8th Edition Rules/Datasheets for BAs leaked

[tkni]

Actually, checking back over the Core Rules leaks, the 'Supreme Command' detachment requires only 3 HQs, and gives a command point.

 

So we're almost back to a 5th (?) edition 1-3 slot...!

[Indefragable]

Ok, here's Dante compared to Abaddon so we can better start wrapping our heads around where power levels stack up:

 

Commander Dante
Power 11
M    WS    BS    S    T    W    A    LD    Sv
12”    2+    2+    4    4    6    6    9    2+
single model armed with the Axe Mortalis, an Inferno Pistol, frag grenades, and krak grenades. Only one per army

Inferno pistol        6” Pistol 1 S8 AP-4 D: D6 If target within half range, roll 2D6 for damage and discard the             lowest result
The Axe Mortalis    Melee S+2 AP-3 D: D3 You can re-roll failed wound rolls for this weapon if the target is a Character
Frag grenade    6” Grenade D6 S3 AP0 D1
Krak grenade    6” Grenade 1 S6 Ap-1 D3

Abilities
And They Shall Know No Fear (pg 88) (re-rolls failed Morale tests)
Chapter Master: You can re-roll failed hit rolls for friendly Blood Angels within 6” of Commander Dante
Jump Pack Assault: During deployment, you can set up Commander Dante high in the skies instead of placing him on the battlefield. At the end of any of you Movement phases Commander Dante can assault from above —set him up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9” away from any enemy models.
Death Mask: Enemy units suffer a -1 Modifier to their Leadership while they are within 3” of any models wearing a death mask
Iron Halo: Commander Dante has a 4++ invulnerable save

Faction Keywords: Imperium Adeptus Astartes, Blood Angels
Keyword: Character, Infantry, Chapter Master, Jump Pack, Fly, Commander Dante


Compare to

from ( https://imgur.com/a/kPLQc#AJkNGFx )
Abaddon the Despoiler
Power (cut off)
M    WS    BS    S    T    W    A    LD    Sv
6”    2+    2+    4    5    7    6    10    2+
single model armed with Drach’nyen and the Talon of Horus. One per army

(name cut off ):     24” Rapid Fire 2 S4 AP-1 D:D3
(name cut off ):     Melee S+1 AP-3 D:D3 Roll a D6 each time Abaddon the Despoiler fights. ON a 1 he suffers a mortal wound and cannot use this             weapon further during this page. On a 2+ he can make this many additional attacks with this weapon
(name cut off ):    Melee Sx2 AP-3 D:D3
Death to the False Emperor (rumored to mean that 6’s To Hit in combat give 1 additional melee attack)
Dark Destiny: Abaddon has a 4++ insulin save. In addition, all damage suffered by Abaddon the Despoiler is halved (rounded up).
Lord of the Black Legion: You may re-roll any failed hit rolls for friendly Black Legion units that are within 6” of Abaddon
Mark of Chaos Ascendant: Friendly Heretic Astartes units automatically pass Morale tests whilst they are within 12” of Abaddon
Teleport Strike: During deployment, you can set up Abaddon the Despoiler in a teleportarium chamber instead of placing him on the battlefield. At the end of of any your Movement phases Abaddon can use a teleport strike to arrive on the battlefield - set him up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9” away from any enemy unit.

Faction Keywords: Chaos, Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Heretic Astartes, Black Legion
Keywords: Character, Infantry, Chaos Lord, Terminator, Abaddon the Despoiler

 

Discuss! Speculate! Gripe ! Rejoice!

[Damon Nightman]

I wonder if the strength bonus stacks if you have multiple priests around?

[The Unseen]

Abaddon wipes the floor with him.

 

If my rough math is correct, since charges no longer matter, since both guys will still be standing after first turn:

Dante: Causes on average 2.2 wounds to Abby per turn. Would be 3.33 if not for Dark Destiny meaning d3 wounds is actually 1,1,2

Abby with fist: Average of 3.33

Abby with Drachyen: Average of .56 wounds per attack, so 3.33 base, plus .56 wounds for however many extra attacks you roll for, and if you manage to roll a 5 or 6, Abby on average one-shots Dante, dealing 6.1 wounds ish. I think even if you roll a 1 every turn, Abby still wins thanks to his 1 extra wound, but it's close; assuming otherwise average dice.

