8th List, points discussion and considerations.

[Orpheus Black Blood]

Yes, it's sad. Compare them to the Death company. At least DC are cheaper. Edited June 7, 2017 by Orpheus Black Blood

[Charlo]

It feels like Black Rage, as a rule, was made with balancing the Dread and characters in mind instead of the main focus, the DC themselves.

[ChapelXIII]

<p>

 

I just looked at Wulfen and now I'm very sad.

 

They literally do everything.

• Fast? Average 8-13" move as they can advance AND THEN a re-rollable charge allowed too.
• Tanky? 2W, Storm Shields available and a 5+ FNP
• Output? Base S5, all of their weapons are strong and models get to fight again if they die.
• Synergy? Space Wolves within 6" can re-roll charges, or if they're already in combat get an extra attack.

True enough, but aren't their points considerably higher now. I thought they were 37 pts a model now base.

[Bartali]

 

I just looked at Wulfen and now I'm very sad.

 

They literally do everything.

• Fast? Average 8-13" move as they can advance AND THEN a re-rollable charge allowed too.
• Tanky? 2W, Storm Shields available and a 5+ FNP
• Output? Base S5, all of their weapons are strong and models get to fight again if they die.
• Synergy? Space Wolves within 6" can re-roll charges, or if they're already in combat get an extra attack.

 

 

I'm quite confident of being able to deal with Wulfen (and SW in general) a lot better than I could in 7th. BA should be alpha striking them via shooting and possibly charging via Jump Pack assault units.

 

Dropping a Sang Guard squad in, shooting them with Overcharged Plasma, then charging (with a CP re-roll) makes me feel a lot happier being able to deal with them than I could before

Edited June 7, 2017 by Bartali

[Karhedron]

I've heard from my FLGS manager that all codices should drop by Christmas (no idea if that's true). I would imagine they are already working on ours and have all the special rules and "flavor" worked out to a degree, but at the very least we can get point costs adjusted...

Based on the rate at which they have been releasing AoS Battle Tomes, I seriously doubt they will have them all out by Christmas. In fact I would say they will probably only have the Primaris and Plague Marine ones out by then.

 

A great many AoS armies are still playing with their basic Warscrolls after nearly 2 years and some that have received Battle Tomes have only had parts of their army done (Flesh Eater Courts). GW are not going to be giving too much attention to old armies. The Index books make them playable but the bulk of their effort will go on totally new stuff like the Primaris.

[Bartali]

GW have got a long way to go for flesh out the Primaris line for transports, tanks, flyers, terminators etc etc That totally aren't replacing the regular marine line (honest).

[TheHarrower]

 

It feels like Black Rage, as a rule, was made with balancing the Dread and characters in mind instead of the main focus, the DC themselves.

 

Who knows? Seems like our list was written on a wing and a prayer. Hopefully it gets fixed soon.

 

The funny thing is RAW Death Company don't get Black Rage. The only keyword they have is "Infantry". That will need to be FAQ'd.

[NTaW]

^ you should take in their abilities, might see something you've missed.

[Paikis]

 

The funny thing is RAW Death Company don't get Black Rage. The only keyword they have is "Infantry". That will need to be FAQ'd.

 

 

Uhh, Death Company have Black Rage on their cards. Both with and without jump packs as well as Dreadnaughts. The rule simply states:

 

"You can add 1 to this unit's attacks characteristic in the Fight phase if it charged in the preceding Charge phase. In addition, roll a d6 each timne this unit loses a wound. On a roll of 6 the damage is ignored."

[TheHarrower]

 

 

The funny thing is RAW Death Company don't get Black Rage. The only keyword they have is "Infantry". That will need to be FAQ'd.

 

 

Uhh, Death Company have Black Rage on their cards. Both with and without jump packs as well as Dreadnaughts. The rule simply states:

 

"You can add 1 to this unit's attacks characteristic in the Fight phase if it charged in the preceding Charge phase. In addition, roll a d6 each timne this unit loses a wound. On a roll of 6 the damage is ignored."

 

 

Ah, okay. My bad. Don't have my Index with me. Last night I noticed they didn't have the Death Company keyword. Didn't realize it was listed under the unit.

[cerberus_]

Drop the fist on the DC marines and take thunder hammers. For whatever reason they priced fists and hammers the same for noncharacters. Thunder hammer gives you the same stats for the same price, but guaranteed 3 wounds on each hit as opposed to the fist's D3.

