8th List, points discussion and considerations.

[Morticon]

Hey all! 

So, while I'm generally displeased as to the watering down of army rules across the board, I take solace in the fact that its not just us.

 

 I have put together a 2k list (since I think this will be the new standard) and have included some thoughts and considerations. I've put together something that is very similar to my expected playstyle- and i think anyone that knows me will not be surprised. 

 

Thoughts, comments and questions or observations welcome. 

 

Battalion Detachment

 

HQ:

 

Mephiston

Astorath (though, debating lemartes too)

Priest on a bike - Power Maul

 

ELITE:

 

10x DC with JP.  - Fist, Infernus, 2x Power Weapons of choice. 

 

TROOPS:

10x Tactical - Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Power Sword, Plasma Pistol

Rhino 

10x Tactical - Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Power Fist, Plasma Pistol

Rhino

10x Tactical - Lascannon, Meltagun

Razorback - TL-Assault Cannon

FAST: 

10x Assault with JP - Power Fist, 2x Plasma Pistol, Flamer, Eviscerator

2x Attack Bikes - 2 MultiMelta

 

HEAVY:

 

6x Devastators - 3x Gravcannons

Rhino 


That's 2k.  

 

 

 

OBSERVATIONS:

 

What i've noticed is that our infantry has gotten cheaper for the most part, but standard heavy and special weapons have increased greatly. 

However, powerweapons/fists of all types as well as pistols have come down greatly. (half the cost now for PP). And 1 point less than a 7th ed flamer for a power weapon!! 

Transports are deathly expensive, meaning they may not see as much play in future- but i cant analyse this at the moment. Will need to see how much can be brought to the table and how much can kill them. 

 

I think at 2k, its very thin on the ground, but having said that, there are 60 bodies on the field! 

 

Most of you know that my general philosophy is to ensure every unit can do something.  8th seems to reinforce that idea, especially with our tacticals being very solid in this regard. 

 

I feel the list is highly reactive and super quick.  It relies on a lot of bubble play from the characters, but has some decent support elsewhere. 


HQ: 

There are some crazy psychic powers out there.  Mephy is a really, really good defense against this.  He's also a stellar beatstick.  For that reason, and the fact that we can give shield to units nearby- he is a solid choice for me- especially given his cost. 

The priest, being able to bring back models (implication being with wargear) is also an auto-include for me. The +1 strength from the grail also gives me a solid BA feel.  T5 on the bike is very much needed- so, ill forgo his deepstrike mobility for that survivability.

Astorath, with his once a battle ability, is a great choice- hes a solid  buffer unit...so, im happy to see him finally get some game play.  Lemartes was a close second for the reroll to charge- but, i think astorath has more of an overall utility role.  

ELITE:

 

The DC took a big hit in power -but theyre really nicely costed.  So, I'm a fan - especially with the hero buffs above. extra attacks on 6s, S5, rerolls....solid, I say. 
The infernus is almost a necessity now because of the damage output.  

 

TROOPS:

 

The humble tactical marine.  Kitted to do anything.  Flamers because of autohits- meltas because its needed!! The one 10man is a lascaddy and support unit

HEAVY: 

 

I had about 200 points to spare.  I think while grav took a hard nerf, theyre still VERY strong. Almost every vehicle has a 3+ save, so while we're only wounding on 5s, the d3 damage and -3 av is really good, i feel.  It will also vape marine units. 

 

So.....i'm going to test it out on Saturday.  Will let you know how it plays and how 8th plays in general. 

 

 

[sebs_evo7]

Where does mephiston go?

[Morticon]

He runs up behind the jumpers - as fast as can -advancing where possible, and eventually charging into the fray. 

 

edit:  He will try to be as close as possible to the enemy to reduce incoming spells.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Morticon

[CaptainHelion]

Looking forward to hearing how it does for you. So much of 8th is just a mystery, so we really need to get out and explore.

[Morticon]

Looking forward to hearing how it does for you. So much of 8th is just a mystery, so we really need to get out and explore.

Im playing against Tristan's Sisters...and he put together something which looks absolutely horrific.  

