Deathwatch Leaked Rules

[Prot]

Sadly some of my most iconic models are posed and painted with Stormshields. I think they really over estimated how important a stormshield is to a non-character in units of interchangeable dudes who don't die from being closest anymore.

 

Frag Cannons don't look too hot for their cost however I will say that the fact they are invisible now makes using them far more enticing. I just think moderation is key. Plus basically they removed the need for shotguns, and help perhaps offset Combi costs. (you may need less.)

 

The Corvus is another iconic unit to me. I have been comparing it to the Stormraven and the Astartes still have such great choices there. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Best changes

 

1) shotguns and frag cannons staying assault weapons*. Being able to advance and then shoot with a minor penalty is a big deal, more so with frag cannons because you may be able to get within 8" or 12". Factor in the price the drop on vets, and squads can gain run then shoot for 10 - 15 points.

 

2) being able to do imperium detachments, we can fill in alot of the armies holes in a sensical manner. A lot of us wanted certain additions and to be fair they were easy to justify with the fluff, now we can.

 

3) no access to primaris, in my mind this confirms us a sepertate fraction. I'm expecting a lot of the other imperium forces to get codex at a fast rate, mainly because the primaris stuff will be the main additions to most of the armies, where as we may have to wait a lot longer but actually get cool new stuff.

 

4) watch masters and power weapons. Watch Masters lost parry but are cheaper and can deal a good amount of damage. Power Weapons are cheap and we can run a ton of them, with our discount to vets they are a one point upgrade. Not sure if assault is fixed but if it is we may be pretty good at it. I tied these two together because they both need assault to be more favorable.

 

 

 

Cons

 

This one is tough, I have three armies wolves, elder, and deathwatch and I feel like they all got worse. To be fair I think only nids, orks, dark elder, and guard are better than they were. I'm not bitter about this, I think its good for the game so besides IHB still being awful, and storms shields being so pricey I'm not going to complain to much.

 

*edit: they stayed assault weapons, assault weapon rules changed.

[Irbis]

By the way, is it me or pistols don't have such rule allowing fire while advancing? Or am I just overlooking something?

[shanewatts]

By the way, is it me or pistols don't have such rule allowing fire while advancing? Or am I just overlooking something?

 

You are correct, cannot fire pistols while advancing. Only weapons with the Assault type.

[bluntpencil]

It seems there is zero point in Deathwatch Librarians.

 

Just take a regular Librarian, with a Bike, or whatever, and it does the exact same as a Deathwatch one, but doesn't have the same restrictions. It can even come in the same detachment, and powers aren't Chapter keyword linked.

[Kargrym]

It seems there is zero point in Deathwatch Librarians.

 

Just take a regular Librarian, with a Bike, or whatever, and it does the exact same as a Deathwatch one, but doesn't have the same restrictions. It can even come in the same detachment, and powers aren't Chapter keyword linked.

 

until our own codex, where they give more specific <Deathwatch> things like Relics, ya there is no reason for a Librarian to be Deathwatch.

[leth]

Well transport restrictions is one reason.

 

Also if I had to guess, I think they swapped the auspex and stormshield points costs.  For 5 points on the crovus it is LITERALLY a no-brainer take.  Heck even at 15 points it is a no brainer take. We will see.

 

One thing I am finding with the deathwatch is that we need to break the 7th edition meta mindset.  Right now from all reports I am hearing its Tyranids and Orks that are destroying everyone.  However (Imo) I think that is because it has been 10+ years since we have really seen horde armies actually be viable on the table.  Lots of adjustments need to be made.  Personally I am finding myself wanting to emphasize amount of firepower over quality of fire power.

 

As to the frag cannon? People under-estimate how important that automatic hit is.   Flier -1? Dont care, special ability? Dont care.  Seriously there are so many abilities or things that modify the to hit roll, it is super important.

 

On the other hand it is super variable.  I had one frag cannon roll 10 hits, then had 2 roll 7.  Especially when trying to allocate your unit shots it is much harder to count on the number of hits when trying to target something. I also found that adjusting to the durability and number of wounds that models have is going to take some time.

[MeltaRange]

 

One thing I am finding with the deathwatch is that we need to break the 7th edition meta mindset.  Right now from all reports I am hearing its Tyranids and Orks that are destroying everyone.  However (Imo) I think that is because it has been 10+ years since we have really seen horde armies actually be viable on the table.  Lots of adjustments need to be made.  Personally I am finding myself wanting to emphasize amount of firepower over quality of fire power.

 

I couldn't agree more.  Time will tell, but upon initial review my 2000 point army will be mostly based upon as many vanilla bolter Veterans/VV as I can fit, with a few Twin Lascannon toting Transports.

[Irbis]

I wonder, would VV be a good character assasins? Drop 5 of them behind enemy line, with 5 bolt pistols in one hand, mix of plasma/grav pistols in the other, 11 inches away to not make charging them easy, gun down ICs, profit.

Or, if you want to go for broke, 10x plasma pistol, accompanying pack captain to reroll 1s, overload and pew-pew not just characters but whole vehicles/support units. Hmm. You still overpay for SIA though. Opinion?