 

Sure, you lose your bolt pistol, but that's not gonna help you vaporize MCs and vehicles before they wreck you, and neither is the fist's random damage.

Edited June 10, 2017 by cerberus_

[Charlo]

 

I've heard from my FLGS manager that all codices should drop by Christmas (no idea if that's true). I would imagine they are already working on ours and have all the special rules and "flavor" worked out to a degree, but at the very least we can get point costs adjusted...

Based on the rate at which they have been releasing AoS Battle Tomes, I seriously doubt they will have them all out by Christmas. In fact I would say they will probably only have the Primaris and Plague Marine ones out by then.

 

A great many AoS armies are still playing with their basic Warscrolls after nearly 2 years and some that have received Battle Tomes have only had parts of their army done (Flesh Eater Courts). GW are not going to be giving too much attention to old armies. The Index books make them playable but the bulk of their effort will go on totally new stuff like the Primaris.

Codexes are coming "thick and fast" as per the Devs at Warhammer fest. Heard first hand from me. They said we won't have to wait long.

 

They said the first full draft of them all was completed and had been being playtested.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Charlo

[Calistarius]

 

 

I've heard from my FLGS manager that all codices should drop by Christmas (no idea if that's true). I would imagine they are already working on ours and have all the special rules and "flavor" worked out to a degree, but at the very least we can get point costs adjusted...

Based on the rate at which they have been releasing AoS Battle Tomes, I seriously doubt they will have them all out by Christmas. In fact I would say they will probably only have the Primaris and Plague Marine ones out by then.

 

A great many AoS armies are still playing with their basic Warscrolls after nearly 2 years and some that have received Battle Tomes have only had parts of their army done (Flesh Eater Courts). GW are not going to be giving too much attention to old armies. The Index books make them playable but the bulk of their effort will go on totally new stuff like the Primaris.

Codexes are coming "thick and fast" as per the Devs at Warhammer fest. Heard first hand from me. They said we won't have to wait long.

 

They said the first full draft of them all was completed and had been being playtested.

 

That's awesome news.  I'll keep my fingers crossed their at the same price point.

[Paikis]

Drop the fist on the DC marines and take thunder hammers. For whatever reason they priced fists and hammers the same for noncharacters. Thunder hammer gives you the same stats for the same price, but guaranteed 3 wounds on each hit as opposed to the fist's D3.

 

Sure, you lose your bolt pistol, but that's not gonna help you vaporize MCs and vehicles before they wreck you, and neither is the fist's random damage.

 

That's probably why the points cost is the same. You're trading a pistol shot and a random d3 which averages to 2w, for no pistol shot and a garuanteed 3.

[cerberus_]

I guess it could be argued that the fist allows for a more generalist unit, with that extra shooting attack while charging or locked in close combat. However, I find it hard to believe that that bolt pistol shot will make any difference in DC mowing down an infantry unit, and it certainly won't be hurting MCs. On the other hand, rolling a 1 for damage on a power fist wound could very much mean the difference between killing and being killed by a vehicle or MC.

 

Let's say you always get two bolt pistol shots off; one in the shooting before charging, and one shot during your next shooting phase while locked in close combat. Now let's say that your PF always does 2 damage on a successful wound. Would you trade those two shots for an extra damage on a wound? Now throw in the fact that you don't always get 2 damage on the PF and you won't always get 2 shots from the bolt pistol. The choice seems pretty one sided.

 

Imo you should almost always take consistency over potential output. Especially when the "benefit" of sacrificing that consistency is for, potentially, a couple of bolt pistol shots.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

 

Have you considered adding Primaris in your lists yet?

I'm somewhat considering helblasters and the jump packed ones.

Ive been looking at them, vahouth - to be perfectly frank, i think they're useless. The intercessors specifically. The inceptors, not bad with T5, but still...not good enough on account of lack of weapon options.

The hellblasters clock in at 190 for 5, T4, W2 - most heavy weapons will wreck them. They have no way to be transported either.

 

Nah, i'm not sure what GW has planned with them. But they wont be in my list anytime soon.

