geordie Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Ladies and Gentlemen, Rumour has it that there may be a retcon of the final battle between the Emperor and the Warmaster Horus. Be it a small retcon or a large one the tale of the final battle aboard the Vengeful Spirit is one of great import. The result is/was set in stone. Horus slays Sanguinius. The Emperor succeeds in defeating Horus, at great cost. What was once set in stone may take another twist. However I put to you all that this twist has been hidden in plain site for many years. Many of you may be familiar with the artwork of the final showdown between the Emperor and Horus, with the broken body of Sanguinius in the frame. Take a closer look at Sanguinius in this piece, in particular his mortal wound. Does this wound match either of the weapons Horus possesses? His claw would surely make more than one piercing and an inward wound at that? Worldbreaker would make a rather large dent one would suspect! Furthermore the wound appears to be made from behind, the armour ripping outwards, forwards. So a single piercing wound. Who possesses a weapon which could make such a mortal wound in this picture? The Emperor. Sanguinius bent his knee to Horus and was slain, from behind, by a single piercing thrust from the Emperors flaming sword. It's been there all along. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Kage Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Reasonable discussion better follow or this will get closed down in a hurry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4752355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elzender Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I'd prefer to think they would not change one of the defining traits of Sanguinius and his sons, but I'm going to take it as hypotetical game. If that was what happened, how would you explain Sanguinius broken sword? If the Emperor just stabbed him from behind, Sanguinius probably couldn't react, so there would be no need to break his sword. Maybe it was a gift from the Emperor, and Sanguinius broke it as a gesture of alliance to Horus? Then again, the single puncture could be from a single claw from Horus Talon. Regarding the outward opening of the wound, it wouldn't be surprising if the blades of the claws had a serrated edge (don't know the specific name, but is the same thing in many arrows and fish hooks) to increase the damage when pulling them out, causing the outward ripping of the armour. (I recall reading somewhere (maybe here in the forums) an alternative explanation where Sanguinius fell to the black rage and slayed Horus, and the Emperor had to put down the winged primarch. I don't remember how did the Emperor end up in the Golden Throne in that story, but I found it a nice, "fun" twist). Finally, the artistic license always has a role in these portrayals. You can see Horus and the Emperor are actually surrounded by soldiers from both sides, but I've never imagined anyone else present when the duel takes place, other than Ollanius Pious/intervening marine/custodes that stands to Horus (and then again, they would probably enter the room just in time to intervene, I don't imagine them just waiting there watching the battle until the Emperor needs help ). Edit: typos and silly mistakes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4752384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 You don't bleed from a flaming sword. /endthread Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4752443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ikka Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 It could just be that one of Horus' talons pierced further than the others, thus only the single visible wound. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4752449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 LOL, all this from a throw-away comment from Atia that was walked way back, and is now coming back as a fully-mutated spawn of chaos. Internet telephone is an interesting thing. Anyway, I question the core premise of the original post. When that was first illustrated, the background had Horus strangling Sanguinius. Given the size of that claw, the wound could easily have been caused by the thumb of the Talon which pinned down Sanguinius, and the remaining claws did the deed. Also, this suggests that GW planned this retcon all along, since the Rogue Trader era, and all the design and administrative changes of the company for these last few decades were smoke and mirrors. Illuminati, brah. The only way I can see the Emperor wounding Sanguinius in the final battle, is that Horus proceeded to kick the Emperor's ass, and Sanguinius revived in the final moments to hold Horus down, giving the Emperor the time to charge his Spirit Bomb. I would be okay with this, actually, because: A. Sanguinius gets to do a little more vs. Horus, rather than the old "chink in the armor" bit. B. Sanguinius and Horus both get caught in the blast, and thus both are erased and can maintain "never coming back" status. C. This would mean the dissolution of the old background that had the Emperor finally realize Horus' downfall after the later killed Ollanius/Imperial Fist/Custodes/whatever. This bit always struck me as too romanticized for 40K, since the the Emperor never struck me as a sentimental guy. If we take some of the events of the HH books at face value, the Emperor basically knew a betrayal and general Chaos shenanigans were incoming*, so I just don't see him being all, "No, it can't be! Not my boy!", even if he did spend a lot of time with Horus. *This foreknowledge is why I think the Emperor never warned his sons about Chaos, and was so seemingly unreasonable at Nikaea, he knew a betrayal was coming and wanted to keep the inevitable source of the betrayal hidden as long as possible while he completed his grand design. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4752479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0nolith Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Has anyone seen Martin Scorsese the Last Temptation? I would love and elongated what if vision of the future like in the end of that movie instead of just a direct battle between Horus and E-Diddy. What if The Emperor blasts a vision to Horus of what would happen to him and the galaxy if he won, pretty much affirming that vision of the cabal where Horus' leftover honour and regret consumes him which causes anothe war that ends the Human species. Horus realizing his fault accepts his fate and let's The Emperor take his life. Come on folks, if we're going to play this game, let's have some fun! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4752516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Sanguinius falls heavy to the ground, tossed aside like a broken ragdoll by his errant brother, as the Emperor strides into the room. Though his vision is wavering and clouded by blood, Sanguinius watches the light of his father approach the darkness his brother had become. He spits his last words as a curse, "My duty is done, traitor, your fate is sealed!" Suddenly both the Emperor and Horus turn towards him and start laughing. To Sanguinius' mounting horror, they both peel their faces away to reveal Alpharius' and Omegon' mirrored visage. As the last of his lifesblood spills on the cold deck, their laughter echoes in Sangunius' ears as the cold void takes him. Fade to black. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4752526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Ladies and Gentlemen, Rumour has it that there may be a retcon of the final battle between the Emperor and the Warmaster Horus. Be it a small retcon or a large one the tale of the final battle aboard the Vengeful Spirit is one of great import. The result is/was set in stone. Horus slays Sanguinius. The Emperor succeeds in defeating Horus, at great cost. What was once set in stone may take another twist. However I put to you all that this twist has been hidden in plain site for many years. Many of you may be familiar with the artwork of the final showdown between the Emperor and Horus, with the broken body of Sanguinius in the frame. Take a closer look at Sanguinius in this piece, in particular his mortal wound. Does this wound match either of the weapons Horus possesses? His claw would surely make more than one piercing and an inward wound at that? Worldbreaker would make a rather large dent one would suspect! Furthermore the wound appears to be made from behind, the armour ripping outwards, forwards. So a single piercing wound. Who possesses a weapon which could make such a mortal wound in this picture? The Emperor. Sanguinius bent his knee to Horus and was slain, from behind, by a single piercing thrust from the Emperors flaming sword. It's been there all along. Okay. Oh. My. God. It is an analysis of a picture, which has no binding power over canon. But :cuss dude, you really put me through the ringer there! Couple things though. I cant actually see the mortal wound. I enlarged, but cant see it. I've been familiar with it for many years, but man that is the kind of thing that really makes me happy. What a heretical, devious thing to ponder. I still dont see it as a total Thing, but....man that is cool to think about. And I have not read the thread as I type this. Bravo, Geordie. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4752536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1000 Sons Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 The HH books have added so much new fluff to the story it will certainly have some new additions. I think we will have some new battles and characters appear on the vengeful spirit before the final dual doing some cool things. The final dual might have a few new cameos of certain people but I think the major events will still happen, sang dead, horus smashed, and emp near death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4752583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 This story really made my day... thanks . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4752634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine God Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 You don't bleed from a flaming sword. /endthread You don't bleed from a lightsaber either, but it happened in Mos Eisley Cantina. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4752841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Interesting theory. I emphasise the word THEORY. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4752853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpAcEGhOsT095 Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 It's no rumor, Laurie J Goulding has said that they were going to change the fight but ran out of time for the Visions of Heresy book. Over on the first expedition in a similar thread he also said that the emperor was left a "blasted carcass" from that fight. So I doubt that the emperor will be holding back when he faces Lupercal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4753561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 He's a skull sack now so I fail to see much of a difference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4753897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 In 60 years marines are retconed to carry radios instead of bolters and Ferrus goes missing at Istvaan after Fulgrim hugs him and confronts him about his feelings Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4753934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordo Machinum Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Here's a thought...Sanguinius kneels before Horus, as a sign he will not fight him (Sang knowing he had seen his own death at this time and may still be trying to prevent it). Sanguinius psy-blasts the future vision of the Dark Imperium to Horus. The Emperor arrives, mistakenly thinking Sanguinius is turning his allegiance to his brother and (perhaps having had the same vision of Sang's death, knows it must happen) pierces his sword through Sanguinius' back. The EPIC BATTLE between the Emperor and Horus ensues. Horus gets annihilated, the Emperor is a burnt out husk. Sanguinius, still barely alive, reaches out to both of their minds and spirits. It's too late for Horus, but the Emperor realizing he must survive, psychically transfers his psychic essence into the body of Sanguinius. Both entities are in Sanguinius' body. Dorn arrives, Emperor/Sanguinius explains what has happened. It is Sanguinius' body that has been placed on the Golden Throne. Both minds trapped, perhaps even struggling. This is why the Black Rage has worsened over the millennia. Sanguinius is still linked to his Blood Angels. They feel his rage still because he IS STILL ALIVE! Hmm, will he somehow arise from the throne perhaps? Guilliman's meeting with the "Emperor" may have been a surprise if he realized it was Sanguinius on the Throne. [edit: if GW does this, I will be obligated to build a full Blood Angels army.] Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4753940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Alpharius did it... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4753945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 It's no rumor, Laurie J Goulding has said that they were going to change the fight but ran out of time for the Visions of Heresy book. It's not a rumour in the sense that it was never a rumour - it was a posted comment on Atia's blog (not even a rumour post; just a comment in the threads under an unrelated rumour) that has been misunderstood and taken out of context. It's also not true. No one's retconning Horus, Sanguinius, and the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4754354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpAcEGhOsT095 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 I don't know what the rumor was about on Atias blog. I was just saying that how the fight has been portrayed in canon isn't how it will play out, with the Emperor holding back not wanting to kill Horus. Apologies for any confusion I may have caused. Edit for spelling Edit two I think I really missed the context of this thread and replied thinking it was just a regular discussion about the fight. I'll shut up now and go back to lurking. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4754484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
