8th Edition Ultramarine Tactica and Unit discussion.

[Ishagu]

Just to confirm, any model can now be assigned to Chapter Ultramarines/IF/IH etc, is this correct?

 

I've seen there's some contention over at the Chaos forum about some limitations relating to the Death Guard?

[Sugarlessllama]

So I got my Imperial Index 1 & 2 this weekend. And from what I read, the Chapter to unit belongs to is the chapter you are playing. So all of my models will have the <Chapter> keyword of <Imperial Consuls>, and unless you are playing <Ultramarines> you cannot use named characters. I think people are still going to use Counts As, but I think it is going to be disallowed at bigger events now.

 

On a side note, I am LOVING the new Centurions Devastator rules. I can't wait to put them on the table. :D

[ronin_cse]

Just to confirm, any model can now be assigned to Chapter Ultramarines/IF/IH etc, is this correct?

 

I've seen there's some contention over at the Chaos forum about some limitations relating to the Death Guard?

 

It's because Death Guard and Thousand Sons have their own army lists, basically the same way Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Space Wolves are handled in the Imperial Index, and can only take what they are listed as having access to. Same way that Ultramarines can't take the DA specific stuff and vice versa.

[ARWinter]

Two things

 

1) Does taking a combi-weapon on sternguard remove the special issue boltgun rule from the boltgun part of the profile?

 

2) What does the damage on calgar's armour of antilochus being halved mean? 

[Ishagu]

Two things

 

1) Does taking a combi-weapon on sternguard remove the special issue boltgun rule from the boltgun part of the profile?

 

2) What does the damage on calgar's armour of antilochus being halved mean?

1: It appears they lose the special issue bolt guns, unfortunately :-(

 

2: Some weapons do multiple Damage once you fail a save. If a Las Cannon hits Calgar and you fail an invul, and your opponent rolled 6 damage - Calgar would only take 3 damage. Same effect with cc weapons.

[Captain Idaho]

So far there doesn't appear to be any rules for specific Chapters outside special units and characters.

 

I suspect we'll see something along the lines of Command Points in the future. (I hope)

[Prot]

On SIA I can say it appears Deathwatch keep the SIA but I do not know for certain with Ultras.

 

On the Stormtalon. All I can tell you is the Deathwatch guys seem pretty envious of it because of survivability ( the Corvus Infernum got nerfed) but also everyone seems to like the Stormraven now.

 

Side question: does a flyer even have to face what it is shooting anymore? Because if not then hover really would be best for transports? Facings seem far less important this edition???

 

On Faction keywords: this does seem to be a bigger thing for chaos Legions for example. Thousand sons get advantages to troop types and limitations to other units. But I feel like it's not a big deal to Astartes until codexes and/or other faction rules get fleshed out.

[ARWinter]

 

Two things

 

1) Does taking a combi-weapon on sternguard remove the special issue boltgun rule from the boltgun part of the profile?

 

2) What does the damage on calgar's armour of antilochus being halved mean?

1: It appears they lose the special issue bolt guns, unfortunately :-(

 

2: Some weapons do multiple Damage once you fail a save. If a Las Cannon hits Calgar and you fail an invul, and your opponent rolled 6 damage - Calgar would only take 3 damage. Same effect with cc weapons.

 

 

Aww thats a shame, gotta work out if taking 5 combi meltas is worth it now, especially with the increase in price of a drop pod. 

 

Ohhh i see thats really strong. 

 

Also unless im missing it somewhere its a shame that teleport homers only seem to be deployed within the deployment zone now, rather than being able to attach them to squads. Guess it does allow for some interesting shenanigans to be played if needed. 

[Bmseifer]

Regarding point costs:

 

It seems like the general consensus is that we pay for each weapon the model has, even the ones that come stock? Are we sure it's not only for added wargear?

 

Its strange that there is a 160 point cost difference between a regular LR and the Terminus Ultra when its pretty much the same 'chassis' before you add the weapons cost. The TU even comes with two drawbacks, no transport and the 'roll three '1s'' rule

[Prot]

Right now it's my understanding you pay for everything. I've had people disagree with me so I'm sure as usual it's GW's wording and presentation that has made this an uncertainty, but I believe you pay for everything... even stock weapons (you'll find many unique ones are set at "0" points).

 

Just a side note: games I'm playing right now are using Power Level. It's way faster, and re-explaining the points system can cause some real headaches because of the difficulty in making lists.... The Power Level thing seems to take care of it all for fun games.

[Guiltysparc]

Right now it's my understanding you pay for everything. I've had people disagree with me so I'm sure as usual it's GW's wording and presentation that has made this an uncertainty, but I believe you pay for everything... even stock weapons (you'll find many unique ones are set at "0" points).

 

Just a side note: games I'm playing right now are using Power Level. It's way faster, and re-explaining the points system can cause some real headaches because of the difficulty in making lists.... The Power Level thing seems to take care of it all for fun games.

 

This is the way it is.  Its pretty clear in the index books once you take a look.  Its definitely a little wonky at first, but only becuase we are already trained to do it the other way.  Overall its a good thing as they can tune gear and units totally separately for balance.  

 

Unrelated to that, i'm looking at starting up a primaris ultramarines army with the stater box for 8th and was wondering what exting SM units you guys might pick up to compliment the stater contents.  Going to be my first loyalist army so looking at all the options you guys have coming from chaos is a bit staggering!