[/quote name=Morticon" post="4765953" timestamp="1496326651]

 

Now this is where I will disagree. I have tried the Hellblasters. In conjunction with any Captain and the Lieutenant, they are savage, especially in conjunction with the transport tank. They, along with the tank, are the only Primaris units I do not consider sub-par at the current point.

[Morticon]

Gonna have to engage on this one, Immer, and share some counter thoughts. 

Are you suggesting that a 5man squad of 190 points is worth it.....because you can make them better by adding a 300 point model along with two 100 point models?

I don't know bruv, I dont think it's smart play to throw good money after bad.  Or in this case, more points to try fix what's not worth fixing.

That tank is great. But, its a landraider-lite. 

And the guys?  A wound from an autocannon means your 28point model dies on a 4+ - same as a regular marine.  
The same goes for  any other major heavy weapon.  

For 40 points more, you can get 10 Sternguard, with 5 combi plas - who will last far, far longer. Same amount of wounds, but because they're individual models, will have a much better rate of attrition. 

 

For 16 points more you can get 10 Devs with 2 Grav cannons and 2 HBs - with a better damage output over longer period of time.

I think GW have balanced these guys looking at multiwound models taking damage from a single wound source.  Because its not how people build their armies, I think this is a large case of the ball being dropped. 

Have you played against an Sisters exorcist? d6 shots, that hit these guys on 3s, wound on 2s with no save, and an average of 1 dead primaris a wound.  
What about ork lootas? 11 lootas for the same cost - and any wound kills one :/ I just cant justify using these guys :( 

 

I have the same problem with the Sang Guard, to be honest. Termies too.  
 

Again, this sounds overly bleak and grumpy, but i promise you it's not a knee-jerk.  
I've been a loyal GW and BA supporter for years - I was also of the opinion the core rules of 7th (cumbersome as they were) were the best  GW had done, and it was the codicies and rules in them that broke the game, or made them convoluted - but I was hoping that 8th would bring about a solid, intelligent balance both to our army and the game. It hasn't happened. 
 

I rate first few weeks into official release, you're going to see a marine backlash like never before....or a quiet fizzle as people just lose interest being overrun by armies they can do little to nothing about.  

But, that being said, I'm ever the trooper, so will be here looking for ways to fight the good fight....much like Dante on Baal....before GW comes in and hopefully pulls a Kahbanda on the rules. 

[Andrés Pacheco]

DC get deep strike, and are much more flexible in their load out than Zerks. Zerks will eat T4 all day long, but don't have reliable delivery or any high strength/damage options. 10 DC with hammers will smash the face off a massive tank, whereas Zerks will barely scratch it, even with both their fight phase actions.

 

Throw a priest and Lemartes in there too, and they just seem crazy good. They could conceivably destroy a Lord of Skulls in one phase, not too shabby. 20 Zerks trying the same thing (they must have been facing the wrong way :)) will take 2+ turns, and probably would be destroyed before they managed it. If they even made it to combat footslogging.

[meniscusmike]

@morticon, I think you being too hung up on what 8th ed isn't. You yourself had said you expected an improved 7th but expectations did not match reality and it's fine to be bummed out by that. I think that for a lot of people (at least initially) need to get over the hump that it's a completely brand new game and stop comparing it to 7th. Once people get out of that mindset (even sub consciously) they might enjoy the game more, or at least give it a fair chance.

I see this a lot when a lot of people emigrated to kings of war when fantasy died, a lot of people struggled initially because they were playing like they would in fantasy but once they got there head around it being a new game they started to enjoy it much more and kings of war hasn't looked back since

Edited June 11, 2017 by meniscusmike

[Calistarius]

Gonna have to engage on this one, Immer, and share some counter thoughts. 

 

Are you suggesting that a 5man squad of 190 points is worth it.....because you can make them better by adding a 300 point model along with two 100 point models?

 

I don't know bruv, I dont think it's smart play to throw good money after bad.  Or in this case, more points to try fix what's not worth fixing.

 

That tank is great. But, its a landraider-lite. 

 

And the guys?  A wound from an autocannon means your 28point model dies on a 4+ - same as a regular marine.  

The same goes for  any other major heavy weapon.  

 

For 40 points more, you can get 10 Sternguard, with 5 combi plas - who will last far, far longer. Same amount of wounds, but because they're individual models, will have a much better rate of attrition. 

 

For 16 points more you can get 10 Devs with 2 Grav cannons and 2 HBs - with a better damage output over longer period of time.

