Matched Play Psychic Phase Rule of 1

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 'Psychic Locus: When a friendly Grey Knights unit within 6" of any Brother Captains manifests the Smite power, double its range'

 

Seems pretty clear it doesn't stack. You can have 1 or 6 BC's within 6", it still only makes it range 24". Which is still quite nice. 

 

On the topic of OP, I'm probably just gonna house rule with my gaming group. It's a dumb restriction that is meaningless with 'Smite' being spammable. 

 

The half Reserves rule is fine, you can play around that. But gutting our Psychic Phase even more than has already happened is insane. 

[Seizeman]

The rule of one for psychic powers is absolutely necessary for balancing, without them GKs are op. Every single of our units using purge or hammerhand every turn is absolutely ridiculous as they cast them for free.

 

The problem with the rule is that makes our HQs redundant and useless beyond the first one. If they had given regular units some ability to represent their psychic nature instead of an actual psychic power and only HQs had actual powers, it would have been better and more flavorful. These are just temporary rules, they are fine until we have a proper codex.

[Gentlemanloser]

They should have given every squad thier own power. And not limit those squad powers by the rule of one.

 

Give strikes a reason to take because of the power they bring.

[Valerian]

They should have given every squad thier own power. And not limit those squad powers by the rule of one.

 

Give strikes a reason to take because of the power they bring.

Completely agree with this, and was a little surprised it wasn't done like this to begin with, since that approach seems to be quite common in AoS. Perhaps it's exactly what they'll do with our codex.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The rule of one for psychic powers is absolutely necessary for balancing, without them GKs are op. Every single of our units using purge or hammerhand every turn is absolutely ridiculous as they cast them for free.

 

Spamming Mortal Wounds at 24" isn't though? I'm confused. Purge is actually worse than casting 'Smite' in most cases, because you have to beat their Ld+D6 roll to cause wounds, whereas 'Smite' always gets a wound in (3 against Daemons). Also its not casting for free, we pay a premium in unit costs and on characters. Perils is a lot nastier now too. It's entirely possible GK will cause more damage to their own side in the Psychic phase than to the enemy. 

The problem with the rule is that makes our HQs redundant and useless beyond the first one. If they had given regular units some ability to represent their psychic nature instead of an actual psychic power and only HQs had actual powers, it would have been better and more flavorful. These are just temporary rules, they are fine until we have a proper codex.

 

I'd say most lists are gonna be taking Voldus (he's only 30pts more than a generic GM and better in every way) and then probably a Brother-Captain to layer auras. But yeah, they're functionally quite useless beyond the first HQ. 

[Seizeman]

We can't forget that our 7th edition codex was a rushed mess and they only made it because our previous one was incompatible with the new rules.

 

It was really nice when every unit had their powers. Purgation used to ignore cover... then that got downgraded to night vision... now they are regular guys. Again, every single faction is pretty bland right now, Indexes are just a patch to be able to play until our codex arrives. They said they have 15 codexes on preparation and they are planing on releasing them fast. Take into account that Aos has been around for less than 2 years and they have released 17 codexes for it so fast, so I don't think we'll have to wait for too long.

 

A warlord with +1 leadership trait is LD10, and most units have LD8, that averages 2 wounds per purge, which is ok, but there's the chance to deal a lot more. Psychic shriek did a couple of wounds on average, but was one of the most feared powers, as a good roll could wipe entire units (and you could still use Invulnerable saves against those). Also some tyranids and orks have units with very low leadership, a LD10 purge has a high chance of one shotting a carnifex.

 

As for paying a premium, our units are pretty well costed if you don't take into account psychic power. Storm bolters have been hugely buffed, and now we have access to nemesis weapons without an extra cost. Meanwhile, every high ap weapon that was good against us has been nerfed or have double or tripled their cost. Anyway, having smite is really good and worth paying some points.

 

If our units did not have smite but just one chosen power, I'm pretty sure people would be glad how our units have gotten much more powerful instead of complaining because their base power does not destroy units by itself. Our psychic powers "problem" is a flavour and character issue, not a power level one.

