8th List, points discussion and considerations.

[Charlo]

Librarian dreads are hilarious, unable to be shot while not the closest. I'm a fan and maybe I'll find a way to use both in my lists now.

 

Still salty about Pods however.

 

Deep Striking a few DC squads with Lemartes & Astorath still seem one of the best things we can do to start collapsing the enemy battleline while the rest of the army moves up. DC are in a weird place but hey, they're cheap - just a shame their fluff is a little butchered because of it.

 

Bringing a detachment of a vanilla captain and some Cataphractii/ Tartaros gives us a nice unit that can operate by itself with plenty of re-rolls and good dakka, even if not specifically DA.

[Fidelius Animo]

So questions:

Are predators really an upgrade over Razorbacks?

 

I mean if you're not taking many troops, I suppose it seems odd to get a designated Transport but since I've been away from the game for almost 10 years, why am I not taking two assault cannon Razorbacks for 182 pounds points instead of one Baal predator for 162?

 

For 20 more points you get 12 assault cannon shots vs 6 hb shots, 9 wounds (since Baal is 11) but lose overcharged engines (which seem rather disappointing when equipped with Assault Cannons).

Edited June 6, 2017 by Fidelius Animo

[durdle-durdle]

So questions:

Are predators really an upgrade over Razorbacks?

 

I mean if you're not taking many troops, I suppose it seems odd to get a designated Transport but since I've been away from the game for almost 10 years, why am I not taking two assault cannon Razorbacks for 182 pounds points instead of one Baal predator for 162?

 

For 20 more points you get 12 assault cannon shots vs 6 hb shots, 9 wounds (since Baal is 11) but lose overcharged engines (which seem rather disappointing when equipped with Assault Cannons).

Yeah, I said the same thing a few pages ago on one of these posts. Baal predators are overcosted at the moment, and it's unfortunate. If they got back their ability to scout or outflank or something I might be interested in paying a premium for them. As is, it's too much.

[Fidelius Animo]

You know there is some real synergy to be had from a few primaris lieutenants, they can even have power swords to be vaguely useful in a more traditional BA army. But rerolls of 1s to wound is nothing to sniff at when it's both melee and shooting!

Quite right!

 

Especially with scouts who often need 5/6s to wound.

[Bartali]

So questions:

Are predators really an upgrade over Razorbacks?

 

I mean if you're not taking many troops, I suppose it seems odd to get a designated Transport but since I've been away from the game for almost 10 years, why am I not taking two assault cannon Razorbacks for 182 pounds points instead of one Baal predator for 162?

 

For 20 more points you get 12 assault cannon shots vs 6 hb shots, 9 wounds (since Baal is 11) but lose overcharged engines (which seem rather disappointing when equipped with Assault Cannons).

 

Your pointing is slightly off there, a Razorback with Twin AC is 100pts. Point is still valid though - a Baal Pred with just a Twin AC is 142pts. The 42 extra points gets you an extra wound and overcharged engines whilst loosing transport capacity from the Razor.

 

Seems a no brainer to run Razors instead of Baals, with the added bonus that Razors don't take any FOC slots. Say you're taking the 3-6 elites detachment which would normally limit you to 0-2 HS slots. Not a problem, just take Razors instead (up to the limit of the number of units in your army) if you want mech.

[Morticon]

Im finding huge, huge point inconsistencies and oversights everywhere. 


Dante for example.  The pred example, the Sang Guard.  Its like theyve used 7th ed points as their anchor, and havent factored what everyone else is doing.  

Dante for his cost (and rules), is one of the worst chapter masters.  Draigo who is 25 points more is monstrously better.  Azrael and Logan also miles better.  



I dont buy into vindictive nerfing (Hanlon's Razor and all), I just honestly believe whomever has been helming the BA for the last 5 years or so have been complete numpties.  

[Fidelius Animo]

 

So questions:

Are predators really an upgrade over Razorbacks?

 

I mean if you're not taking many troops, I suppose it seems odd to get a designated Transport but since I've been away from the game for almost 10 years, why am I not taking two assault cannon Razorbacks for 182 pounds points instead of one Baal predator for 162?

 

For 20 more points you get 12 assault cannon shots vs 6 hb shots, 9 wounds (since Baal is 11) but lose overcharged engines (which seem rather disappointing when equipped with Assault Cannons).

 

Your pointing is slightly off there, a Razorback with Twin AC is 100pts. Point is still valid though - a Baal Pred with just a Twin AC is 142pts. The 42 extra points gets you an extra wound and overcharged engines whilst loosing transport capacity from the Razor.

 

Seems a no brainer to run Razors instead of Baals, with the added bonus that Razors don't take any FOC slots. Say you're taking the 3-6 elites detachment which would normally limit you to 0-2 HS slots. Not a problem, just take Razors instead (up to the limit of the number of units in your army) if you want mech.