[leth]

I wonder, would VV be a good character assasins? Drop 5 of them behind enemy line, with 5 bolt pistols in one hand, mix of plasma/grav pistols in the other, 11 inches away to not make charging them easy, gun down ICs, profit.

Or, if you want to go for broke, 10x plasma pistol, accompanying pack captain to reroll 1s, overload and pew-pew not just characters but whole vehicles/support units. Hmm. You still overpay for SIA though. Opinion?

Eversor would do this job only way better IMO. Remember that if you try to land behind they need to have left a 9 inch gap at the back.

I think it is WAY too many points for what it does and you can do it better for less.

[Moostick]

It's a strategy that can work, but it relies on your opponent making deployment mistakes. It does have a secondary effect of affecting your opponent's movement as he knows there's a suicide pistol squad in his face the second his IC strays out too far.

 

But as noted by leth, for T1 assassination attempts or lockdowns, Assassins are better options. They're cheaper now without losing many of their tricks.

[mjrwaud]

There certainly are a lot of interesting options!

 

I'm no super strategist, but I was thinking of one option for a non-kill team deep strike group, weapons depending on the target (a kill team strategy would need a corvus and I don't have one yet).

 

Callidus assassin

Drop pod with 8 shotgun vets and power weapons (maybe not the ideal, but I like shotguns and they have 2 wound shots when up close) + 2 frag cannons

5 man Vanguard squad with a mix of power weapons + pistols (plasma / grav / or just bolt with SIA).

 

- Callidus appears within D6 +3" of target

- Drop pod appears within 9"... disembarks (frag cannons are assault so don't have -1 for moving).

- Vanguards arrive within 9"

 

- They all shoot... regular vets hopefully whittle down the number of overwatch shots that'll be coming.

 

- Callidus charges in first, takes the overwatch shots and hopefully survives (4+ invulnerable, so fingers crossed). Her shorter charge distance with only 1 dice to roll makes it more likely to succeed (and reroll with command points if necessary).

- Vanguard charge in, don't take any overwatch if Callidus made it.

- Vets can move in if wanted or maybe just move in close enough to get those 2 wound xenopurge slug shots on a target not in close combat.

 

If wanting to get CrAzY, you could add a jump pack captain and swap a veteran for a chaplain in the drop pod... :D

 

Just an (expensive) idea!

[Irbis]

 

Eversor would do this job only way better IMO.  Remember that if you try to land behind they need to have left a 9 inch gap at the back.

 

I think it is WAY too many points for what it does and you can do it better for less.

 

Eh, I don't know about that. 5 VV with 5x plasma/bolt cost as much as two Eversors - but they don't rely on getting charge to do their damage and can absolutely blow Eversor damage out of the water if you're willing to risk 1s. Then can still charge. Sure, Eversor is more likely to successfully charge but in 8th, it's very easy to screen characters from charges, so at best you will get a chaff unit before being gunned down against most armies. Then there is the fact VV have DW keyword, and 'pure' armies are supposed to start getting bonuses soon.

 

It's a strategy that can work, but it relies on your opponent making deployment mistakes. It does have a secondary effect of affecting your opponent's movement as he knows there's a suicide pistol squad in his face the second his IC strays out too far.

 

Mistakes? That's the thing, VV can also drop and harass light support units and vehicles even when there is no IC on board. What can say Eversor do against even a Rhino or all-ranged Dreadnought? Close to nothing, yes, he has a melta bomb but he isn't throwing that from deep strike so he has to hide somewhere for a turn and hope to survive.

 

All in all, I don't think it's so clear cut, DW looks a bit more viable now, IMHO.

[leth]

 

 

Eversor would do this job only way better IMO.  Remember that if you try to land behind they need to have left a 9 inch gap at the back.

 

I think it is WAY too many points for what it does and you can do it better for less.

 

Eh, I don't know about that. 5 VV with 5x plasma/bolt cost as much as two Eversors - but they don't rely on getting charge to do their damage and can absolutely blow Eversor damage out of the water if you're willing to risk 1s. Then can still charge. Sure, Eversor is more likely to successfully charge but in 8th, it's very easy to screen characters from charges, so at best you will get a chaff unit before being gunned down against most armies. Then there is the fact VV have DW keyword, and 'pure' armies are supposed to start getting bonuses soon.

 

It's a strategy that can work, but it relies on your opponent making deployment mistakes. It does have a secondary effect of affecting your opponent's movement as he knows there's a suicide pistol squad in his face the second his IC strays out too far.

 

Mistakes? That's the thing, VV can also drop and harass light support units and vehicles even when there is no IC on board. What can say Eversor do against even a Rhino or all-ranged Dreadnought? Close to nothing, yes, he has a melta bomb but he isn't throwing that from deep strike so he has to hide somewhere for a turn and hope to survive.

 

All in all, I don't think it's so clear cut, DW looks a bit more viable now, IMHO.

