Matched Play Psychic Phase Rule of 1

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Psychic Focus is dumb and just serves to further gut one of the phases of the game GK are supposed to excel at. 

 

Also, if they were so worried about psychic dominance, why is Smite exempt from this? Spamming Mortal wounds at 24" seems far more concerning than multi-casting 'Hammerhand' around, for example. 

 

I'm probably gonna house rule it with my group, at least until an FAQ and army book comes out. We're still missing any GK specific detachments that actually reward our playstyle. While we're at it, I'm also gonna playtest removing the 'half units on table' restriction. It's arbitrary and dumb as well. 

[Lysere]

Psychic Focus is dumb and just serves to further gut one of the phases of the game GK are supposed to excel at.

 

Also, if they were so worried about psychic dominance, why is Smite exempt from this? Spamming Mortal wounds at 24" seems far more concerning than multi-casting 'Hammerhand' around, for example.

 

I'm probably gonna house rule it with my group, at least until an FAQ and army book comes out. We're still missing any GK specific detachments that actually reward our playstyle. While we're at it, I'm also gonna playtest removing the 'half units on table' restriction. It's arbitrary and dumb as well.

Just play narrative rather than matched play. The whole point of matched play is to act as a core for competitive settings. Things that should be allowed in the fluff but break the competitive scene are adjusted here. That's why the rule of one and 50% or more on the table to start are part of the advanced rules.

[Gentlemanloser]

RD if you remove the half units on table, there'snothing stopping a player staying put in reserves for three turns.

 

And literally denying the opponent three game turns.

 

That's the reason it's there.

[Adeptus]

 

If they just expand the Psychic power table in the upcoming codex from three powers back up to 6 or 7, or re-introduce squad-specific powers, then the Rule of 1 pretty much won't be an issue.

 

Anybody who plays AoS know how many magic spells their factions typically get in their battle tomes?

I disagree and point to the example I gave earlier of a Grand Master using a squad of Paladins as bodyguards. They need to redeploy to deal with a major threat. The Paladins cast Gate to quickly close with the Greater Daemon that has just arrived. The Grand Master sits down, pulls out a newspaper and has a quick five minutes to himself because he can't follow his squad of bodyguards. All because of the Psychic Focus rule.

 

Problem is that terms like bodyguard, and redeploy, and 'deal with a major threat' are narrative terms. You're even creating a mini-narrative by telling us about the Greater Daemon that has just arrived and needs to be dealt with by the Paladins.

 

But the 'Narrative Play' game style is not the same as the competitive game style.

 

Matched play sucks the narrative and the 41st Millennium right out of the game, turning it into a dry, mechanical competition where you simply move your pieces in order to counter the opponents pieces. There are no Paladins or Greater Daemons in Matched Play, there's just game pieces with names. Trying to use that style of play to create a narrative or trying to impose a narrative over the game as it unfolds is ultimately doomed to failure, IMO. You're best bet is to try and use the 'power ratings' aspect of Narrative Play to promote that to your group as a balanced enough way of playing the game that still allows the players to enjoy the more background driven aspects of the game.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Just play narrative rather than matched play. The whole point of matched play is to act as a core for competitive settings. Things that should be allowed in the fluff but break the competitive scene are adjusted here. That's why the rule of one and 50% or more on the table to start are part of the advanced rules. 

 

It's gonna be ignored as a game mode just like it was in previous editions. GW don't understand their player base at all. 

RD if you remove the half units on table, there'snothing stopping a player staying put in reserves for three turns.

 

And literally denying the opponent three game turns.

 

That's the reason it's there.

 

That's three turns they are losing too. Also, as part of the house ruling, I'd also divide Reserves into each turn. You have to deploy at least half your Reserve units (rounding up) every Movement phase. So there is an incentive to getting units on table ASAP, as you can leverage your alpha strike more efficiently. 

 

I'd prefer GW just release an FAQ, but I doubt they will. 

Matched play sucks the narrative and the 41st Millennium right out of the game, turning it into a dry, mechanical competition where you simply move your pieces in order to counter the opponents pieces. There are no Paladins or Greater Daemons in Matched Play, there's just game pieces with names. Trying to use that style of play to create a narrative or trying to impose a narrative over the game as it unfolds is ultimately doomed to failure, IMO. You're best bet is to try and use the 'power ratings' aspect of Narrative Play to promote that to your group as a balanced enough way of playing the game that still allows the players to enjoy the more background driven aspects of the game.