 

I think GW have balanced these guys looking at multiwound models taking damage from a single wound source.  Because its not how people build their armies, I think this is a large case of the ball being dropped. 

 

Have you played against an Sisters exorcist? d6 shots, that hit these guys on 3s, wound on 2s with no save, and an average of 1 dead primaris a wound.  

What about ork lootas? 11 lootas for the same cost - and any wound kills one :/ I just cant justify using these guys

 

I have the same problem with the Sang Guard, to be honest. Termies too.  

 

Again, this sounds overly bleak and grumpy, but i promise you it's not a knee-jerk.  

I've been a loyal GW and BA supporter for years - I was also of the opinion the core rules of 7th (cumbersome as they were) were the best  GW had done, and it was the codicies and rules in them that broke the game, or made them convoluted - but I was hoping that 8th would bring about a solid, intelligent balance both to our army and the game. It hasn't happened. 

 

I rate first few weeks into official release, you're going to see a marine backlash like never before....or a quiet fizzle as people just lose interest being overrun by armies they can do little to nothing about.  

 

But, that being said, I'm ever the trooper, so will be here looking for ways to fight the good fight....much like Dante on Baal....before GW comes in and hopefully pulls a Kahbanda on the rules. 

 

I was with you Mort.  For the first few days after the leaks I couldn't even stomach looking at them.  That feeling has faded though, and I'm just excited to play something different.  I know there is a lot of whiffed potential here with the Primaris marines, but I can't help but feel like each squad will have a specific role.  Much like everything in 8th.  They may not be auto-includes like some things, but if you're needing to tailor your list for something specific they could help.  For example, the Plasma Incinerator is one of our only options for AP -4 (outside of melta).  It has a 30" range and can rapid fire within 15".  If you're facing a heavy 3+ standard list then that -4 becomes invaluable.  Especially with all the different types of FNP that seems to be floating around in this edition.  Just some food for thought buddy.  I don't think it will be as bad as we're initially feeling.  From the batreps I've watched/read I don't for see there being a plethora of "take-all-comers" lists out there.

[durdle-durdle]

I think hellblasters are like 36 ppm once you include the gun, right? Company vets with plasma guns and jump packs are 32 ppm, except you can put them precisely where you want them, and they can move faster each turn after. Not as survivable with a lower toughness and wounds, but imo their flexibility in tactical situations far exceeds the hellblasters who have to footslog it. Maybe if they could take pods and the pods were cheaper I'd consider hellblasters more, but they're a static unit at the moment. They want to sit in a ruin and wait for their enemy to come to them at the moment.

[Calistarius]

I think hellblasters are like 36 ppm once you include the gun, right? Company vets with plasma guns and jump packs are 32 ppm, except you can put them precisely where you want them, and they can move faster each turn after. Not as survivable with a lower toughness and wounds, but imo their flexibility in tactical situations far exceeds the hellblasters who have to footslog it. Maybe if they could take pods and the pods were cheaper I'd consider hellblasters more, but they're a static unit at the moment. They want to sit in a ruin and wait for their enemy to come to them at the moment.

Sitting in wait isn't always a bad thing.  Especially, given the 30" range over 24" and the AP -4 over AP -3 of the regular plasma gun.  I guess it just depends on your playstyle though, but I'm not going to spend the actual money on Company Vets to put plasma guns on them when these are better.

 

Edit: I'm not 100% familiar with our Index yet, but I'm not even seeing the option to give Company Vets jump packs.  Correct me if this is wrong, please.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Calistarius

[durdle-durdle]

The company vets entry for our list of units we can take has a "1" footnote next to it. If you read that footnote it says "may take jump packs", and is again in our list of available units in the end of the index.

 

I'm just taking the jump assault marines with ccw's and bolt pistols I never used and changing their arms to carry plasma guns.

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Morty - They aren't best in slot, sure. But they are not trash tier as the current iteration of Intercessors are. That is what I am saying.

[Charlo]

@ Morty - They aren't best in slot, sure. But they are not trash tier as the current iteration of Intercessors are. That is what I am saying.

 

Plus they look very cool and can take advantage of being stationed in ruins for +2 to cover save after a turn.

 

I think for BA with so much of our stuff being deployed far forward they'll have a little more breathing room too.