 

 

Eversor is likely to get the charge.  However anyone who knows you have those vanguard in your list wont even let you drop within 12 of any meaningful characters.  Screening units will be huge this edition and something to plan around.  

[Moostick]

I thought we were talking about ICs, so I didn't factor in vehicles. Without a doubt, if we only take into account killing potential against vehicles, then the VV wins. Especially against T8, where the Eversor's ability drops significantly.

 

Against T7 vehicles though, the Eversor would still be a major threat and arguably better. At the very least, not close to nothing. If we compare 5 VVs with 2 Eversors, the Eversor gets 8 S4, AP1 shots, and 16 S, AP3 attacks from a charge, all wounding on a 2+ To Hit and 5+ to Wound. If a Dread survives that, then I was destined to lose the match.

 

Edit: Funny thing with Eversor though is that neither a Dread nor Eversor would likely survive the death of the other. Both would explode and likely do enough Mortal Wounds to take off the remaining wounds they have after the combat. 

[Vel'Cona]

Edit: Funny thing with Eversor though is that neither a Dread nor Eversor would likely survive the death of the other. Both would explode and likely do enough Mortal Wounds to take off the remaining wounds they have after the combat. 

 

I don't know about the Eversor specifically, but the Dread only pops on a 6 . . .

[Moostick]

 

Edit: Funny thing with Eversor though is that neither a Dread nor Eversor would likely survive the death of the other. Both would explode and likely do enough Mortal Wounds to take off the remaining wounds they have after the combat. 

 

I don't know about the Eversor specifically, but the Dread only pops on a 6 . . .

 

 

Well, that just makes things significantly less fun. 

[Irbis]

Eversor is likely to get the charge.  However anyone who knows you have those vanguard in your list wont even let you drop within 12 of any meaningful characters.  Screening units will be huge this edition and something to plan around. 

 

Except VV have FLY keyword, so that screen would need to be comically massive (several ranks deep or they will just bypass it next turn) while any chaff unit can intercept Eversors with ease. That's the fun with jet packs in 8th, screening against small melee unit is trivial, against one with double digit move that can walk through screen unimpeded, not so much.

 

Additional fun tactic with VV (if I understood FLY thing correctly) is 'falling back', only forward, above the enemy's head deeper into his ranks, and still unload pistols into the enemy...

[Moostick]

Speaking of Assassins though, I took a look back at Culexus and what an annoying model he'll be.

 

Only snap shots in both Shooting AND Melee against him, ignores regular armor saves entirely in melee, immune to and messes up psykers, has a nifty gun with S5, AP4. He's not an "everything dies" model, but he'll be running around for a while, pissing just about everyone off.

[Irbis]

You always could only hit him on 6s and he did ignored armour ourtright. I like him and Vindicare best out of all the assassins, they are the only two who have some durability to them and don't die in nanoseconds to even a simple squad worth of shooting...

[leth]

The VV wont have the abilities you describe on the turn they drop however.  Anything else assumes that they survive another turn at reasonable effectiveness. With the 9 inch bubble wrap their plasma pistols wont be in range of anything good on the turn they drop.  Considering the SIA I would rather give them two bolt pistols to save on points. -2 at str 4 or always wound on a 2+ is nothing to sneeze at.  I also like having cheap models that are always the first to go when casualties start coming off(especially now that we get to pick).  

 

Finally, as the deathwatch we have the ability to take advantage of both casualty removal and split fire within a squad more than most other armies.  We can make mixed specialties squads like no other army can while also taking advantage of MSU with our small one man squad sizes, especially now that we are not really FOC limited.

 

Split fire is a blessing and a curse against our army.  Since the entire unit has to declare their shooting at once there is a good chance they might not allocate enough fire power to kill a single model, while also allocating too much to a different model to more reliably get the kill.

 

However we have to be careful with MSU as it means we wont get to pick first or second turn very often.

 

I think DW more than most other marine factions is designed with the assumption that you will supplement it with other forces.  IG conscripts are a perfect addition to our forces in that they provide bodies, bubble wrap, and just high volume of fire shots.  These sorts of things allow us to further specialize our forces to deal with a specific niche and adjust on the fly by taking advantage of our SIA.

[Moostick]

You always could only hit him on 6s and he did ignored armour ourtright. I like him and Vindicare best out of all the assassins, they are the only two who have some durability to them and don't die in nanoseconds to even a simple squad worth of shooting...

 

I stayed away from Assassins in 7th, but with them being essentially half the points now they are definitely worth it. Seems like a useful unit to lock down a valued target, or just piss people off on the cheap. I'll have to see if I can fit one in.

[Vel'Cona]

Keep in mind there are lots of weapons that can autohit the Culexus and he has to get close to do his job.  A simple HF or even a few Flamers spammed could end his day very quickly, and they'll mess him up on Overwatch, too.

[Icechiang]

Does it bother anyone else that we didn't get a deathwatch apothecary? For some reason it really annoys me that grey knights did but we didn't.

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

Besides the Primaris marines, no one got any new models. Grey Knights have had Apothecaries since 5th edition.