 

The Power Ratings are arbitrary and meaningless. I've had Strike Knights take out Terminators, yet they're vastly cheaper. Point costs is still the best balancing factor to the game, they at least were smart enough to force people to use point limits for game sizes in Matched play. 

[Valerian]

 

Also, if they were so worried about psychic dominance, why is Smite exempt from this? Spamming Mortal wounds at 24" seems far more concerning than multi-casting 'Hammerhand' around, for example. 

 

 

I haven't looked closely at the other high-Psychic factions, but ours at least is a reduced Smite with half the range and only a single mortal wound, so spamming that isn't a big concern at all.

 

 

 

The Power Ratings are arbitrary and meaningless. ... Point costs is still the best balancing factor to the game,...

 

 

The Power Levels are actually derived directly from the Points costs of a unit.  They've taken the lowest cost for a unit (no upgrades) and the highest cost for a unit (fully upgraded) and taken the average, then divided by 20.  For those that have been playing games with them so far, they seem to be working just fine.

[Waking Dreamer]

Multiple GoIs per turn (but not spammable) makes our army more well-rounded, and would allow variety to our army builds - while being uniquely Grey Knight. We don't have drop pods, bikes (which are now faster), TWC, landspeeders etc. What we have left are Interceptors and basically Rhinos for "quick" infantry movement. Terminators, Paladins, Voldus and Draigo are footslogging a very slow 5" (slower than last edition). Landraiders/stormravens are way more expensive than last edition too. Teleport strike is decent but since Voldus, Draigo, the Apothecary and the Paladin Ancient can no longer join units each one is using a slot for either your teleport strike quota or that ONE GoI per turn.

 

If you want to "deep strike" a TDA unit plus a couple of buffing characters (e.g. Paladins + Apothecary + Ancient + Draigo) that's 4 unit slots used up already. And being the small, elite army we are that's basically near the maximum we can have in reserve since we wouldnt have much more than 10 GK units in an average size game. Being able to reliably (multiple GoI attempts) get say a DK more than 8" (footslogging speed) away into a good position, would have them in a more useful role on the table...rather than thinking - ANOTHER 10 interceptors would be better (leaning towards more mono builds).

[Gentlemanloser]

And Val, that's the exct reason I intensely dislike Power Levels.  Take our Paladin as an example;

 

Paladin Squad (10)  32 Power Level

 

Paladin Squad (10) - As we'd all run them, Storm Bolters, maybe 1 Hammer. 563 points.  Power Level 28

 

Paladin Squad (10) - Blinged out to the Max.  4 Psycannons, all Hammers.  760 points.  Power Level 38

 

​​In a Narrative game, using Power Levels, the Squad we'd usually run changes massively.  32 Power Level is roughly 640 points.  Yet we're allowed to stick a Hammer on every single Paladin, and get them at a significant discount.

 

Units that don't have as much (and as expensive) customisation as others, simply lose out in Power Levels.  Such as an Intercessor Squad with their flat cost of 6.

 

And we should enter every Power Level game with a Daemonhammer on each and every one of our Grey Knights.  Just because!

 

I also dislike the choice lost when list building.  Do you take this upgrade?  Is it worth the points it costs?  What else could you take instead?

 

Those decisions disappear, replaced with "LOAD UP ON EVERYTHING!  AS EXPENSIVE AS POSSIBLE" because otherwise you're missing out.

 

I hope Power Levels quickly get ignored by the community...

 

Edit: The oft spoken response to 'Balance' is now with 8th, everything can be balanced better, quicker and simpler with the way the Points system is.

 

Grav still OP OP?  (It's still the best imperial gun for every situation...)  GW can quickly and easily tweak the points costs of Grav guns to compensate.

 

But Power Levels ignore this.  They are immune to 'balancing' via point adjustment.  And loading up all your Grav capable units with as much Grav as humanly possible will still be the staple for Power Levels.