civsmitty Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 It's no rumor, Laurie J Goulding has said that they were going to change the fight but ran out of time for the Visions of Heresy book. It's not a rumour in the sense that it was never a rumour - it was a posted comment on Atia's blog (not even a rumour post; just a comment in the threads under an unrelated rumour) that has been misunderstood and taken out of context. It's also not true. No one's retconning Horus, Sanguinius, and the Emperor. ADB a part of the conspiracy confirmed Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4754512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 I don't know what the rumor was about on Atias blog. I was just saying that how the fight has been portrayed in canon isn't how it will play out, with the Emperor holding back not wanting to kill Horus. Apologies for any confusion I may have caused. Edit for spelling That's a good point, though. The problem (well, "problem") is that there's never been a solid absolute canon for the scene. What we do have is everyone variously convinced that whatever they've read at Point X is what was the original canon, and anything else is a change. Like, you see people talking about how it was originally Ollanius Pius, then it was changed to a Custodian, then it became an Imperial Fist Terminator, and so on. But even that's not accurate, it's just that the most compelling angle is that the patron saint of the Imperial Guard stood up to Horus, etc. etc. It's a great myth for the Guard, obviously, and very real in terms of how legends get made (and in keeping with the mythic, unknown nature of 40K, with so much being based on ignorance and deceit. Now, obviously, it'll show up. Dan introduced Pius and that character was always going to be an electric presence for fans. But then there are still conflicting resources for the final fight (especially embraced to memehood in the fandom) where the Emperor was or wasn't holding back; where Sanguinius opened the chink in the armour or he didn't and that's just Blood Angel/Imperial legend to honour him; whether the Emperor held back until he saw Pius/the Imperial Fist/the Custodian die and only then realised Horus had truly fallen, etc. The huge issue with the last one being how popular the idea of Pius in that role is, despite it making absolutely no sense at all. "Oh, you killed Sanguinius? Damn, man, you're standing all in his blood and stuff. Oh, well. Wait, no! NOOOO! NOT A NAMELESS HUMAN! Why, Horus, why? I see now you're really evil..." That's the trick. People tend to cling to their preferred version or first memories as This Was Canon, when this particular slice of mythic madness never really had anything set in stone, and even the first public explanations were noted as being shrouded in myth or contradicted soon after. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4754519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpAcEGhOsT095 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 The fight will be a difficult one to write about, it's probably the most difficult thing in 40k lore. Thinking about this topic has led me to wonder about the Astronomican. Malcador had to hold the webway gate. Did he also have to direct the Astronomican too? Or did the Emperor still have to direct it while fighting Horus? Edit for spelling Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4754650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 On the one hand, I'm happy to read Aarons post about the fight not getting retconned as we might fear now. On the other hand, I'd hoped for something like this, with Horus being Vader, Sangi being Luke and the Emperor being Palpatine (with the slight difference that everyone (nearly) dies ) Sangi saying: "Father, I cannot kill him. He's my brother...your son! There has to be another way!" Big E: "If you are not with me, than you are my enemy as well, number IX!" *Horus jumps at Emperor, trying to save Sangi but it is futile. Sangi is dead. In a last all-in strike does Horus mortally wound his father, giving everything to avenge his most beloved brother. Horus is perished and the Emperor survives barely. He blames Horus for Sangis death, making the son he had killed, a martyr for the masses* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4754663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Angel Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 I'm not aware of any retcon, and as Aaron has pointed out, clearly nothing will be changing regarding the climactic and well loved battle. And obviously the heroic intruder whom Horus strikes down will be fleshed out when the authors get to that battle. I have however heard a rumor/fact stated via the owner of my local store: Every Primarch is coming back. He refused to give any more detail regarding this however it opens up more opportunities and interesting concepts and I am eager to see if this will come to fruition and more interestingly, how they will bring these primarchs back, i.e: Ferrus Manus seems pretty dead. As does Sanguinius and Horus. Alpharius Omegon can be believed as only one of the brothers was killed by Dorn? However they're the masters of deception, it could be a marine whom looks like Alpharius. Others, like Dorn, can be expained as returning with a bionic hand. Some interesting stuff, so will be interesting to see what happens in the written Horus vs E-Dawg fight. On a side note, Aaron, only recently got around to reading and finishing The First Heretic. Phenomenal work, loved it! Ending was superb! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333873-horus-v-emperor-retcon/#findComment-4754692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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