Nova_Dew Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 The Khorne thing was heavily hinted at with the 7e dex fluff, same as having the hive fleet eyeing up Baal. i just wonder what is going to happen to the BA's now the Ball system is dead. people say they can recruit else where, but Baal is the Blood Angels as much as the Blood Angels are Baal and will that loss drive us over the threshold... only time will te... (gets a visit from a Chaplin "those words will not be uttered heretic" bang!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4762339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venerable Jazzman Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Ok, reading that, i would suggest that it wasn't Guilleman saved Baal, it was Ka'bhanda, and that would make a lot of sense. Ka'bhanda wants revenge on the Blood Angels, but he's one of Khorne's finest, so there's no glory in him beating a weak opponent - he needs us at our strongest, to prove his own strength. He watched the whole fall of Baal, and when it became clear we couldn't win, he unleashed hell on the Nids, either by warp rift or daemons. Whichever, it was enough to remove the threat. Guilleman just turned up for the cake afterwards. Baal will be rebuilt and repopulated (maybe with the peeps from Armageddon that saw Chaos the first time round - that would be a nice callback ), we'll get our recruits back on line, with the added bonus that the Nids hoovered up the irradiated desert, so maybe we'll have better genestock to play with, and all the empty red spaces will be filled. Then we can mourn our dead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4762343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasuria Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 @Brother Jazzman : I fully agree with you on the fact that it seems that Ka'bhanda saved us more than Guilleman did, and that in a twisted 'warplike' way it makes sense. Honestly what annoys me the most is that I'd kinda like to see my beloved chapter win on their own ... for a change ... We've needed the help of Necrons, now Chaos ... what's next ? At some point you have to wonder if we really deserve to continue to live since we are apparently unable to do anything by ourselves >< (sorry, I'm not trying to be a bummer but with this new edition it kind of keep piling up ^^") Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4762381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Ok, reading that, i would suggest that it wasn't Guilleman saved Baal, it was Ka'bhanda, and that would make a lot of sense. Ka'bhanda wants revenge on the Blood Angels, but he's one of Khorne's finest, so there's no glory in him beating a weak opponent - he needs us at our strongest, to prove his own strength. He watched the whole fall of Baal, and when it became clear we couldn't win, he unleashed hell on the Nids, either by warp rift or daemons. Whichever, it was enough to remove the threat. Guilleman just turned up for the cake afterwards. Baal will be rebuilt and repopulated (maybe with the peeps from Armageddon that saw Chaos the first time round - that would be a nice callback ), we'll get our recruits back on line, with the added bonus that the Nids hoovered up the irradiated desert, so maybe we'll have better genestock to play with, and all the empty red spaces will be filled. Then we can mourn our dead. Can't like this enough :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4762398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venerable Jazzman Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 @Brother Jazzman : I fully agree with you on the fact that it seems that Ka'bhanda saved us more than Guilleman did, and that in a twisted 'warplike' way it makes sense. Honestly what annoys me the most is that I'd kinda like to see my beloved chapter win on their own ... for a change ... We've needed the help of Necrons, now Chaos ... what's next ? At some point you have to wonder if we really deserve to continue to live since we are apparently unable to do anything by ourselves >< (sorry, I'm not trying to be a bummer but with this new edition it kind of keep piling up ^^") Marines shouldn't be able to win on their own though, they never have. The Imperial Guard do the heavy dying, Space Marines do the specialist warfare, the 5-man stuff that takes out a commander or kills a Warboss, or 10-man counter-assaults once they've identified a weak point in the enemy. Marines were never intended to defend planets against hordes. Yes, defend one point against anything that gets through the Guard's lines, but not defend all of it. Everywhere. At once. I'm surprised we did as well as we did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4762411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paikis Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Do we actually know it's Guilliman showing up? The only bit of text I've read simply says it's an imperial fleet. Is there more I haven't read yet? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4762691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTaW Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 It is definitely Guilliman, there's a final page that states how he rolls up and helps kill the rest of the Tyranids on Baal (which were enough to overthrow its defenders before the Crusade's arrival). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4762693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Fancy Pants Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 I completely agree with point one. There was so much build up! The Cryptus supplement and the novel Dante created such great hype that to have such an short blurb reveal the conclusion is sad and truly unfitting. I hope they release a novel detailing the incident so we can understand what happened at a more intricate level. Dante expected help from all chapters except the Lamenters and the Angels Vermillion. None the less, it appears the latter ended up coming to the help of their primogenitors. My guess is that they showed up without the invite. Also not a fan of the Khorne bit thrown in there but interested at its implications. I assume that the second book of the Dante trilogy will flesh out the details. With the third part focusing on whatever happens once they get to Terra Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4762716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTaW Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Whoa whoa whoa, Dante is the first in a trilogy?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4762726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Fancy Pants Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Whoa whoa whoa, Dante is the first in a trilogy?! The next one is called "Devastation of Baal". The third one isn't announced, but considering how much further Dante's arc is expected to take him, I assume a third one will get written. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4762734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTaW Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Oh, I know about the second. I thought the third was more than speculation for a second there. Not saying it won't happen just don't want to get too excited if it isn't official. Dante was excellent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4762740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasuria Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Marines shouldn't be able to win on their own though, they never have. The Imperial Guard do the heavy dying, Space Marines do the specialist warfare, the 5-man stuff that takes out a commander or kills a Warboss, or 10-man counter-assaults once they've identified a weak point in the enemy. Marines were never intended to defend planets against hordes. Yes, defend one point against anything that gets through the Guard's lines, but not defend all of it. Everywhere. At once. I'm surprised we did as well as we did. The fact that we are a "shock & awe" focused army does not prevent us from being able to take a stand and hold a position. But I do take your point, and I actually agree with it : the GI are way better equipped than us to do that job. What I meant by "by ourselves" was more "as an Imperium army, counting only on Imperium ressources", opposed to "needed a Deus Ex Machina in form of Xenos to save us". Honestly it's just too much for me. The fact that we needed the Necrons in the Shield of Baal, the Chaos now ... and if you take into account the BL books (the infamous Swallow's one ...) we actually got pushed back all the way to Sanguinius' tomb twice in what, the span of 2 or 3 years ? Each of these taken separately would have been fine I think, but everything together is just too much for me. Again with all of that the true miracle is that there is still BA *in spite of apparently our best efforts to kill ourselves*. Anyway, I just probably need some time to process everything, and hopefully we will have something a little more developed than this blurb to explain what happens :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4762971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Folks, I know it may seem innocuous on a BA sub-forum, but can we avoid using meme-slang for Guilliman and Ultramarines (and the rest for that matter) please? Sadly, the jovial natural of the comments don't convey well in text format (similar to sarcasm) resulting in people getting worked up over Faction-bashing. Please remain as respectful as possible on this board. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4763670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCagh Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Where are people getting Ka'Bandha helping the Blood Angels from? I see that there is a shrine made of Tyranid skulls to him on Baal Primus, but to take that, and expand it to a Bloodthirster knowingly helping his greatest enemy so he can be the one to kill them later is a pretty massive leap. Where are people getting Ka'Bantha's intentions from? Or that he himself was even there? It's just a shrine dedicated to him. Seems like a lot of conclusions being drawn based on like ten sentences that reads like a codex entry on side panel of a rule book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4763860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted May 31, 2017 Author Share Posted May 31, 2017 I see it as Khorne doesn't want tb galaxy to be snuffed out considering he gets his power from war and rage. He's likely to sabotage any victory that would end war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4763882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mapple Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Tyranids don't feed the chaos gods and Khorne has a vested interest in keeping the warfare between the imperium and other warp sensitive races going. Just like how there's no excess for Slaneesh to thirst for if all emotive beings are snuffed out. There's a reason the chaos gods want more beings in the warp like their servants. So chaos factions being used by their gods to keep the warp aware alive makes sense. It's why Magus's breach of the webway at Terra was so catastrophic... It set back plans of the Emperor to remove humanity from the influence of the warp. Also, the reason for the imperial truth denying the existence of supernatural or warp forces. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4763952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sockwithaticket Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Where are people getting Ka'Bandha helping the Blood Angels from? I see that there is a shrine made of Tyranid skulls to him on Baal Primus, but to take that, and expand it to a Bloodthirster knowingly helping his greatest enemy so he can be the one to kill them later is a pretty massive leap. Where are people getting Ka'Bantha's intentions from? Or that he himself was even there? It's just a shrine dedicated to him. Seems like a lot of conclusions being drawn based on like ten sentences that reads like a codex entry on side panel of a rule book. No one's getting it from anywhere; that is the only source material at the moment, so people are having fun trying to extrapolate things from it or suggesting potential narratives. Nothing in this thread is gospel except the actual text and that itself may (hopefully) not be the full story, merely the official version of events. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4764077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCagh Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 For those wondering about the strength of Baal's defenses, I found a good quote in the Dante novel. Dante lists off a bunch of successor chapters who he has contacted and then says 'I calculate a certainty of five thousand Adeptus Astartes to defend Baal, and perhaps as many as fifteen thousand, should they respect their oaths of blood and fellowship as scions of the Great Angel.' It's worth nothing that just prior to this he says the Blood Angels alone are 'a little over three-quarters full strength owing our recent losses here [Cryptus] and at Armageddon.' and they can 'bring our strength back up to four-fifths within a month' by pulling out all the stops with their neophytes. This all happened before Diamor campaign (Angel's Blade supplement). So add the casualties there plus Cadia Also he says the Blood Drinkers send four companies, but the Angels Encarmine and Flesh Tearers bring the entire Chapter. No other specific numbers, but it's worth noting that not every single Blood Angel Successor shows up in it's entirety. Also, the author of the Dante novel, Guy Haley, is also writing the Devastation of Baal sequel. So I expect the numbers to somewhat line up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4765221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helias_Tancred Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 The text in the Imperium Army List book states that the Lamenters failed to show up. I'm going to assume they are either dead or still on their penance crusade? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4765280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Contact lost, rumoured destroyed at the last count. Might have been 'Nids they ran into but can't remember (pretty sure it's on the internet somewhere though :) ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4765368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 They are on a penitance crusade. To me it would cheapen the punishment if they were able to leave it to go and do what they want. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4766025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCagh Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 From the novel Dante regarding the Lamenters; 'I have contacted the Lamenters. They responded unfavorably. If they were of a mind to obey our call, they are too depleted to help us,' said Dante. 'It is a sign of the bond between the Chapters of the Blood that they are the only ones to say no. While such brotherhood persists, we might prevail.' I'm not sure what he meant by a sign of the bond after saying the Lamenters refused. But after reading Cleon's comment, maybe he is okay with them not showing up because they are on a penance crusade. And no true Sons of Sanguinius would break their oaths to the Imperium, even if it is to protect their homeworld. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4766172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unseen Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 While that's probably also true, that Dante respects their decision, he is commenting on the fact that the Lamenters are the only cousin to NOT answer the call to defend Baal. That's a lot of chapters saying yes, like 25 or so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4766199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCagh Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 He gives an actual number a little later in the conversation, I posted it a little further up the page. But you're correct, he says every Chapter save the Lamenters. Which is what the information leaked says as well. It's kind of weird that a codex/rulebook entry agrees perfectly with a BL novel. Usually they are little (or a lot) contradictory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4766266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sockwithaticket Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 In fairness they probably didn't need the hugely understrength Lamenters and their bad luck juju spoling the party anyway.. When he says it proves the bond, I think he simply means that of the many chapters asked to answer the call only one declined and that ain't too shabby. Hell, the Knights of Blood showed up and they weren't even asked (that's what I've gleaned from the interwebs, haven't read Dante yet). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333952-fate-of-baal/page/7/#findComment-4766525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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