 

Ugh.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Lysere]

I think part of what will keep power levels in check is people will still probably build with points in mind since competitive settings will probably favor them, so unless you have a bunch of extra paladins blinged out just for power level play you'll just use what you have.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if most people play narrative style games with points instead of power levels unless playing really big games. I mean once you're looking at more than 3k points what's it matter if lists are a just a bit uneven. With so many units involved they'll drop in no time, and unless your entire collection is super blinged out you'll have other units with less upgrades.

[Gentlemanloser]

Its Narrative!  You're cool that all my Paladin are now armed with Hammers, right?

 

Not like it's matched play or aything! :P

[Captain Coolpants]

I actually dislike the power levels too. What's an ork army going to get for free? A few fists or rockets? But then tau will get all kinds of signature weapons and upgrades that amount to a crapton of points. Edited June 11, 2017 by Captain Coolpants

[Muaddib]

And Val, that's the exct reason I intensely dislike Power Levels.  Take our Paladin as an example;

 

Paladin Squad (10)  32 Power Level

 

Paladin Squad (10) - As we'd all run them, Storm Bolters, maybe 1 Hammer. 563 points.  Power Level 28

 

Paladin Squad (10) - Blinged out to the Max.  4 Psycannons, all Hammers.  760 points.  Power Level 38

 

​​In a Narrative game, using Power Levels, the Squad we'd usually run changes massively.  32 Power Level is roughly 640 points.  Yet we're allowed to stick a Hammer on every single Paladin, and get them at a significant discount.

 

Units that don't have as much (and as expensive) customisation as others, simply lose out in Power Levels.  Such as an Intercessor Squad with their flat cost of 6.

 

And we should enter every Power Level game with a Daemonhammer on each and every one of our Grey Knights.  Just because!

 

I also dislike the choice lost when list building.  Do you take this upgrade?  Is it worth the points it costs?  What else could you take instead?

 

Those decisions disappear, replaced with "LOAD UP ON EVERYTHING!  AS EXPENSIVE AS POSSIBLE" because otherwise you're missing out.

 

I hope Power Levels quickly get ignored by the community...

 

Edit: The oft spoken response to 'Balance' is now with 8th, everything can be balanced better, quicker and simpler with the way the Points system is.

 

Grav still OP OP?  (It's still the best imperial gun for every situation...)  GW can quickly and easily tweak the points costs of Grav guns to compensate.

 

But Power Levels ignore this.  They are immune to 'balancing' via point adjustment.  And loading up all your Grav capable units with as much Grav as humanly possible will still be the staple for Power Levels.

 

Ugh.

 

Ahahahaha...

Do you have any friends?? 'cause when you play with a friend you should be able to limit yourself. For friendship, fun, roleplay and movie-like fights, stuff like that...

 

With PL you can play every single units you want for the fun of it and your partner can do the same. And you balance the whole thing by picking the right mission. Who cares to loose if the game was fun and epic, i.e. if your outgunned and outnumbered elite force hold the line for 5 turns before collapsing or sacrifice succesfully for hunting Magnus?!?

 

I know my HC will plan games like that and i'm really glad of it. And I hope people will be able to play like this more often and finally remember that we're growing men playing with expensives toys... We're here for fun, nothing else.

[Soder]

Funny you said that. When I explained the matched psychic phase to my brother (an ork player) his first response was "No way!.. you must have read the rules wrong." I then showed him the rules. He just shook his head and said "why would they do that?!" and told me to just not listen to that "lame" rule.. lol

Edited June 11, 2017 by Valerian
Spell it out. No leet speak on the boards, please.

[Muaddib]

Funny u said that. When I explained the matched psychic phase to my brother (an ork player) his first response was "No way!.. you must have read the rules wrong." I then showed him the rules. He just shook his head and said "why would they do that?!" and told me to just not listen to that "lame" rule.. lol

I'm quite sure that after a few games ignoring that "lame" rule he'll change his mind about it. Having every units in your army able to teleport anywhere each turn is totally broke(n?). Especially if you're using tacticals objectives. To unnerf smite power could be a more balance solution, if needed. Or maybe to use one of each psychic power for every 1000pts in your army...

To be fair, I was angry too when I first read it. But I think, it is necessary for balance.