 

 

good catch

 

ive been dropping small things like that in this new edition.

 

this time it was because i used the points for Assault Cannon instead of Twin Assault Cannon.

[Charlo]

Im finding huge, huge point inconsistencies and oversights everywhere. 

 

 

Dante for example.  The pred example, the Sang Guard.  Its like theyve used 7th ed points as their anchor, and havent factored what everyone else is doing.  

 

Dante for his cost (and rules), is one of the worst chapter masters.  Draigo who is 25 points more is monstrously better.  Azrael and Logan also miles better.  

 

 

I dont buy into vindictive nerfing (Hanlon's Razor and all), I just honestly believe whomever has been helming the BA for the last 5 years or so have been complete numpties.  

 

Gamesworkshops argument would be "internal balance" for points and how they shouldn't be compared across books but of course there is that mindset, there has to be.

 

Looking at Dante though compared to the others, he still feels pretty rad - he has a very powerful pistol to shoot in combat, is the only one who flies and the Axe Mortalis is a nice execution weapon - he's also the fastest of the lot with his 12" move.

 

He definitely needs some bonus to command points or whatever though, as that was his whole hallmark of 7th - getting two GOOD warlord traits.

 

Lol @ Draigo though, that sword is stupid as is his buffs.

[redshadow]

In most cases Dante will always be going first in combat, re-rolling hits and wounds against other characters Edited June 6, 2017 by redshadow

[Captain_Krash]

You can still put Dreadnoughts in drop pods. The forgeworld book/update is going to have updated rules for them. So that is still going to be a thing and the dreadnought drop pods are boss. I was sweating when they dropped the model but excited that there updating there rules for 8th.

 

Krash

[durdle-durdle]

 

 

Im finding huge, huge point inconsistencies and oversights everywhere.

 

 

Dante for example. The pred example, the Sang Guard. Its like theyve used 7th ed points as their anchor, and havent factored what everyone else is doing.

 

Dante for his cost (and rules), is one of the worst chapter masters. Draigo who is 25 points more is monstrously better. Azrael and Logan also miles better.

 

 

I dont buy into vindictive nerfing (Hanlon's Razor and all), I just honestly believe whomever has been helming the BA for the last 5 years or so have been complete numpties.

Gamesworkshops argument would be "internal balance" for points and how they shouldn't be compared across books but of course there is that mindset, there has to be.

 

Looking at Dante though compared to the others, he still feels pretty rad - he has a very powerful pistol to shoot in combat, is the only one who flies and the Axe Mortalis is a nice execution weapon - he's also the fastest of the lot with his 12" move.

 

He definitely needs some bonus to command points or whatever though, as that was his whole hallmark of 7th - getting two GOOD warlord traits.

 

Lol @ Draigo though, that sword is stupid as is his buffs.

Go stare at shrike then stare at Dante. Dante is like 60 or so points more if I remember correctly, and I'd 100% rather take a blood angels version of shrike. He's a slightly more righty chapter master, but pays out the nose for it.

[Charlo]

Yeah I forgot to mention Shirke  . Especially with his "re-roll charges" aura, which is so so powerful when you suddenly land him with a load of Vanguard or the like.

[Morticon]

Come to think of it ....Dante is actually the only master model that doesn't have his own bubble rule - everyone else has a "big rule" -  Dante's closest is a -1 ld to models in 3" - a product of his wargear.  

It would be angering if it wasn't so disheartening :/ 

[Spagunk]

GW succeeds in casting a great Khornite spell to invoke the Black Rage across the entire chapter...

[Charlo]

Come to think of it ....Dante is actually the only master model that doesn't have his own bubble rule - everyone else has a "big rule" -  Dante's closest is a -1 ld to models in 3" - a product of his wargear.  

 

It would be angering if it wasn't so disheartening :/ 

 

Nail on the head. No doubt -1 is a strong ability - but it's nowhere near interesting or unique. Hell his Death Mask is no better than any other SG's one, even though it is supposed to be the best one.

 

The stats and weapons are there, but he could have really done with something like a hit & run aura (fallback and still be allowed to charge) and some command point bonuses.

 

Imagine if Dante's whole shtick was allowing BA units within 6/12" to fallback from combat, then as most of them will be FLY they can shoot and then because of Dante charge again. The synergy there with our special pistols is nice (though yeah, we could've shot them again in combat anyway...) but it means we get to strike first once more.

[vahouth]

Come to think of it ....Dante is actually the only master model that doesn't have his own bubble rule - everyone else has a "big rule" -  Dante's closest is a -1 ld to models in 3" - a product of his wargear.  

 

It would be angering if it wasn't so disheartening :/ 

What grinds my gears the most is that most, is that he is not a Master Tactician while others are. 

