses, the stuff Im seeing has GW realzing theyve peaked and gone past the price to profit ratio.

 

Theyve been raising profits steadily for years, and losing customers. Thats somewhat acceptable as a company- theres a price point sweet spot where not everyone buys it but enough do, at a higher profit margin, that youve maxed out your profit potential.

 

Now theyre back tracking. We keep seeing two-faction boxes that have models in them at a discount. We see squadrons of light vehicles or artillery being sold at a discount. They are finding ways of making models cheaper to buy without actually admitting fault by reducing the price on individual kits.

 

The common thread in every 8th edition article has been 'weve been listening to your complaints and were going to do better, we promise'. Every single one.

 

FW and GW have both been relreleasing old kits, new version of old kits, and new versions of specialist games. They know the nostalgia factor and they know just how much it sells.

 

The current marine range isnt going to go poof, and it isnt going to be completely outclassed by the new primaris marines. Theres simply to much nostalgia and customer reluctance to do that overnight.

 

"Death to the 1-x robot!"

"I love that 1-x robot!"

There have been far more numerous posts about people being excited to revive or build Chaos, Orcs, DE, IG, Eldar, and Nids armies than turn around and build an SM army. That does not include the people clamorong to build a Primaris army. So just with the sample size here on a forum DEDICATED to power armor aka SM, we are having mass defections from the "top selling" product line.

 

There is a reason why no one is excited about standard Marines.

 

Im sure your sunny disposition has helped retain them.

 

Every time weve had a change the same thing happens, and generally most of them come back six months later. Hell I skipped the entirety of 7nth edition because of where the company was going and now Im back.

 

Weve seen what, maybe a dozen units in total including the FW leviathin? Half of them so far have been Primaris.... I think we need a larger sample size.

 

And that Leviathin could take a Primaris-dread with its hands behind its back.

 

 

[Brother Christopher]

Does anyone know how much a single oldmarine with a bolter costs, and how much an intessessor marine with a boltrifle costs?

 

I don't know exactly, but I'll tell you what I've seen nonetheless. Maybe that'll be something to work with.

 

A regular Marine is 13 points (but I don't know anything about his stock wargear); a Primaris Marine is either 20 points or 24 points (this seems to include all equipment: frag and krak grenades and the rifle) - I saw two 'leaked' images showing these two point values.

[Verger]

Tactical Marines will also be better against heavier firepower.  Whilst 1 wound is easier to pop, its also much less painful when it does so. A 5 man Primaris Marine squad being hit by a Battle Cannon actually is going to lose more wounds (in total) than a 5 man Combat Squad.

At the moment - its not a straight up improvement and *if* they phase out the current line of marines - it'll be because there is a valid Primaris replacement and at that point, people with the older style of marines can just say "They're Primaris Marines" and their collection will still be valid.  The replacement has to be a analogue otherwise GW are seriously risking their business.

And if it *is* an analogue replacement, then there is nothing to get pent up about because you can still use all your models in the up-to-date meta.

[Tamiel]

Seems to me like GW just wanted to make money without actually putting in any effort.

They could have brought Squats back.
They could have introduced a whole new race or faction.
They could have added a new subfaction (like a new chaos God).
They could have given some unique troop models to Ynari aside from the HQs we got.
They could have made plastic sisters.

They could have modernized the CSM and Ork lines.

But they just added Taller Space Marines, which is the most creatively bankrupt and money-grabbing option they could have chosen.
What's the biggest player base? Space Marines.
What's the best way to make money? Make Space Marine players buy their armies again.
What's the easiest way to do that? Make Taller Space Marines and give them a better cost-value ratio.

They get to keep up appearances by saying "Oh don't worry, your old SMs are still going to get rules!" while slowly making them an obsolete choice. Meanwhile, they get to milk their largest customer base while shanking them in the back.

The cynical part of me says I'm going to be proven right about this. After everything GW has done in the past, I hardly see any other way for these events to unfold. If GW stops making small-marine models and discontinues the small-marine line in a few years, know that I was right.

And believe me, I hope I'm wrong.

[Verger]

This wouldn't be the first time they've done this, though, Tamiel.  Its the 3rd.  Happened once at the end of Rogue Trader and then again at the onset of 3rd.  Strangely enough with 8th edition, we're seeing another new "era" of rules with Marines to go with it and each time the scale jump was clear.

On some level, its almost tradition.

[Brother Christopher]

Tamiel, you managed to voice most of my objections (or worries) about the new Marine line. It feels wrong, or disgusting to do so, with so many other armies needing new plastic kits way more. And the background justification is appalling. I tried to convince myself that it is not, but it exemplifies this poor writing that becomes a staple of GW.

 

To me, this move on GW's part is such a disappointment that it makes me begin to understand what WHFB players felt when AoS was introduced.

 

But I still am hopeful that the new Marines won't be so much better than our regular, trusty Marines. 20-24 points for a New Tactical seems reasonablish. A larger regular squad of Marines, with some special weapons, may still be able to outperform GW's new boys.