8th Edition Rules/Datasheets for BAs leaked

[Paikis]

 

Well having just seen the Space Wolf leaked rules, I am struggling to believe there isn't someone at GW who hates the Angels.

 

Wulfen are so much better than the Death Company it's untrue - better basic stats (extra strength and wound and move 7), better feel no pain (5+ normal AND get to make their attacks if slain before striking), get to advance and then charge (so pretty much Jump pack charge bonus without needing jump packs), re-roll failed charges AND they have two different buff bubbles.

 

How many points are they compared to DC?

 

SW have always been the crutch army.

 

 

5x Death Company with Jump packs and a single fist are 120pts.

 

4x Wulfen with a single Thunderhammer and Stormshield and 1x Wulfen Pack Leader who has Frost Claws, you're looking at 225pts. Plus an additional 25ppm to give them THSS

 

Yes, they are better than Death Company, but it looks to me like Death Company are going to be our cheap assault unit. Sanguinary Guard on the other hand... they are going to be silly expensive and powerful because of it.

[tkni]

Huh, given how open the faction rules currently appear to be, you can run wulfen in your BA detachment if you really want.

[Damon Nightman]

Do SG actually look okay compared to wulfen and other good CC units we've seen so far? I can't really tell.. I'm okay with DC being the cheap assault option if SG can go toe to toe with other elite assault units...

 

Also, can you charge after advancing with jump packs. Is that part of the "fly" special rule?

[Cleon]

We've already got Assault Marines as a cheap assault option, I still see the Death Company should be the black clad crazed warriors other armies are afraid of that they've pretty much been since 2nd edition, separating rolls out so the DC are more 'horde suppressors' and SG are 'elite counters' I could get behind, but I don't see why the Death company had to be so utterly neutered.

[Bartali]

Do SG actually look okay compared to wulfen and other good CC units we've seen so far? I can't really tell.. I'm okay with DC being the cheap assault option if SG can go toe to toe with other elite assault units...

 

Also, can you charge after advancing with jump packs. Is that part of the "fly" special rule?

 

Fly allows you to shoot after falling back from combat, and punch flyers (so far)

We still haven't seen the jump pack rules, I'm hoping we might get something there..

[Kyrne]

Jump pack just adds movement and effects size for transports.

[Jolemai]

Looking at how appalling PotMS now is, does that now mean that all our battle tanks are less accurate in the move? I mean, seriously?

[Panda_Saurus_Rex]

Looking at how appalling PotMS now is, does that now mean that all our battle tanks are less accurate in the move? I mean, seriously?

 

 

Literally yes. Does the design team really just hate BA? 

[Kyrne]

Because... Balance!

[Xenith]

Apologies if this has been covered already, but this little snippet seems to hold some light:

 

http://i.imgur.com/G8WLFjN.jpg

 

Means that we can take an army with anything with the <IMPERIUM> faction alongside anything with other stuff that also has <BLOOD ANGELS>.

 

So we can essentially add the Stormhawk, Talon, whatever, they just dont get the <BLOOD ANGELS> Keyword.

[Paikis]

Do SG actually look okay compared to wulfen and other good CC units we've seen so far? I can't really tell..

Also, can you charge after advancing with jump packs. Is that part of the "fly" special rule?

 

Easy question first: From what I can see, the FLY keyword allows you to shoot after falling back, assault other flying units and move over units and terrain as if they aren't there. Nothing about allowing charges after advancing.

 

As for Sanguinary Guard. Boy did they get a price hike. Anyways, I'll just quote myself here...

 

 

Paikis said:

As for Sanguinary Guard... let's see how they've changed.

 

+1 W is pretty nice. It was the first thing I noticed about them. It fixes the same problem that terminators had in that their 2+ sv was too often ignored by simply drowning them in small arms dice.

