8th Edition Ultramarine Tactica and Unit discussion.

[Ishagu]

Hi I thought I should start up a new topic for us to discuss how our tactics will shape up, and also one in which we can discuss our units in 8th edition. I'll get started, pulling a few messages I wrote in another topic.

 

First of all I'll briefly discuss the Primarch. He'll bolster shooting to units around him significantly - best to advance him behind some tanks potentially? Re -rolling hits AND wounds is very powerful. I'm anticipating the effect on FW units like Sicarans, Deredeos, Quad Mortars etc. He'll function as a very strong counter charge unit also if he plays up to this role - his Ganuntlet makes him Str 12, his sword is Str8 but also has the ability to cause an additional D3 Mortal Wounds on a roll of a 6.

His Shooting attack is better against weak, numerous units but less effective against elite infantry. He also adds 1 to advances and charges, adds command points and gives re-rolls to Morale tests. Unfortunately he can't ride in a Landraider or benefit from the Apothecary's healing. We can use a Command Point to re-roll his resurrection however, that's pretty cool!

 

Calgar is great though he feels a lot more generic - basically a budget Guilliman but good if you want to save points to use elsewhere. Nice damage protection from his armour! Seriously why doesn't Guilliman have this?

 

The Librarius psychic powers are brilliant, some of the best I've seen so far but the Chaos power allowing double movement is something I'm envious of!

 

Tigarius is fantastic, he still re-rolls psychic tests although he doesn't seem as impressive as he used to be and can only cast two powers. I'll probably be running him alongside another Librarian.

Telion is great as a budget HQ. He can grant a squad of snipers +1 to hit, and they all have 2+ saves in cover. I think this will be useful for character hunting!

Chronus is decent for his cost. A good buff to a vehicle, and is actually a pretty decent little character once out of it!

 

Honour Guard are good for helping keep characters alive, but they can be picked off. Techmarines are actually good at fixing vehicles and are worth consideration. Apothecaries are also a useful unit, can easily see how they can help keep Centurions or other Multi Wound models going.

 

The Primaris Marines from what I've seen so far aren't blowing my socks off. Also, they can't ride in any transports (Not even a Landraider!) and this is an obvious ply to sell us Primaris transports down the line. I find it amusing that a vehicle called "Primaris Rhino" can't transport Primaris Marines.

 

A few other units I really like are: Tartaros Terminatos (Hand down better than shooting Termies), Centurions of both varieties (Guilliman can really make these guys scary in Shooting or Assaulting), Ironclad Dreadnoughts (now clearly superior to a Contemptor as it doesn't degrade in performance and is tougher).

[Schultzhoffen]

It seems as if everything is pricier, so if the standard is 2000 points, I'll still have a smaller army than I did at 1750 points. Makes for tough choices, really.

 

How good are chaplains, bikers, assault squads? What are the benefits of pods?

 

To me, the stalker seems fantastic. I'm assuming 2 Icarus storm cannons? That's a lot of shots. They are also far better v ground targets now. They may be my go to tank in 8th.

 

I'm not convinced by some thing, though. Speeders seem to pricy for their fragility.

[IronDrake28]

The Terminus Ultra looks awesome, so glad they brought it back. It's a shame you can't put Chronus in it though. XD

[robofish7591]

A while back I was thinking of kitbashing a terminus ultra but ended up not doing it since there really weren't current rules.... Well, guess who's getting a new land raider!

[Ishagu]

My issue with a Terminus Ultra is the 600 point price tag in matched play!

I think I'm going to struggle to fit the army I intended in 2k...

 

Hmmm

[Captain Idaho]

Yes I'm liking the Stalker. It's genuinely a powerful weapon system now.

 

Since it is better at pulping models with Fly, it's great for hurting our danger enemies. Stuff like Crisis Suits, Eldar vehicles and jump pack troops and Daemons, we can expect to wrack up some decent kills.

[Frater Cornelius]

To be fair, I am a bit peeved. Not the reason you might think. Primaris are not a separate entity, but incorporated into Marines. However, they can not use transports. It feels like a synergetic disconnect. Moreover, it encourages mixes Primaris and Astartes armies, something I wanted to avoid at all cost. It really gave a blow to my plans and I feel discouraged to touch Marines at all.

 

When looking at it tacticaly, you are better off ignoring Primaris (with the possible exception of Helblasters) and focusing on the rest. Seems smarter and more effective. G man overshadows Calgar at 2k, so he is very welcome with his buffs.

[Schultzhoffen]

What are the points like for the xenos armies? Also very pricy? Would be interesting to see if marines are a smaller army than before but xenos aren't.

 

I still think things like speeders are way too fragile for their cost.