[CaptainHelion]

Oooohohohoho I WILL be interested in the outcomes, then! Sisters being my "secondary" army. :D

[Xenith]

 

HQ:

Mephiston

Astorath (though, debating lemartes too)

Priest on a bike - Power Maul

 

ELITE:

10x DC with JP.  - Fist, Infernus, 2x Power Weapons of choice. 

 

TROOPS:

10x Tactical - Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Power Sword, Plasma Pistol

Rhino 

10x Tactical - Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Power Fist, Plasma Pistol

Rhino

10x Tactical - Lascannon, Meltagun

Razorback - TL-Assault Cannon

 

FAST: 

10x Assault with JP - Power Fist, 2x Plasma Pistol, Flamer, Eviscerator

2x Attack Bikes - 2 MultiMelta

 

HEAVY:

6x Devastators - 3x Gravcannons

Rhino 

 

That's 2k.  

 

I'd try and drop something to find 16 pts to upgrade the plasma pistols on the tac sergeants to combi plasmas - just over double the cost for twice the shots, and you dont lose any attacks for not having 2ccw any more. 

 

Likewise id try to find the points to give the transports additional storm bolters. 2pts for rapid fire 2 is golden.

[Morticon]

I think the SB is a really great suggestion.  Will look to it.  

 

The Combi-plas, im unsure of.  Defs better range and shooting, but the ability to shoot within 1" is quite good in my mind? WIll have to see what I could squeeze out.  Maybe change a grav to two HBs

[NTaW]

Combi-weapons and pistols both got solid boosts with this edition, I'd wager it's worth trying both out as things develop.

 

Personally I'm more interested in pistols as I much prefer combat over shooting. Totally 'that guy' who charges with his Devastators instead of shooting the heavy weapons :lol:

[vahouth]

Have you considered adding Primaris in your lists yet?

I'm somewhat considering helblasters and the jump packed ones.

[redshadow]

Lascannons and melta guns everywhere for me, I think gravs will come up a little short..

Splitting fire to slow transports or cripple tanks will be a lot easy with lascannon or 5 deep striking melta guns on a company vet squad

[Damon Nightman]

I think the list looks solid! One question, where are the extra attacks on 6s coming from for the D.C.?

[Blindhamster]

the priest

[Damon Nightman]

I thought that was only corbulo?

[Bartali]

 

 

The infernus is almost a necessity now because of the damage output.

 

Don't think the Infernus is worth having, the range and the points cost kills it. Plasma Pistol far better, half the points and you can shoot it after a Jump Pack Assault.

[Morticon]

Have you considered adding Primaris in your lists yet?

I'm somewhat considering helblasters and the jump packed ones.

Ive been looking at them, vahouth - to be perfectly frank, i think they're useless. The intercessors specifically. The inceptors, not bad with T5, but still...not good enough on account of lack of weapon options.  

The hellblasters clock in at 190 for 5, T4, W2 - most heavy weapons will wreck them.  They have no way to be transported either.  

 

Nah,  i'm not sure what GW has planned with them.  But they wont be in my list anytime soon. 

 

 

 

 

The infernus is almost a necessity now because of the damage output.

 

Don't think the Infernus is worth having, the range and the points cost kills it. Plasma Pistol far better, half the points and you can shoot it after a Jump Pack Assault.

 

Im iffy about the range- but i think the 2d6 is going to be very necessary. 

 

I think the list looks solid! One question, where are the extra attacks on 6s coming from for the D.C.?

Yup! my bad- confused Astoraths stuff with Corbs!!! May look at Corbs too, tbh.  I like his reroll for narthecium.  Just slow. 

[Bartali]

 

 

Im iffy about the range- but i think the 2d6 is going to be very necessary.

 

I just can't see when you're going to get to shoot them ? You're likely not to be in range to shoot it before charging, and by the time you're able to shoot it in Assault you've either blown through the unit of they've fallen back.

 

If they where 10pts or less, I'd so go for it. But with Plasma being 12" and half the cost you're more likely to shoot them, and cheap enough to keep them for situational use.

 

Shame really as I'd like to use Infernus as it's one of the things that differentiates us from Vanilla.