[Valerian]

And Val, that's the exct reason I intensely dislike Power Levels.  Take our Paladin as an example;

 

Paladin Squad (10)  32 Power Level

 

Paladin Squad (10) - As we'd all run them, Storm Bolters, maybe 1 Hammer. 563 points.  Power Level 28

 

Paladin Squad (10) - Blinged out to the Max.  4 Psycannons, all Hammers.  760 points.  Power Level 38

 

​​In a Narrative game, using Power Levels, the Squad we'd usually run changes massively.  32 Power Level is roughly 640 points.  Yet we're allowed to stick a Hammer on every single Paladin, and get them at a significant discount.

 

Units that don't have as much (and as expensive) customisation as others, simply lose out in Power Levels.  Such as an Intercessor Squad with their flat cost of 6.

 

And we should enter every Power Level game with a Daemonhammer on each and every one of our Grey Knights.  Just because!

 

I also dislike the choice lost when list building.  Do you take this upgrade?  Is it worth the points it costs?  What else could you take instead?

 

Those decisions disappear, replaced with "LOAD UP ON EVERYTHING!  AS EXPENSIVE AS POSSIBLE" because otherwise you're missing out.

 

I hope Power Levels quickly get ignored by the community...

 

Edit: The oft spoken response to 'Balance' is now with 8th, everything can be balanced better, quicker and simpler with the way the Points system is.

 

Grav still OP OP?  (It's still the best imperial gun for every situation...)  GW can quickly and easily tweak the points costs of Grav guns to compensate.

 

But Power Levels ignore this.  They are immune to 'balancing' via point adjustment.  And loading up all your Grav capable units with as much Grav as humanly possible will still be the staple for Power Levels.

 

Ugh.

 

If you're playing folks that will "load up" on stuff to take advantage of the flexibility of the Power Levels, then Matched play and Points is probably for you.  Clearly those folks aren't looking for the play style that Narrative has to offer.  If you're playing with your buddies, who have what they have, and aren't going to go snapping off all of their halberds to glue on daemonhammers that they bought in bulk from eBay bits stores, then Power Levels will probably work just fine.

[Kenderleech]

My local group is considering using power levels for our monthly apocalypse games.   Because ultimately, when there are titans on the table, who cares if the squad had 10 storm bolters, or 8 stormbolters and 2 psycannon?  the difference between a tac squad with all bolters, and a tac squad with a meltagun, plasma pistol and missile launcher is similarly small for games that have been running 16-20k points per team.

[Gentlemanloser]

Val, please don't bring the personal players into it.  It's a discussion of 'balance', regardless of who plays.

 

Power Levels are inherently unbalanced, in an edition that GW have touted as the most balanced and playtested ever.

 

We're the type of guys that proxy shampoo bottles as Titans if someone wants to see how one plays in game.

 

But when playing a competitive wargame with binary win/lose conditions, even in narrative play, the game is still designed to build your army in such a fashion to give you the best chance of winning.

 

Whatever narrative scenario you have chosen.

 

And loading up on free upgrades, because there isn't a single downside to *not* doing so, and this is part of the core rules, will be taken up by players.

 

And it's a disservice to berate the players for choosing to do so.

[Bartali]

 

And Val, that's the exct reason I intensely dislike Power Levels.  Take our Paladin as an example;

 

Paladin Squad (10)  32 Power Level

 

Paladin Squad (10) - As we'd all run them, Storm Bolters, maybe 1 Hammer. 563 points.  Power Level 28

 

Paladin Squad (10) - Blinged out to the Max.  4 Psycannons, all Hammers.  760 points.  Power Level 38

 

​​In a Narrative game, using Power Levels, the Squad we'd usually run changes massively.  32 Power Level is roughly 640 points.  Yet we're allowed to stick a Hammer on every single Paladin, and get them at a significant discount.

 

Units that don't have as much (and as expensive) customisation as others, simply lose out in Power Levels.  Such as an Intercessor Squad with their flat cost of 6.

 

And we should enter every Power Level game with a Daemonhammer on each and every one of our Grey Knights.  Just because!

 

I also dislike the choice lost when list building.  Do you take this upgrade?  Is it worth the points it costs?  What else could you take instead?