 

About HQs, I don't even see the use of a brother captain. Smite can be only cast on the closest model, so extra range is not very useful, specially when we want to stay within 12'' range anyway to rapid fire and charge, and the guy itself is not worth the points at all.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Seizeman

[Valerian]

They should have given every squad thier own power. And not limit those squad powers by the rule of one.

 

Give strikes a reason to take because of the power they bring.

 

Something like this:

 

 

Paladins and Dreadnoughts

    

    Holocaust:  Charge value 5.  If manifested pick a visible enemy unit within 12" of the psyker, and resolve d6 automatic hits at Strength 5, AP-1, and Damage 1 against it.

 

Terminators and Dreadknights

 

   Sanctuary:  Charge value 4.  If manifested, invulnerable saves for the casting unit improve by 1 until the player's next Psychic phase.

 

Purgators

 

    Astral Aim:  Charge value 5.  If manifested, re-roll all failed shooting to hit rolls until player's next Psychic phase.

 

Interceptors

 

   The Shrouding:  Charge value 6.  If manifested, armor saves for the casting unit improve by 1 until the player's next Psychic phase.

 

Strikes

 

    The Quickening:  Charge value 6.  If manifested, unit gains +1 attack in close combat until the player's next Psychic phase.

[Aethernitas]

I highly doubt that they will put anything in the codex that will directly contradict the newly released index, even if those are just stopgaps for the real codex. I expect them to add stuff like another three psychic powersm relics, maybe warlord traits and stuff like that but the codices are all already in print or finished printing so they most likely can't react at all to criticisms and FAW question that come up with the Indexes, which is a shame cause I'd actually prefered them to collect erratas before they actually release the Codices.

[Happy-inquisitor]

Interesting comment from a couple of the play-testers at Frontline that the mortal wound spam armies - Tzeentch and Grey Knights were mentioned - were a bit too much until they were given toned down versions of Smite. Mortal wound spam is definitely a feel-bad thing in AOS so I think what we have is feedback from the community play-testing. If a couple of armies have easy access to massed mortal wounds it can have the effect of invalidating a wide spread of elite-style armies as competitive options.

 

Until we put models on tables and stop theory-hammering this we will not know if the play-testers got it right or not. 

[Holier Than Thou]

Interesting comment from a couple of the play-testers at Frontline that the mortal wound spam armies - Tzeentch and Grey Knights were mentioned - were a bit too much until they were given toned down versions of Smite. Mortal wound spam is definitely a feel-bad thing in AOS so I think what we have is feedback from the community play-testing. If a couple of armies have easy access to massed mortal wounds it can have the effect of invalidating a wide spread of elite-style armies as competitive options.

 

Until we put models on tables and stop theory-hammering this we will not know if the play-testers got it right or not.

 

But that's what doesn't make sense. Mortal Wounds spam is bad...........but the power that causes Mortal Wounds is the only one you're allowed to cast more than once??? Where's the logic in that?

[Gentlemanloser]

Also have they *not* seen Eldar?

 

Pathinders get free Mortal wounds on a 6 to wound.  In addition to the normal Wound.  Scorpions get free Mortals wounds on a 6 too.  It's rediculous the amount of 'free' Mortal wounds they can dish out, without having to deal with Deny or Perils.

 

But Psychic Power spamming was OP...

Edited June 3, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Zamtro]

 

They should have given every squad thier own power. And not limit those squad powers by the rule of one.

 

Give strikes a reason to take because of the power they bring.

 

Something like this:

 

 

Paladins and Dreadnoughts

    

    Holocaust:  Charge value 5.  If manifested pick a visible enemy unit within 12" of the psyker, and resolve d6 automatic hits at Strength 5, AP-1, and Damage 1 against it.

 

Terminators and Dreadknights

 

   Sanctuary:  Charge value 4.  If manifested, invulnerable saves for the casting unit improve by 1 until the player's next Psychic phase.

 

Purgators

 

    Astral Aim:  Charge value 5.  If manifested, re-roll all failed shooting to hit rolls until player's next Psychic phase.