 

This is assuming their bubble of re-roll hits doesn't effect them, but if it does, Abby gets more use out of it. Then he would swing 5 attacks with a fist, and 1+D6 with Drachyen, since everyone can split their attacks with their weapons as they choose, and with a re-roll, the fist is slightly better than the sword, but you still want to use 1 attack with Drachyen to activate its special rule.

 

They have similar special rules, Abby's morale ignoring bubble is slightly better than the -1 enemy leadership from Dante's Death Mask, both give re-rolls to everything within 6, both can deep strike. Dante takes the edge with mobility and a little bit better shooting, but Abby is much much tougher with Dark Destiny and an extra wound.

All in all, if Dante is about 2/3 to 3/4 the price of Abby, I'd be happy.

*Goes to check points*

Edit: Of course not, he costs 85% what Abby does.

Edited May 30, 2017 by The Unseen

[tkni]

I wonder if the strength bonus stacks if you have multiple priests around?

 

Neither that ("while they are within range of any sanguinary priests") nor the revive ("a unit can only be the target of the ability once per turn") appear to, sadly.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Abaddon wipes the floor with him.

 

If my rough math is correct, since charges no longer matter, since both guys will still be standing after first turn:

Dante: Causes on average 2.2 wounds to Abby per turn. Would be 3.33 if not for Dark Destiny meaning d3 wounds is actually 1,1,2

Abby with fist: Average of 3.33

Abby with Drachyen: Average of .56 wounds per attack, so 3.33 base, plus .56 wounds for however many extra attacks you roll for, and if you manage to roll a 5 or 6, Abby on average one-shots Dante, dealing 6.1 wounds ish. I think even if you roll a 1 every turn, Abby still wins thanks to his 1 extra wound, but it's close; assuming otherwise average dice.

 

This is assuming their bubble of re-roll hits doesn't effect them, but if it does, Abby gets more use out of it. Then he would swing 5 attacks with a fist, and 1+D6 with Drachyen, since everyone can split their attacks with their weapons as they choose, and with a re-roll, the fist is slightly better than the sword, but you still want to use 1 attack with Drachyen to activate its special rule.

 

They have similar special rules, Abby's morale ignoring bubble is slightly better than the -1 enemy leadership from Dante's Death Mask, both give re-rolls to everything within 6, both can deep strike. Dante takes the edge with mobility and a little bit better shooting, but Abby is much much tougher with Dark Destiny and an extra wound.

All in all, if Dante is about 2/3 to 3/4 the price of Abby, I'd be happy.

*Goes to check points*

Edit: Of course not, he costs 85% what Abby does.

did you factor in the inferno pistol?

[Valerian]

Other than in the Shooting phase prior to close combat, Dante wouldn't get to use it. He'd be dead before he got to the next friendly Shooting phase.

[OrbOfAntioch]

My whole army got nerfed?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Other than in the Shooting phase prior to close combat, Dante wouldn't get to use it. He'd be dead before he got to the next friendly Shooting phase.

He quoted them both still standing after the first turn, thus he would get 2 shots off.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

My whole army got nerfed?

 

I don't think nerfed, but different. Tactics and ways of thinking the game will definitely have to evolve.

 

Taking a step back and a deep breath, the leaked stuff looks pretty balanced to me. That balancing act no doubt involves inflicting apparent nerfs onto a lot of stuff. But you have to take it all into context such as, for example, the fact that jump packs deep striking no longer scatter and can assault out of deep strike. Granted, you've got to make a 9" charge but still a significant improvement IMO.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

 

 

My whole army got nerfed?

I don't think nerfed, but different. Tactics and ways of thinking the game will definitely have to evolve.

 

Taking a step back and a deep breath, the leaked stuff looks pretty balanced to me. That balancing act no doubt involves inflicting apparent nerfs onto a lot of stuff. But you have to take it all into context such as, for example, the fact that jump packs deep striking no longer scatter and can assault out of deep strike. Granted, you've got to make a 9" charge but still a significant improvement IMO.