 

Those decisions disappear, replaced with "LOAD UP ON EVERYTHING!  AS EXPENSIVE AS POSSIBLE" because otherwise you're missing out.

 

I hope Power Levels quickly get ignored by the community...

 

Edit: The oft spoken response to 'Balance' is now with 8th, everything can be balanced better, quicker and simpler with the way the Points system is.

 

Grav still OP OP?  (It's still the best imperial gun for every situation...)  GW can quickly and easily tweak the points costs of Grav guns to compensate.

 

But Power Levels ignore this.  They are immune to 'balancing' via point adjustment.  And loading up all your Grav capable units with as much Grav as humanly possible will still be the staple for Power Levels.

 

Ugh.

 

Ahahahaha...

Do you have any friends?? 'cause when you play with a friend you should be able to limit yourself. For friendship, fun, roleplay and movie-like fights, stuff like that...

 

With PL you can play every single units you want for the fun of it and your partner can do the same. And you balance the whole thing by picking the right mission. Who cares to loose if the game was fun and epic, i.e. if your outgunned and outnumbered elite force hold the line for 5 turns before collapsing or sacrifice succesfully for hunting Magnus?!?

 

I know my HC will plan games like that and i'm really glad of it. And I hope people will be able to play like this more often and finally remember that we're growing men playing with expensives toys... We're here for fun, nothing else.

 

 

Oh great, it's the wrong fun brigade again.

 

Competitive players play for fun too

[Adeptus]

1 -  Points costs are just as arbitrary as power levels. Some things will be undercosted and good, while others are overcosted and worthless. Ref: Dreadknights and Purgation Squads in our last edition codex. Which leads us to...

 

2 - Power levels have the potential for abuse, but this is largely mitigated if you play wysiwyg. No counting Strikes as Interceptors, or Terminators as Paladins, and certainly no counting Swords or Halberds as Hammers. If you worry that you and your local players will engage in a race to the bottom by maximising power level efficiency, then simply don't play Narrative Games. They're not for you. They're for people who are more interested in 40K as a beer-and-pretzels game who enjoy their models doing wacky stuff on the table, but still want to have a relatively balanced experience. No one wants to feel like they're getting railroaded from turn one, so if your idea of fun is building the most maximised, efficient gaming collection possible, and using to engage in hyper-competitive games, then...

 

3 - Feel free to play Matched Play games to the exclusion of all else in a vain quest for a balanced play experience, but don't then turn around and lament the fact that the Matched Play mode doesn't offer much in the way of Narrative. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd be interested to find out how Matched play can't facilitate the same Narrative games as Narrative or Open Play.

 

Can you not have narrative games in Open Play either?

 

Can you play Narrative games with Points instead of Power Levels?

 

Shouldn't we just simply separate the story from the game?  As the story is what the individual players make of it, no matter which way they play...

[Muaddib]

 

 

And Val, that's the exct reason I intensely dislike Power Levels.  Take our Paladin as an example;

 

Paladin Squad (10)  32 Power Level

 

Paladin Squad (10) - As we'd all run them, Storm Bolters, maybe 1 Hammer. 563 points.  Power Level 28

 

Paladin Squad (10) - Blinged out to the Max.  4 Psycannons, all Hammers.  760 points.  Power Level 38

 

​​In a Narrative game, using Power Levels, the Squad we'd usually run changes massively.  32 Power Level is roughly 640 points.  Yet we're allowed to stick a Hammer on every single Paladin, and get them at a significant discount.

 

Units that don't have as much (and as expensive) customisation as others, simply lose out in Power Levels.  Such as an Intercessor Squad with their flat cost of 6.

 

And we should enter every Power Level game with a Daemonhammer on each and every one of our Grey Knights.  Just because!

 

I also dislike the choice lost when list building.  Do you take this upgrade?  Is it worth the points it costs?  What else could you take instead?

 

Those decisions disappear, replaced with "LOAD UP ON EVERYTHING!  AS EXPENSIVE AS POSSIBLE" because otherwise you're missing out.

 

I hope Power Levels quickly get ignored by the community...

 

Edit: The oft spoken response to 'Balance' is now with 8th, everything can be balanced better, quicker and simpler with the way the Points system is.