 

Interceptors

 

   The Shrouding:  Charge value 6.  If manifested, armor saves for the casting unit improve by 1 until the player's next Psychic phase.

 

Strikes

 

    The Quickening:  Charge value 6.  If manifested, unit gains +1 attack in close combat until the player's next Psychic phase.

 

How amazing would that be? It would certainly help with our low model count, and actually make use a proper psyker army... If only :(

[Holier Than Thou]

Also have they *not* seen Eldar?

 

Pathinders get free Mortal wounds on a 6 to wound. In addition to the normal Wound. Scorpions get free Mortals wounds on a 6 too. It's rediculous the amount of 'free' Mortal wounds they can dish out, without having to deal with Deny or Perils.

 

But Psychic Power spamming was OP...

Yeah, but that's Eldar. They have to be better than everyone else, otherwise what's the point? Also one of the only army that has several units that can ignore Mortal Wounds and that has a built in way of mitigating Perils (Eldrad's re-roll ability). They also have access to 6 different Psychic powers instead of everyone else's 3. And with regards to dishing out free Mortal Wounds, when an infantry model is slain with the Shuriken Catapult, the unit takes another D3 Mortal Wounds. No need to roll a 6 or anything, just kill someone with it. And no limit on how often it can trigger, so can do it everytime they overwatch too.

 

But yeah, balance.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Holier Than Thou

[Captain Coolpants]

 

Also have they *not* seen Eldar?

 

Pathinders get free Mortal wounds on a 6 to wound. In addition to the normal Wound. Scorpions get free Mortals wounds on a 6 too. It's rediculous the amount of 'free' Mortal wounds they can dish out, without having to deal with Deny or Perils.

 

But Psychic Power spamming was OP...

Yeah, but that's Eldar. They have to be better than everyone else, otherwise what's the point? Also one of the only army that has several units that can ignore Mortal Wounds and that has a built in way of mitigating Perils (Eldrad's re-roll ability). They also have access to 6 different Psychic powers instead of everyone else's 3. And with regards to dishing out free Mortal Wounds, when an infantry model is slain with the Shuriken Catapult, the unit takes another D3 Mortal Wounds. No need to roll a 6 or anything, just kill someone with it. And no limit on how often it can trigger, so can do it everytime they overwatch too.

 

But yeah, balance.

the shurikan catapult does no such thing. Only 1 special character has a special cannon that does that

And Eldar have always had 2 different psykers that have their own disciplines. They can't each use both.

And which units ignore mortal wounds?

And only striking scorpions get the 'free' mortal wound in combat, IF they roll a 6, and only if they are actually engaged. Their last iteration of the scorpions bite was actually much better since an auto wounded on a 4+. And nobody took them then.

 

The fact that we now actually get a save vs their shurikan guns is very much a nerf too (not much of one granted lol)

Edited June 4, 2017 by Captain Coolpants

[Holier Than Thou]

 

 

Also have they *not* seen Eldar?

Pathinders get free Mortal wounds on a 6 to wound. In addition to the normal Wound. Scorpions get free Mortals wounds on a 6 too. It's rediculous the amount of 'free' Mortal wounds they can dish out, without having to deal with Deny or Perils.

But Psychic Power spamming was OP...

Yeah, but that's Eldar. They have to be better than everyone else, otherwise what's the point? Also one of the only army that has several units that can ignore Mortal Wounds and that has a built in way of mitigating Perils (Eldrad's re-roll ability). They also have access to 6 different Psychic powers instead of everyone else's 3. And with regards to dishing out free Mortal Wounds, when an infantry model is slain with the Shuriken Catapult, the unit takes another D3 Mortal Wounds. No need to roll a 6 or anything, just kill someone with it. And no limit on how often it can trigger, so can do it everytime they overwatch too.

But yeah, balance.

the shurikan catapult does no such thing. Only 1 special character has a special cannon that does that

And Eldar have always had 2 different psykers that have their own disciplines. They can't each use both.

And which units ignore mortal wounds?

And only striking scorpions get the 'free' mortal wound in combat, IF they roll a 6, and only if they are actually engaged. Their last iteration of the scorpions bite was actually much better since an auto wounded on a 4+. And nobody took them then.