Since when???

[Damon Nightman]

I am probably starting to sound like a broken record here, but we gotta bring this stuff up as much as possible (in a nice and constructive manner) when they get the community feedback forum thing up and running...

 

I've heard from my FLGS manager that all codices should drop by Christmas (no idea if that's true). I would imagine they are already working on ours and have all the special rules and "flavor" worked out to a degree, but at the very least we can get point costs adjusted...

[durdle-durdle]

While we're on the subject... seth's warlord gimmick if a unit attacking again on a roll of a 6 kind of sucks.

 

Edit: which is very disappointing. I agonised over whether or not I wanted flesh tearers and decided in the end to do blood angels because flesh tearers don't have terminator shoulders and I'd have to buy a ton of them for normal marines too. I feel like it could've been like "on a 4+ one unit attacks again" or "on a 6 for each unit in 6/12" or even a stratagem like "2cp: a unit of flesh tearers may pile in and fight twice." He just seems to keep getting shoddy rules though.

Edited June 6, 2017 by durdle-durdle

[Cap'm Heckus]

So what are we thinking for assault squad builds?

 

• 10 man - 2x plasma pistol, sgt with Power axe?

• multiple 5 mans - same set as above?

 

Flamers seem less exciting since we won't be in range on the deep strike and pistols no longer scorch a guy unless you wanna risk it. Outside of turn 1 however, 2 Flamers is 2d6 autohitting S4 hits. Maybe go MSU with a mix of squads?

 

I was thinking power axe on the Sarge as it seems a nice mid-range weapon but he could take a plasma pistol as well I suppose. Hell, a thunder hammer even seems reasonable under the current rules.

 

Thoughts?

[dakkamasta]

I like the msu 5 man unit with 2 flamers, combi-flamer. Good amount of roasting potential right there. Could also work in a rhino since 2 squads can share one.

 

As much as I wanted to make assault marines a proper choppy unit again, theyre still outshined by DC, SG and VV. Now they're only use is as a mobile cheap flamer unit.

 

I really like company vets, 4 meltas/plasmas and a combi with storm shields is very tasty for jump assault. I like the idea of sang guard dropping in with a priest spamming plasma, with company vets dropping with meltas and preventing any snipers or psychic stuff from killing the priest, provided he is the warlord.

[submarinesoup]

Any consensus on equipment for DC?

 

For a 10-man DC squad I'm looking at jump packs and 5x plasma pistols with a power axe or 2 for good measure. The plasma takes them up to 250ish points, which almost feels like too much to spend on one unit. I am tempted to keep bolt pistols rather than plasma and spend those points elsewhere.

 

Which leads to another question: is the plasma worth the investment on a unit that will usually be a priority target?

Edited June 6, 2017 by submarinesoup

[Morticon]

No consensus yet. And some good arguments for and against pistols at the moment- so worth having a look and a play to see what works in your meta. 

I think one or two plasma is a decent idea.  

FYI, though, I've been leaning towards Shield Vanguard over DC. The point difference is only +3 with the VV.  And with the way armour mods work now, I'm of the opinion SS are the way forward. That 6+ ignore wound is near useless -especially if we get hit with multiwound weapons, I mean, how often do you roll 2 or 3 sixes at a time <_< 
Id rather have 1x 3++. 

Sad to say, but they dropped the ball with the DC. 

[Xeranis]

I'm relatively new and don't have a lot of understanding re: the best units, but why are people seemingly opting for VV now?

 

If I was interpreting 7th correctly, VV were too expensive compared to our other options in that role. What has made them more attractive now?

[Spagunk]

I'm relatively new and don't have a lot of understanding re: the best units, but why are people seemingly opting for VV now?

 

If I was interpreting 7th correctly, VV were too expensive compared to our other options in that role. What has made them more attractive now?

 

It was specifically a nerf to Death Company.

 

In 7th edition, you got a 5+ feel no pain check against anything that wasn't instant death. Additionally you got fearless, rage, furious charge and red thirst (+1 initiative). We no longer get rage or furious charge. Furthermore we only have a 6+ FNP check which makes a significant difference. Coupled with the fact that we didn't get that much of a discount means that DC are seriously in trouble of being usurped by more effective units.

 

Van Vets is also an assault unit that benefits greatly from increased survival due to storm shields. They don't cost much more than DC so that is why people are starting to consider VanVets.

[Charlo]

I just looked at Wulfen and now I'm very sad.

 

They literally do everything.

• Fast? Average 8-13" move as they can advance AND THEN a re-rollable charge allowed too.
• Tanky? 2W, Storm Shields available and a 5+ FNP
• Output? Base S5, all of their weapons are strong and models get to fight again if they die.
• Synergy? Space Wolves within 6" can re-roll charges, or if they're already in combat get an extra attack.