8" charge

[Indefragable]

 

My whole army got nerfed?

 

I don't think nerfed, but different. Tactics and ways of thinking the game will definitely have to evolve.

 

Taking a step back and a deep breath, the leaked stuff looks pretty balanced to me. That balancing act no doubt involves inflicting apparent nerfs onto a lot of stuff. But you have to take it all into context such as, for example, the fact that jump packs deep striking no longer scatter and can assault out of deep strike. Granted, you've got to make a 9" charge but still a significant improvement IMO.

 

 

I'm guessing that a future book will add Detachments/Formations/whatever they are called these days that let's BA re-roll charges or DS within 6" of enemies or something like that. It is interesting how the rules across the board make Charging slightly harder (potentially infinite Overwatch et al), yet there are less restrictions to when/where you can Charge in general (after disembarking, after DS, etc...). So overall things could pan out evenly

[Paikis]

 

 

My whole army got nerfed?

I don't think nerfed, but different. Tactics and ways of thinking the game will definitely have to evolve.

 

Taking a step back and a deep breath, the leaked stuff looks pretty balanced to me. That balancing act no doubt involves inflicting apparent nerfs onto a lot of stuff. But you have to take it all into context such as, for example, the fact that jump packs deep striking no longer scatter and can assault out of deep strike. Granted, you've got to make a 9" charge but still a significant improvement IMO.

8" charge

 

 

9" charge.

 

You must set up more than 9 inches away from enemy models. If you're 9.001" away and need to get to less than 1" away, then rolling an 8 would still leave you 1.001" away and you don't make it.

[Brother_Angelus]

Jeez, a lot of pessimism in the house.

 

With all the re-rolls and +1 attacks flying around, combined with striking first on the charge I thought people would be happy?

[Indefragable]

Jeez, a lot of pessimism in the house.

 

With all the re-rolls and +1 attacks flying around, combined with striking first on the charge I thought people would be happy?

 

Give us time to process :)

 

Need to see how it all shakes out, but so far it seems like we've lost quite a bit of our unique flavor. Will be interesting to see if Space Wolves are now "just" hairy vanilla SM in the way that we are vanilla SM with some special units and wargear.

[Brother_Angelus]

But Heavy Flamer Devs are in, so we have that going for us, which is nice.

[Red-beard]

 

But none of the characters are part of the unit and look out sir doesn't exist. Which means it won't be too difficult to get to a point where those characters get picked off with shooting due to positioning

They mentioned that even though there is no look out sir anymore, there are still bodyguard units like command squads, tyrant guards etc that can draw wounds from the characters near them.

And if that fails, you can always hide.

 

 

The assault cannon has 12 shots, but it's a heavy weapon. That means -1BS when moving and shooting. So we're hitting on 4+, meaning only 6 hits on average. 

[Valerian]

 

Other than in the Shooting phase prior to close combat, Dante wouldn't get to use it. He'd be dead before he got to the next friendly Shooting phase.

He quoted them both still standing after the first turn, thus he would get 2 shots off.

 

 

Nah, Dante doesn't get a chance to fire his inferno pistol in close combat with Abbadon, even if Dante launches the assault (probable, given his higher Movement).  Even if Abbadon uses only the Talon of Horus, and doesn't bother splitting any attacks to use Drachyen, he's doing an average of 6.6 Wounds to Dante (thus killing him) in two Fight phases.  One Fight phase in the Blood Angels turn, one Fight phase in the Chaos Space Marine turn, and no chance (going by averages) to get back to the Blood Angels' turn where Dante could finally attempt to shoot that Pistol.

 

Of course, not of that accounts for either Dante or Abbadon shooting at each other prior to launching assaults; we're assuming they were both appropriately bubble-wrapped prior to getting into close combat.