The fact that we now actually get a save vs their shurikan guns is very much a nerf too (not much of one granted lol)

Sorry, you're right it's not the Shuriken Catapult. It's still free Mortal Wounds at no risk to add to all the other free Mortal Wounds they can do, again risk-free.

 

And who can ignore Mortal Wounds? Eldrad, Fuegan, The Avatar of Khaine. There might be more, that's only from the Craftworld HQ section.

 

Oh, and they have Psychic Powers from 2 disciplines, one of which gives 2 powers for each so 9 in total. It doesn't matter if they've always had that. The point of 8th was to bring everyone into the same power level. Now, with the Psychic Focus rule, how many powers (excluding Smite) can everyone else use? 3. How many can Eldar use? 9. How is that balanced?

 

I also don't understand your comment about getting a save vs their Shurikan weapons. As far as I recall we always got our full save vs them, now we can potentially be down to a 6+ for Power Armour and 5+ for Terminator Armour. That's another buff for Eldar, not us.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Holier Than Thou

[Captain Coolpants]

Well a few special characters getting the new fnp really isn't that bad in my opinion. It's not like it's a squad or anything.

 

No risk mortal wounds I actually understand, especially considering we could face a perils. But our whole army gets to cause a mortal wound, not a single squad only during combat on a 6.

And I meant blade storm for the shurikan guns. Before a 6 was ap2 that ignored all armour, now even out power armoured guys actually get a save, +1 save if in cover.

 

I'm definitely hoping they give us more powers in our actual codex! And not just daemon specific ones lol

[SyNidus]

I personally agree with the Psychic Phase rule of 1. 7th Ed was horrible for the lopsided-ness of psychic armies and i'd rather not have that. With Smite being spammable though our other psykers still have their uses and when focussed on a target through careful positioning, stacking multiple smites is a good way to thin out a unit.

[Captain Coolpants]

It's just annoying because the core rules say, 'unless stated otherwise, all psykers know smite'.

 

Implying that certain units will indeed get their own reusable powers. So why give eeeeeeverything in the entire game smite, if they know they're just going to change it anyway? Just implies that yet again, it's not been fully playtested and they're relying on the new community site probably.

 

I agree to a point in regards to the rule of 1 though, because it's no fun throwing out numerous powerful spells like invisibility or mass teleporting everything or numerous vortex of foods or equivalent ect.

But a small self buff like hammerhand/sanctuary ect? They were hardly unbalanced or game breaking. That should be our spammable spell not smite.

[Gaz1858]

Well an idea is that you have a selection of powers which can be Primaris. You choose one of these powers and it can be used by every unit. The rest are one per turn,

[Sigvard]

So it seems you guys are all pretty bitter about this Smite lite thing and I have to admit I don't really see why from either a Lore perspective or from a gaming perspective if I am honest with you all.

 

I don't think (and I am truly in the belief that none of you if you actually sat down and thought about it) the ability to Spam D3 and potentially D6 mortal wounds with every unit in your army is fair or balanced in any way - you have to bear in mind that most other armies will have little in the way of Denial for the sheer amount of powers GK have every turn and also that mortal wounds aren't like the instant death of old, you literally can take NO saves against them so not only would you dominate the Psychic phase you would dominate the game in a single physic phase simply from morale ramifications alone. Also this makes sense in terms of the Lore, whilst Grey Knights have the most powerful psykers in the galaxy this is not the case for every single Grey Knight, most have only latent psychic power and require their Justicar to amplify this power. Secondly the Rule of 1 is direct response to the hot mess that is 7th Edition psychic power spams that ruined competitive and casual play and if you guys want to go back to that then don't play 8th...

 

Finally to the guy that said you guys didn't get a buff and that the Index for GK's is garbage etc. You are just plain wrong.

 

21pts per model compared to a standard Marine.