 

I really wanted to build an 8th ed army around a solid core of tactical but due to the cost of particularly rhinos and tanks, I'll be skimping on them. Min troops all the way.

 

Such a pity.

 

I'll build an army around vets on bikes with power weapons and stormshields, an ironclad or two, x3 stalker tanks and centurions.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Schultzhoffen

[Seahawk]

I'm going to wait on this til I have books in hand.

[phoenix01]

I'm trying to figure out how the pricing works for vehicles. For example, I want to have a bare bones basic Land Raider. That's 239 points (does not include wargear). Does that mean I have to add 25 points for each lascannon (100 points for two twin links) plus 10 points for each heavy bolter (20 points for the twin link) for a total of 359 points? Or does the 239 point value include the basic weapon loadout? Can I have a Land Raider without the lascannons or heavy bolters, just a box? Reason I ask is the leaked photo of the weapon prices shows the Predator autocannon costing 49 points. If the Predator comes with the autocannon as reflected in the points, why have a point value for it? Some weapons and wargear seem to have zero point values (boltguns, DCCWs, and teleport homers for a few examples), so why don't they have a point value greater than zero if they aren't reflected in the points.

[Frater Cornelius]

There are prices for Twin-linked weapons as well, so you use those.

[Ishagu]

My Ultramarines Landraider is 385 points lol.

 

Why oh why did I stick that Multi Melta on... I'm stubborn though, it's staying on there!

[Schultzhoffen]

I'm yet to be convinced that vehicles are actually more durable, considering their cost. It seems as if a Land Raider could be badly crippled by a volley by a hellblaster squad, yet will cost nearly twice what  the squad does. Admittedly, a Land Raider can be destroyed with one shot in 7th but something still feels off to me...I'm not sure but I do think vehicles are way to pricey. I think I'll need to play some games before getting my head around the new norm.

 

When you add in the potential for mortal wounds to passengers, transport vehicle look less appealing. 

 

I feel that if you're going LRs, you need at least 2-3 and build an army around that as a strategy, one raider won't last very long at all.

 

All will be ok if Xenos vehicles are as expensive. Does anyone know if they are?

 

Anyway, we'll see...

[sultansean]

Fire Prism is 168

Monolith is 381

Hammerhead with Rail gun and two burst cannons is 175  

[Schultzhoffen]

I somehow don't think a predator tank is better than either a fire prism or hammerhead, yet it seems more expensive.

[phoenix01]

I'm wondering if the wacky points values are done to push more people to play open or narrative games rather than matched play.

[IronDrake28]

They've been pushing matched play a lot. Every faction focus has talked about them trying to balance everything, and the Facebook page guys have said the game is as balanced as they possibly could.

[LordDrakon]

I've had 2 games of 8th so far. Guilliman is beast! The rerolls to hit and wound are clutch! Grav cannons still rock and while not redick anymore are better overall vs everything I played VA my buddies de and wow am I glad for the stat change on them. So far I've gone all.on foot to get bodies on the table x3 tacs with gravcanon x2 devs with 4 grv cannons guilliman primarius ancient (the 4+ yo shoot when a guy dies is amazing as well as the ld buff) a squad of cataphractii terminators with power and chain fist for counter assault with a captain in catapractice armour and finally hell blaster squad cause I'm not too sure if I want a 3rd development squad.

[Prot]

So you used the hellblaster squad or you plan to use one? How did it go using one?

[LordDrakon]

I've used hell blaster in two games now and overall with rerolls from either guilliman or captain they have been great. I :cussed up abit and missed the guilliman is still a lord of war so I'm swapping the veterans to plasma and adding a primaris lt. I may feel the sting of no drop meltas but overall I've been underwhelmed by them so far.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hellblaster are baller. With Captain and Lieutenant re-rolls they easily cleared out a Trygon Prime and Mawloc. Scary, but they need the Repulsor, lest they get shot to pieces.

[Brother Christopher]

I've a different concern; don't you think that Stormtalons are now vastly over costed compared to Stormhawks? Or do you think that the +1 to hit on ground targets warrants the spike in points?

[garreth]

I've a different concern; don't you think that Stormtalons are now vastly over costed compared to Stormhawks? Or do you think that the +1 to hit on ground targets warrants the spike in points?

Agree. Taking Icarus stormcannon and skyhammer missile launchers make decent anty-FLY platform (Hit 2+). Add re-roll 1-s on saves and ability to shoot 360 degree is awesome IMO.

[garreth]

Stormraven looks good to me with all it's firepower. And as a sole transport for Ironclad.
Hurricane bolter are so cheap that I start to think it'll be good on Ironclad too.

[Ishagu]

Stormtalons are more expensive because they can hover.

 

The movement restrictions on some flyers are pretty crushing, imo. A hovering flyer can at least remain in thr buff auras of characters.