 

-2 Ld does hurt, especially when combined with the loss of the 'fearless' rule. Giving them ATSKNF does let them reroll failed morale, but they used to just ignore it. That sucks. Taking the Sanguinary Guard Ancient does get you the Chapter Banner which is now a 6" bubble that allows BA units to ignore morale tests and reroll wound rolls of 1 in the fight phase though. Furious Charge is gone... -1S while charging hurts.

 

As far as weapons go, the 'Encarmine' weapons are no longer 'Mastercrafted', but the 'Heirs of Azkaellon' rule grants them rerolls on all failed to-hits, though only when within 6" of a Blood Angels' WARLORD. So that's a pretty good buff, especially if you can make the Sanguinary Guard Ancient your WARLORD. The Encarmine Axe is no longer a free swap either, being 3pts more expensive than the swords in exchange for +1S and -1 AP. Power Fist now costs 20pts.

 

'Death Masks' now cause a -1 Ld bubble to enemy models within 3"... so anything they're in combat with. Previously they caused ('fear') a leadership test that reduced WS to 1 if failed. Their cost is doubled (to 2ppm).

 

Typically I would run my Sanguard as a 5 man unit with the banner, a fist, 1 axe and 3 swords. I also had 2 inferno pistols. This squad cost 220pts in 7ed. The same squad now will set you back 314pts.

 

 

So taking that squad, now being 4x Sanguinary Guard with 2 inferno pistols, 3 swords and an axe and the Sanguinary Guard Ancient (who gets 4W and an extra attack) with banner, power fist and angelus boltgun;

 

When shooting you're getting

- 2x S8, AP -4 inferno pistol shots that do d6 damage each and

- 6x S4, AP -1 Angelus Boltgun shots.

 

Once you connect, you attack first, giving you

- 6x S4, AP -3 attacks dealing d3 damage from the Encarmine Swords

- 2x S5, AP -2 attacks dealing d3 damage from the Encarmine Axe

- 3x S8, AP -3 attacks dealing d3 damage from the Power Fist (at -1 to hit)

 

Assuming you're allowed to make the Sanguinary Guard Ancient your Warlord or you've got Dante in the area, your Sanguinary Guard are rerolling all failed hit rolls and all wound rolls of 1. These attacks are going to connect and they are going to wound. All the attacks in melee are going to do d3 damage, making them better for dealing with heavy infantry or light vehicles than the Death Company. Also as long as the Banner is alive (and your oponent can't even attack it until the other 4 guys are dead) you don't take morale tests.

 

Also, taking masks means any failed morale tests near these guys are killing an extra model. You pay 8pts for masks on a 4 man squad and you get to just remove an extra model every time your oponent fails a morale test.

 

Anyways, with all those power weapons dealing d3 damage now, the Sanguinary Guard are going to be what you throw at heavy infantry and light vehicles. Death Company are going to be doing more attacks, but with Chainswords only doing 1 wound you're going to be mulching hordes with them instead.

 

Do consider though that instead of that unit of 4x Sanguinary Guard with an ancient, you could take 13 Death Company with 2 power fists and 2 plasma pistols.

[Paikis]

 

Looking at how appalling PotMS now is, does that now mean that all our battle tanks are less accurate in the move? I mean, seriously?

 

 

Literally yes. Does the design team really just hate BA? 

 

 

Firstly, calm down; it's a Space Marines vehicle, not a Blood Angels' one. There's no conspiracy at GW to nerf us, get a hold of yourself.

 

Secondly what's wrong with PotMS? No penalty for moving and firing is pretty good in an edition where you can fire all your weapons at whatever you want to. The old rule would do literally nothing in this edition.

[Poppaby]

Ive seen the stats for the other chapter masters, they've all been as nerfed as Dante. That's something at least

[ChapelXIII]

I don't know if it's been brought up yet, but as far as I can tell assault squads can't take melta guns anymore. Can anyone confirm?