 

For your 21pts - Psyker, 4 Shot Boltgun within 12" (Storm Bolters have Rapid Fire 2 which means you fire two shots and then double at half ranged) Power Weapons (They cost 0 points ladies and gentlemen 0 Points) that do D3 damage each you have the potential to cause 30 wounds in CC with your base 10 Strike who now you can slap in a Rhino and charge up the field, get out of your Rhino and be within 12 inches fire 40 Boltgun rounds and then charge with your murderous power weapons. <<<<<<<<<<<< This is your base unit.....

 

It is balanced, it is considered and it is very very playable, Grey Knight buddy of mine has never been happier with his Knights of Titan.

 

Finally - Your Codex isn't out yet. Whilst I don't doubt the stats and rules will remain the same -  you will get more stuff, artifacts, powers and maybe more models so give them a break they have done an incredible job and this ruleset is looking to be the best for a long long while.

Sig

[Gentlemanloser]

That's all covered above.

 

Give us actual non smite powers.  Sorted.

 

It makes no sense were at more risk of dealing more Mortal wounds to ourselves, than to our enemies.

 

Also, don't compare Strikes to 'normal' Marines.  Stirkes were always better.

 

Compare Strikes and Purgators to Interceptors.  Compare GKT to Paladin.

 

Then you will see how this Codex falls down and is *no* different to our old one.

 

Just the units names have Shifted.

 

GKT become Paladin.

 

GK Libby become Voldus.

 

DreadKnights become DreadNoughts.

 

 

Until we get our own Codex, we are a bland, and single focused army.  There's little synergy, and little excitement to the Army.

 

 

Edit: I'm sure massed Storm Bolters will perform well.  But it's *bland*.  Our special weapons have been nerfed to near uselessness.

 

So in the shooting Phase (apart from Dreadnoughts) we get the delightful tactical choices of shooting their infantry with massed Bolter rounds.  Shooting their MCs with massed Bolter Rounds.  Shooting their Vehicles with, you guessed it, massed Bolter rounds.

 

Yay...

 

Edit: I also feel the need to repeat that the 'Rule of 1' does *nothing* to limit the potency of an Army that has (for example only) a Single Psyker that knows all three of that armies powers.

 

Just like the Grey Knights, they get to cast those three powers.

 

And heaven forbid the Eldar player brings enough Psykers to utlise their native 9 powers... (While still get free Moral Wounds on other units)

Edited June 5, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Holier Than Thou]

So it seems you guys are all pretty bitter about this Smite lite thing and I have to admit I don't really see why from either a Lore perspective or from a gaming perspective if I am honest with you all.

 

I don't think (and I am truly in the belief that none of you if you actually sat down and thought about it) the ability to Spam D3 and potentially D6 mortal wounds with every unit in your army is fair or balanced in any way - you have to bear in mind that most other armies will have little in the way of Denial for the sheer amount of powers GK have every turn and also that mortal wounds aren't like the instant death of old, you literally can take NO saves against them so not only would you dominate the Psychic phase you would dominate the game in a single physic phase simply from morale ramifications alone. Also this makes sense in terms of the Lore, whilst Grey Knights have the most powerful psykers in the galaxy this is not the case for every single Grey Knight, most have only latent psychic power and require their Justicar to amplify this power. Secondly the Rule of 1 is direct response to the hot mess that is 7th Edition psychic power spams that ruined competitive and casual play and if you guys want to go back to that then don't play 8th...

 

Finally to the guy that said you guys didn't get a buff and that the Index for GK's is garbage etc. You are just plain wrong.

 

21pts per model compared to a standard Marine.

 

For your 21pts - Psyker, 4 Shot Boltgun within 12" (Storm Bolters have Rapid Fire 2 which means you fire two shots and then double at half ranged) Power Weapons (They cost 0 points ladies and gentlemen 0 Points) that do D3 damage each you have the potential to cause 30 wounds in CC with your base 10 Strike who now you can slap in a Rhino and charge up the field, get out of your Rhino and be within 12 inches fire 40 Boltgun rounds and then charge with your murderous power weapons. <<<<<<<<<<<< This is your base unit.....

 

It is balanced, it is considered and it is very very playable, Grey Knight buddy of mine has never been happier with his Knights of Titan.