[vahouth]

Yeah, not being able to transport the Primaris is a bummer, but on the other hand, 30" plasma rifles man...I don't know. 

I plan to use them this weekend and see how it goes.

 

I agree about the intercessors though, the seem completely useless.

[NTaW]

Corbs and Mephy with Terminators in a Land Raider seems like a party waiting to happen. I haven't yet dug into the points values for things though it seems like most infantry got less expensive while vehicles got more expensive. This option was ~7/800 points. Rules aside, any different now?

[redshadow]

you cant shoot from rhino's anymore :(

[Morticon]

you cant shoot from rhino's anymore

 

if this is true, i'm changing the list O_o

[Morticon]

Corbs and Mephy with Terminators in a Land Raider seems like a party waiting to happen. I haven't yet dug into the points values for things though it seems like most infantry got less expensive while vehicles got more expensive. This option was ~7/800 points. Rules aside, any different now?

Corbs+ Meph + 6 hammernators in a Crusader  =  

 

94

145

336 (claws are 12points cheaper per model)

287 

________

862

 

 

 

 

[Spagunk]

 

Corbs and Mephy with Terminators in a Land Raider seems like a party waiting to happen. I haven't yet dug into the points values for things though it seems like most infantry got less expensive while vehicles got more expensive. This option was ~7/800 points. Rules aside, any different now?

Corbs+ Meph + 6 hammernators in a Crusader  =  

 

94

145

336 (claws are 12points cheaper per model)

287 

________

862

 

Ouch.

[Arkhanist]

 

you cant shoot from rhino's anymore

 

if this is true, i'm changing the list O_o

 

 

AFAICT, there are no general rules for shooting from transports any more. Only if the transport specifically mentions its possible (ala starweaver and DE raider, of the top of my head, which are both open topped). On the plus side, metal boxes are more robust now, and you can disembark before it moves, then advance and charge. Also, you can charge the transport first, which assuming it survives overwatch, prevents that unit from overwatching your now disembarked unit. 

 

Bear in mind, AA units seem to get a +1 to hit against flying units. Counters the -1 to hit on aircraft - but also works on jump infantry. SM stalkers look like they're going to be absolutely brutal against say, sanguinary guard - heavy 6, 2+ to hit, S7, -1AP, 2D for a 124pt predator-equiv chassis. 

 

I dunno, it just seems BA have been hit hard with the nerf stick (i.e. high points or low effectiveness or both) in comparison to vanilla. Given I'm working on repainting a good chunk of my BA stuff anyway (some old paint jobs, I've been a BA collector for 25 odd years), I'm seriously tempted to just give up and just use the boxset primaris to start a *spit* ultramarines army, combine with all the cool toys they get we don't, what older mini marines I have that aren't BA-bits branded, and top off with superboy girlyman. Then I could have a small ally force of death company, libby dread if I really missed my BA.

 

It's just, so much of the stuff I'm thinking of running - armoured tacs, termis, JP vet meltas or droppod devs get no BA-specific buffs at all (bar heavy flamer, but I can live with that)

Edited June 1, 2017 by Arkhanist

[NTaW]

 

 

Corbs and Mephy with Terminators in a Land Raider seems like a party waiting to happen. I haven't yet dug into the points values for things though it seems like most infantry got less expensive while vehicles got more expensive. This option was ~7/800 points. Rules aside, any different now?

Corbs+ Meph + 6 hammernators in a Crusader =

 

94

145

336 (claws are 12points cheaper per model)

287

________

862

 

 

 

So just a bit more expensive depending on loadout but, from the looks of it on paper, more effective on the table. Thanks for providing the answer :tu:

 

Interesting twist about transports and not being able to shoot out of them without specific stipulation. I feel as though it's countered by Rhinos becoming much more durable and also the subtle boost to their shooting with dual storm bolters, plus the occupant's ability to get out and fully function and the vehicle's newfound ability to soak overwatch on a charge. Wonder if we'll see more Razorbacks as a result, though it's impossible to actually know how everything works without playing games with the full rules.

Edited June 1, 2017 by NTaW