[durdle-durdle]

I wouldn't worry too much about pods going up in price. They now do the same thing as just equipping your marines with jump packs. So outside of sternguard and the few things like that, we really don't need drop pods all that much any more. The rhino price increase makes sense too now that you consider they'll be actually usable. Sanguinary guard look baller. I like the standard bearer characters. Captain is useful again. Priests are a good buffing unit to go with death company/your favorite assault unit. I would've liked engines to give us the "no loss of ballistic skill when moving" similar to dark eldar , but I'm still okay with it. I think mech infantry or even a tank army can work out pretty good. The chaplain does what he do. Lemartes is a bit disappointing, leading me to believe the death co chaplain will be similar, but still good. Commander Dante looks good, even if Abby can beat him at close combat (which to be fair, he should). Mephistons and corbulo are baller.

 

Again though, we still haven't seen our stratagems. They could very possibly make charges easier, or give Extra attacks or all kinds of things. I'm not sure why but I'm very optimistic (when usually I'm negative). I think we'll do great, with or without ultra-angel-primaris marines.

[The Unseen]

^what Valerian said.

 

And even if by chance, Dante got to shoot, hit, wounded, Abby failed his save, and took maximum damage, 3 thanks to dark destiny, Dante has a chance of a simultaneous knock-out in the second combat phase.

Hitting, wounding, and Abby failing his save happens about 28% of the time, not factoring in actually managing to target Abby who should be surrounded by his terminator body guard, so not likely to happen before the charge.

[Jolemai]

Any sign of pintle stormbolters, hunter killer missiles, etc?

 

Oh, and stormbolters being the same as twin linked bolters is :(

[vahouth]

We don't have any character that can challenge Abbadon and survive.

From what I've seen so far, only Robute has a fun time against him.

 

What I'm worried about though is the regular Joe balance of factions.

For example Necron warriors will butcher us with their AP-2 gauss rifles, or we'll struggle to wound regular Death Guard with their unholy resilience.

[The Unseen]

We don't have any character that can challenge Abbadon and survive.

From what I've seen so far, only Robute has a fun time against him.

 

What I'm worried about though is the regular Joe balance of factions.

For example Necron warriors will butcher us with their AP-2 gauss rifles, or we'll struggle to wound regular Death Guard with their unholy resilience.

 

I'm fine with Abaddon being the scariest beatstick around. (Well, until the decide to write Gman of course kicking him to the curb)

Abby seems fine, Dante just seems lacklustre. He doesn't do anything to show off 1100+ years of experience kicking ass, and being the sole survivor. He has literally nothing that makes him different than a regular Chapter Master with some nice gear. He MIGHT, MIGHT have an extra attack over the standard chapter master, because it appears captains are 4, and having them game 1 wound, 2 attacks, and turning re-roll 1's into re-roll misses seems pretty reasonable for that upgrade. The Axe is pretty nice, but nothing extraordinary, his unique Death Mask is now just a Death Mask like his Sanguinary Guard, and the penalty doesn't stack or anything, so if your running him with what should be his bodyguard, it adds nothing. This is supposed to be the man, the Chapter Master that was given overall command during the 2nd war for Armageddon, including Tu'shan of the Salamanders and Calgar himself? Why?

 

I have a feeling the Necrons are going to be seeing lots of price increases if their AP-2 stock. Which I'm ok with, as Gauss is supposed to be literally the most technologically advanced form of gun in the known galaxy and all. Having them all be equipped with effectively bolters that could glance vehicles was pretty meh.

 

But on the other part, yeah, GW is really still pushing the playstyle of marines as a horde army with a lot of 5 man squads running around. Nothing in the new leaks in any way makes marines feel elite, bolters are going to struggle to put a dent in anything, and baseline marines are still going to be pretty crappy in combat, and won't kill anything but the wimpiest of enemies quickly with 1 base attack. But hey, GW has these new better ones to sell you.

Edited May 30, 2017 by The Unseen

[CaptainHelion]

 

 

I'd like to thank the lead designer for lying to me about Cataphractii and Tartaros :cuss 

 

 

 

Charlo, grenade harnesses and plasma blasters are on the wargear list. Is it possible that Terminators are wrapped up into a single unit entry with all armour types?

[vahouth]

The rumours say that Necron warrior cost remains the same. So we're going to see lots of them.