 

Finally - Your Codex isn't out yet. Whilst I don't doubt the stats and rules will remain the same - you will get more stuff, artifacts, powers and maybe more models so give them a break they have done an incredible job and this ruleset is looking to be the best for a long long while.

 

Sig

You seem to be missing what nearly everyone is saying. None of us want to spam Mortal Wounds yet that's the only power we can spam. You say you don't see the problem from a lore or gaming perspective? Here's just 1 problem from each perspective, I'm sure other posters can offer more.

 

Lore - All Grey Knights units use their Psychic Powers to primarily increase their combat ability, they sometimes use it to offensively attack. Current rules let one unit boost their ability in combat whereas everyone else can just zap their opponents with mind bullets.

 

Gaming - My Grand Master casts Gate of Infinity on the unit of Paladins he is using as a retinue. Poof. They've gone, now he's standing around in the open all by himself.

 

We don't want to spam Mortal Wounds, we want our other powers to actually help rather than potentially hinder us.

 

Comparing us to Marines, it's not just the points, it's the options available. They can choose Lascannons, Meltas, Grav so they can threaten big, tough models from range. We have to get up close and personal to threaten them, putting ourselves at much greater risk. They can also get access to a whole unit of 3++ Assault Terminators, reducing their risk to high AP weapons significantly. We might be better point for point on basics, but they have much better flexibility which actually makes them far stronger.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Holier Than Thou

[Seizeman]

Your are not at more risk of dealing wounds to ourselves than our enemies. You take 1 wound for every 7 the opponent takes, so it is worth casting almost every time.

 

There's no reason  for every unit to have an unique power, as someone said Grey Knights use their powers to boost themselves "passively", and that does not need an ingame power to be represented.

 

They only unit I think needs some rule are purgation squads, as according to the lore they use their powers primarily to boost their shooting, seeing through walls and bending bullets. Ignore cover or something similar would be sufficient.

 

You can also bring back holocaust for terminators, but it's not really necesssary and they would have to increase their cost.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why ever use Strike Squads?  Why currently use GKT?  What about DreadKnights?

 

Apart from Dreadnought Weapons, why use any other shooting weapon other than a Storm Bolter?

 

Crowe is terrible, he's lost both the 'Stances' that inferior Champions have and his innate Rending.  Why would you ever include him in your army?

 

The internal balance of our Index is just as bad as the previous editions of our Codexes.  It's no where near remotely 'balanced' with every unit being a wanted choice that GW have promised.

 

Our units having their own powers, going back to Daemohunters Holocaust and 5th edition Strikes Warp Quakes, was the way the Studio gave differentiation to our units.  Take that away and we're left with three different PA units that are virtually the same unit.  Interceptors saved only by their Movement and Shunt.  With two TDA units where one will always be the better choice over the other.

 

Of course our units could have been given different Special Rules, like Strikes Infiltrate or Scout.  But we're an Army of Psykers.  It's thematic to use our Powers to differentiate our squad types.

 

Where's the Telekine Domes?  The Force that shattered Daemon Weapons?  The Prognostications?

 

Where's the increase to Deny (that other units get) that we've lost?

 

Yeah yeah, hopefully all coming back, and more!  When we finally get our *real* Codex...

[Bartali]

 

 

Edit: I also feel the need to repeat that the 'Rule of 1' does *nothing* to limit the potency of an Army that has (for example only) a Single Psyker that knows all three of that armies powers.

 

Just like the Grey Knights, they get to cast those three powers.

 

And heaven forbid the Eldar player brings enough Psykers to utlise their native 9 powers... (While still get free Moral Wounds on other units)

 

It's a rule that doesn't scale well, either in game size - it's fine at <1K points; or in number of Psykers - again fine with 1-2 Psykers (or with multiple Psykers from different chapters).

 

GK do feel as though they haven't had much thought put into them. Psychic powers have been changed to stop 7th ed sillyness, with no real thinking in to how that changes GK other than a "Spam Smite" Band Aid.

The Gate power is just pants on head stupid. You can only cast in once and you're leaving characters behind. Surely it wouldn't of been that hard to fix that ?