Lord Kallozar Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 I'm confused with Khornes interaction with magic/sorcery... We all know that Khorne dispises sorcery/magic so how does Khorne manage to have his own domain in the warp when the warp is made of psychic and magic stuff?? How does Khorne manage to cast daemons into the material realm when that is magic/sorcery? How do Khorne daemon engines exist too because isn't the bonding of machine and daemon meant to be magic/sorcery too? Just confused. Please clarify these for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334092-khorne-and-magic/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Don't even get me started. The warp is made of magic, Khorne's refusal to use magic would be as if a mortal king took umbrage with the air and commanded his armies to cease breathing. As for daemon engines in particular, I'm not sure how much of this lore remains cannon, but in the past they were produced not by the chaos gods themselves, but by the soul forge (and/or forges, whether it's a singular entity or a multitude of disconnected locations was never super clear), a power in the warp unaligned to any of the four gods, that built bio-mechanical bodies for daemonic spirits in exchange for binding contracts entitling the forge to a share of the mortal souls taken by the newborn daemon engine, and compelling the daemon to protect the forge from any threats - a compulsion so powerful that even a daemon engine could be forced to defy its own patron should one of the gods chosoe to attack the forge. The result yet another balancing act a la with Abaddon, where the four powers all end up sharing a tool that advances all of their interest, and none can afford to attempt to take solitary control of it because in doing so they'd be temporarily weakening themselves and exposing themselves to attacks from all three of their divine rivals. Regardless, while the construction of daemon engines absolutely included magic and sorcery, it was not performed by creatures that were themselves aligned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334092-khorne-and-magic/#findComment-4763975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beachymike123 Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Khorne despises magic/psychic abilities that would take place instead of close combat. Think of it like this: Summoning Bloodletters onto the field = good. The Daemons can sow a good harvest in the name of Khorne. Using lightning bolts to fight instead of gooing one on one in close combat = bad. In Khorne's eyes you aren't using might to best your opponent and relying on tricks instead. There are a lot of mixed messages when it comes to Khorne and sorcery, but as long as blood flows and skulls are taken in shows of might to the Blood God, he doesn't care. Its a simplification I know, but I don't have my source books close at hand (although fairly sure IA:13 has a part about Khorne not truly detesting it as he needs it for making daemon engines etc). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334092-khorne-and-magic/#findComment-4763987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Even that's BS, though, since Khorne has absolutely no problem with non-magical attacks that happen at range and thus kill things out of close combat, while he does hate magic even when it's being used to enhance close combat or move units into close combat. It's all hogwash. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334092-khorne-and-magic/#findComment-4764051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beachymike123 Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 We are talking about a setting where armed fungi decimate human settlements on a whim and our thoughts can create a being of immeasurable power. I wouldn't look too much into it. To me it makes sense in a way, to you it doesn't make sense in that way. Neither view is right or wrong. Additionally, it was summed up in someone's sig on here thatng that Khorne detesting magic is like us detesting bones and thus want our skeleton removed. Something along those lines ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334092-khorne-and-magic/#findComment-4764090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Don't even get me started. The warp is made of magic, Khorne's refusal to use magic would be as if a mortal king took umbrage with the air and commanded his armies to cease breathing. As for daemon engines in particular, I'm not sure how much of this lore remains cannon, but in the past they were produced not by the chaos gods themselves, but by the soul forge (and/or forges, whether it's a singular entity or a multitude of disconnected locations was never super clear), a power in the warp unaligned to any of the four gods, that built bio-mechanical bodies for daemonic spirits in exchange for binding contracts entitling the forge to a share of the mortal souls taken by the newborn daemon engine, and compelling the daemon to protect the forge from any threats - a compulsion so powerful that even a daemon engine could be forced to defy its own patron should one of the gods chosoe to attack the forge. The result yet another balancing act a la with Abaddon, where the four powers all end up sharing a tool that advances all of their interest, and none can afford to attempt to take solitary control of it because in doing so they'd be temporarily weakening themselves and exposing themselves to attacks from all three of their divine rivals. Regardless, while the construction of daemon engines absolutely included magic and sorcery, it was not performed by creatures that were themselves aligned. Waaaaaaaay before the Soul Forge was even a thing, (like back in 2nd Edition or something?) the lore used to be that Khorne has a bunch of Tzeentchian daemons captured and enslaved and they made all of Khorne's magical artifacts. (Since he and by extension his daemons refused/couldn't do magical smithing/artificing themselves.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334092-khorne-and-magic/#findComment-4768575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Just another example of why khornes hang ups are dumb and bad fluff, and always have been, and now they're too entrenched to change. A shining example of something dumb that everyone sticks to just because 'it's always been that way'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334092-khorne-and-magic/#findComment-4768706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 How does Khorne manage to cast daemons into the material realm when that is magic/sorcery? How do Khorne daemon engines exist too because isn't the bonding of machine and daemon meant to be magic/sorcery too? The art of summoning and binding daemons is called daemonancy and doesn't require psychic powers. There's plenty of instances where daemons are summoned trough bloodshed alone (Khorne Daemonkin, Night Lords, Crimson Path). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334092-khorne-and-magic/#findComment-4768822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 How does Khorne manage to cast daemons into the material realm when that is magic/sorcery? How do Khorne daemon engines exist too because isn't the bonding of machine and daemon meant to be magic/sorcery too? The art of summoning and binding daemons is called daemonancy and doesn't require psychic powers. There's plenty of instances where daemons are summoned trough bloodshed alone (Khorne Daemonkin, Night Lords, Crimson Path). Technically, the lore has distinguished that the whole of sorcery does not require psychic powers and we actually have instances of Khorne daemons and Khorne aligned psykers/sorcerers performing "blood magick". Basically Khorne's issue with "magick" is when people/daemons use it to avoid combat rather than perpetuate it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334092-khorne-and-magic/#findComment-4768917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Shumway Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Wait, the warp is made of "magic"? I thought it was emotion or something too complex for humans to understand so the daemons laugh at us when we say "magic". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334092-khorne-and-magic/#findComment-4769012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Wait, the warp is made of "magic"? I thought it was emotion or something too complex for humans to understand so the daemons laugh at us when we say "magic".That would be the background accurate way of describing it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334092-khorne-and-magic/#findComment-4769044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Basically Khorne's issue with "magick" is when people/daemons use it to avoid combat rather than perpetuate it. But again, psychic powers can be used to perpetuate combat. In fact, the most powerful CSM psychic power in the 8th ed index is an extra move that will most commonly be used to move units into assault range. The fact that Khorne turns up his nose at this is directly contrary to his supposed interests. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334092-khorne-and-magic/#findComment-4769886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Really? That must be why I pointed out that there instances in which both Khorne Daemons and Khorne worshippers use psychic shenanigans. You know, because they proved my point. Just like they did in the 99 other threads about this same topic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334092-khorne-and-magic/#findComment-4770299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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