[Prot]

That's  a really tough question to answer right now...

 

To be honest I would look at the Detachment you want to fill first. Then put your Primaris units within that detachment and look at what you have to fill next to meet the detachment requirements.

 

So let's say with the Battalion Detachment (basically the old CAD). Plop your Primaris in there, what do you have left? You may want to use Sniper Scouts (I intend on it), or beef up on Centurions with an Apothecary. Or perhaps your more a vehicle guy?

 

I mean really you have to figure out what your playstyle is going to be like and experiment from there.

 

I am hearing some underwhelming things about the Primaris but I have not tried them yet myself. So it maybe an issue of keeping them protected with some heavy hitters (dreads?) etc, etc.

 

Some units really used to work well for me but I don't feel that confident with them now. Perfect example is to me the Whirlwind went up a notch, and the Thunderfire went down a notch. It's really a matter of finding your niche and then going with that theme.

[Guiltysparc]

The battalion certainly seems to be the detachment to go with, so another troop choice would be good.  I feel like snipers are going to be a must in almost every list so you can take out character synergies, though i'm reading Nemesis and am thinking about adding a vindicare and/or cullexus (i'll be playing against 1k sons a lot) to the army for that task.  A unit of scout snipers plus the assassin would fill the detachment, take care of the anti-character role, and (probably) not overlap with any new primaris models.  I definitely want to get some combat units on the ground, but i'm pretty sure we'll see some primaris combat units soon.

[Bmseifer]

At a first glance it seems like even more hassle than before to build armies using the points system.

 

I'm glad the power level alternative seem to work because that's how we're planning to play in my group.

[Thunder_god]

Power level appears to me to be a better way to balance the game than point levels. That said, I haven't had a chance to read through everything yet, and probably won't until I get my preorder in the 17th.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Power level appears to me to be a better way to balance the game than point levels. That said, I haven't had a chance to read through everything yet, and probably won't until I get my preorder in the 17th.

Only if both players are not deliberately modeling for free points. Granted, even then it might be ok. But That Guy is easy to spot at least.

[Ishagu]

I've built a list using the point system for a game I have on Thursday. Once you've done it once or twice it's not a problem.

 

The power levels don't have parity with points if you try to compare army sizes, etc. The game is clearly more balanced when using points.

[Bmseifer]

I've built a list using the point system for a game I have on Thursday. Once you've done it once or twice it's not a problem.

 

The power levels don't have parity with points if you try to compare army sizes, etc. The game is clearly more balanced when using points.

 

The point system being the most balanced way to play is a no-brainer, otherwise what would be the point of it?

 

But I do hope the power level is balanced enough for casual play. One thing I really like about it is that there will be no legit reason to not wysiwyg anymore :)

[Ishagu]

Casual play should still be fun, and the most fun way to play is to have evenly matched armies?

[Ishagu]

Going back to topic, has anyone noticed that Tyrannic War Veterans are basically Sternguard with a bonus against Nids?

Same points and same basic equipment now - If you're running basic Sternguard I see no reason not to take TWV instead.

[Captain Idaho]

The question is why would you run basic Sternguard? Combi weapons, special weapons and even Heavy Flamers are all things a player should use for Sternguard.

[Ishagu]

Points get very high!

The special issue boltgun is a good, cheap weapon. You lose it when you take a combi.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Ishagu

[Bmseifer]

Going back to topic, has anyone noticed that Tyrannic War Veterans are basically Sternguard with a bonus against Nids?

Same points and same basic equipment now - If you're running basic Sternguard I see no reason not to take TWV instead.

 

Sorry for sidetracking.

 

Back to tactics: I'm planning to use Calgar in termie armour. With him being HQ now he fits nicely in a detachment, teleporting in alongside a unit of shooty terminators as a nice distraction and serious threat if left alone. Btw, what's the point of him having a relic blade? fluff reasons?

 

I'm also planning to try a Land Raider and techmarine combo. The techie is pretty much untargetable as long as he hides behind the tank while repairing it

[Toxichobbit]

I'm really interested in people's views and experiences so far with combis vs special issue bolters. I like the special issue bolters and was initially bummed out that taking combis meant loosing them. I'd become used to the old special issue ammo + combi  ... combination, that had an answer for every situation. Thinking about it some more though, combis are significantly better. They don't run out of shots anymore and can fire both weapons at once. That feels like it's a huge improvement. Also I don't rate special issue bolters that much. They're decent, but not even close to the old special issue ammo. I don't feel that I'm loosing out on much by dropping the special issue bolters for combis. The issue is, as Ishagu mentioned, the points difference.

 

Casual play should still be fun, and the most fun way to play is to have evenly matched armies?

 

Nope, evenly matched armies isn't the most fun way to play, at least not for everyone. It's entirely subjective, balance does not automatically equal fun. It really depends on what each individual wants from the game and can run the gamut from hyper competitive players, who get the most satisfaction from the tactical challenge of two balanced armies, to players who just enjoy getting their models on the table.
 

[Captain Idaho]

Points get very high!

The special issue boltgun is a good, cheap weapon. You lose it when you take a combi.

Just taking 2 plasma guns would be a better unit and still cost effective.