 

Grav still OP OP?  (It's still the best imperial gun for every situation...)  GW can quickly and easily tweak the points costs of Grav guns to compensate.

 

But Power Levels ignore this.  They are immune to 'balancing' via point adjustment.  And loading up all your Grav capable units with as much Grav as humanly possible will still be the staple for Power Levels.

 

Ugh.

 

 

Ahahahaha...

Do you have any friends?? 'cause when you play with a friend you should be able to limit yourself. For friendship, fun, roleplay and movie-like fights, stuff like that...

 

With PL you can play every single units you want for the fun of it and your partner can do the same. And you balance the whole thing by picking the right mission. Who cares to loose if the game was fun and epic, i.e. if your outgunned and outnumbered elite force hold the line for 5 turns before collapsing or sacrifice succesfully for hunting Magnus?!?

 

I know my HC will plan games like that and i'm really glad of it. And I hope people will be able to play like this more often and finally remember that we're growing men playing with expensives toys... We're here for fun, nothing else.

 

Oh great, it's the wrong fun brigade again.

 

Competitive players play for fun too

Don't get me wrong. I play mostly competitives games so far. And i like tournaments. BUT, if i decide to play with power levels with à friend I won't try to optimize my list. It's just not the point. But I didn't meant to moralize anyone :)

 

And for the record, your the one who wish to see power levels vanish. Narratives players are a real thing too...

[Valerian]

GML, maybe reread my post; I didn't berate anyone, or any type of player. I simply said that there are certain players that aren't a good match for power levels, which is completely true, and not a judgmental statement.

 

 

Can you play Narrative games with Points instead of Power Levels?

 

Yes, you absolutely can mix and match aspects of the rules sets, and I'm sure many groups that are more comfortable with traditional points will choose to use them in non-Matched style games.

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh I know mate, just trying to head off more "no friends" comments.

 

Conversely, I think that Power Levels are no match for any players.  If you just want to lay down models, we can do that with open play.  If you're using a 'Narrative' scenario, you can base units bought by the scenario itself.

 

Unlimted Ork hordes (whatever your opponent has) versus any 10 Crimson Fists you want to field for a Rynn's World narrative.

 

Unlimited bloodletters, 10 Thirsters and Angron, versus 100 GKT.

 

The Narrative scenarios write themselves.  No need for abstract Power levels.

 

And if you want a 'balanced' (as much as GW have balanced 8th it seems...) Narrative game, use Points.

 

Points detract nothing from a Narrative scenario, and are as future proofed as you can get in 8th.

 

Power Levels are not.

 

Edit: Oh and Muaddib, you stance seems confused.

 

Saying on one hand that you should be able to limit yourself with friends and who cares as long as it's epic, and on the other that not using the rule of 1 leads to OP Gating every unit and no one would want to play like that.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Muaddib]

 

"Saying on one hand that you should be able to limit yourself with friends and who cares as long as it's epic, and on the other that not using the rule of 1 leads to OP Gating every unit and no one would want to play like that"

Rule of one is for matchplay. With those I play to win, against any player of my local store. Not the same thing.

Anyway we start w/ a 35PL tournament in the store next Saturday, I'll see then if I'm totally wrong :/

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

 

 

Also, if they were so worried about psychic dominance, why is Smite exempt from this? Spamming Mortal wounds at 24" seems far more concerning than multi-casting 'Hammerhand' around, for example. 

 

 

I haven't looked closely at the other high-Psychic factions, but ours at least is a reduced Smite with half the range and only a single mortal wound, so spamming that isn't a big concern at all.

 

 

 

The Power Ratings are arbitrary and meaningless. ... Point costs is still the best balancing factor to the game,...

 

 

The Power Levels are actually derived directly from the Points costs of a unit.  They've taken the lowest cost for a unit (no upgrades) and the highest cost for a unit (fully upgraded) and taken the average, then divided by 20.  For those that have been playing games with them so far, they seem to be working just fine.

 

No idea for Xenos, but it's even worse for Thousand sons, not going to lie tempted to just give up on 40k for a bit due to the psychic rules or 8th essentially making my Grey knights and Thousand armies more likely to self disintegrate then anything.

Trying to be positive, has anyone had any good experiences with GK in 8th yet?