[sebs_evo7]

Or plasma guns

 

And i would argue the point about all other chapter masters getting a nerf. They all have something which is a bonus to troops around them, Seth even has the chance to let his troops fight a second time in the fight phase. Calgar has bonus command points and the templar dude gives units around him +1 strength. Dante doesn't really have much to match any of that

Edited May 31, 2017 by sebs_evo7

[Blindhamster]

Ive seen the stats for the other chapter masters, they've all been as nerfed as Dante. That's something at least

Both logan and calgar have 7 wounds, they have at least as good (or better) weapons. They provide similar army buffs (calgar also grants TWO command points!).

They both look like they'd happily whip Dante. And Logan costs less points.

[Kyrne]

I don't know if it's been brought up yet, but as far as I can tell assault squads can't take melta guns anymore. Can anyone confirm?

Correct.

 

2 marines can get either flamers or plasma pistols.

 

Sergeant can take melee or pistol upgrades.

 

Though we can take x4 heavy flamers in dev squads now.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I really love the new plasma. You get to choose for a chance at "gets hot"

 

we will certainly see *alot* of plasma on the boards, and I'm okay with that!

 

I still think I need at least 1 ASM squad without jump packs.

[Poppaby]

Dante can slap flyers out of the sky. And lets blood angels reroll to hit. How is that not a buff

 

Hey it could be worse. We could be Iron Hands.

 

They aren't even in the Imperial book

[redshadow]

dante is as awesome as ever and let you re-roll hits

the sanguinor is also awesome and gives +1 attack

company veteran squads with jump packs and cheap power weapon or mass melta to strip wounds will put work in,

the sanguinary priest can keep the charaters alive and gives +1 strength

twin assault cannons razorback and vindicators for hordes 

predator annihilators and devs with 4 lascannons will strip wounds of heavys

 

i'm liking what we can do, were still the most mobile chapter, with dante and the sanguinor we get to pick our fights.

 

i don't see where the primas marines fit in tho.. just can't see me using them at the min.

Edited May 31, 2017 by redshadow

[mustardParty]

Don't know if this has been mentioned or covered, but it looks like Sterngaurd lost their special issue ammo across the board and had it replaced with a generic special issue boltgun? OK I guess they are streamlining, but then they go and give all that complicated special issue ammo to the Deathwatch?  

[Paikis]

I don't see where the primas marines fit in tho.. just can't see me using them at the min.

 

What's not to like about a 5-man squad of extra-range plasmaguns with twice as many wounds? Who doesn't want a 6-wound assault squad with extra attacks and 6 heavy bolters that can be fired while moving and then charge afterwards with more attacks than an actual assault squad?

 

Honestly, the generic boltrifle primaris are the only ones I'm not hugely interested in.

[Spagunk]

 

I don't know if it's been brought up yet, but as far as I can tell assault squads can't take melta guns anymore. Can anyone confirm?

Correct.

 

2 marines can get either flamers or plasma pistols.

 

Sergeant can take melee or pistol upgrades.

 

Though we can take x4 heavy flamers in dev squads now.

 

What....the...heck...

 

Like seriously, was that seriously a bone they had to pick? We even kept the 2 meltaguns when they revisited in angels blade!

 

Guess I get to field my assault marines as command vets.

 

Edit: Figured it out. They literally only include whatever options exists on the current frame (bar BA specific options). Gosh darn it, GW!

Edited May 31, 2017 by Spagunk

[TheRealMcCagh]

Maybe DC is underwhelming because they want Primaris DC to be the khornate berserker/wulfen analog. Total speculation of course, sense I haven't heard a whisper of Primaris DC even existing. But it seems, fluff wise, that the Blood Angels will be the first to get the 'Primaris Injection' to help bolster our ranks.

[Charlo]

I think all of our cool options will comeback in the codex.

 

They probably didn't want to be like "BA Assault Squad" "BA Tactical Squad" datasheets etc

 

(even though they just did similar for Angel's Blade)

 

I'm just sad we lost Karlaen as a guy with cool rules.

 

Until we get an update BA are on ice for me, methinks. Too many scattered rules and missed opportunities.