8th List, points discussion and considerations.

[Calistarius]

The company vets entry for our list of units we can take has a "1" footnote next to it. If you read that footnote it says "may take jump packs", and is again in our list of available units in the end of the index.

I'm just taking the jump assault marines with ccw's and bolt pistols I never used and changing their arms to carry plasma guns.

Ah, fair enough. I didn't do enough flipping between pages of images.

[Morticon]

 

"

@morticon, I think you being too hung up on what 8th ed isn't. You yourself had said you expected an improved 7th but expectations did not match reality and it's fine to be bummed out by that. I think that for a lot of people (at least initially) need to get over the hump that it's a completely brand new game and stop comparing it to 7th. Once people get out of that mindset (even sub consciously) they might enjoy the game more, or at least give it a fair chance. 

I see this a lot when a lot of people emigrated to kings of war when fantasy died, a lot of people struggled initially because they were playing like they would in fantasy but once they got there head around it being a new game they started to enjoy it much more and kings of war hasn't looked back since

[Calistarius]

Well said Mort. At the end of the day it's about having fun and enjoying the game. I know winning helps that tremendously. That being said, we are still in the embryonic stage of 8th. I think DC will find their stride. It may not be what we all hoped for, but it could be worse. I'll still be using an average of 20 DC in each game ;)

[Arkhanist]

Zerkers are scary in melee. However, they're no tougher than tac marines to shooting. We've seen how easily DC and SG can go down to shooting if they're exposed, and zerkers have no invulnerable, FNP, or 2+ and only 1 wound. Assbacks, plasma and other crowd-control shooting will kill them off. Bubble wrap important targets with scouts/tacs, fall back any survivors then shoot them off the board.

 

BA aren't a top tier melee army - this isn't 5th edition. Nids and orks now are better melee armies, as is a khorne heavy army. What they don't have is our flexibility. I think I'm going to be concentrating on mobile firepower for now, rather than outright melee, deathstar style.

 

For example, I'm thinking of trying a dev squad with heavy flamers in a razorback. Bikes. Jump vets with melta and plasma. Whirlwinds. shooty dreads. Stormraven. las preds. Where I am going to have a melee component, they're not just going to be racing up the board to fight alone, I'll be using them to hit incoming threats or grab objectives. Probably VV with storm shields. I might give SG a go, with a librarian to try and give them 4++, or TH/SS termies in the stormraven with an aura character or two.

 

The codex might make us a beatstick army again, but it also might not.

[Bartali]

Theoryhammer as my first game of 8th is at the weekend.

 

I don't think DC are weak in comparison to Khorne Beserkers, or that Vanguard Vets are a better choice for BA.

 

What matters most is getting the charge, blowing through your opponent in one turn and trying to tag other units into combat. BA's access to jump packs and deep strike, as well as vehicles, make it easier for DC to get the charge over Khorne Berserkers. Whilst they don't possess the raw combat ability of the Berserkers, DC have more than enough to get the job done on their favoured targets.

Who will win between DC and Berserkers ? Whoever gets the charge.

 

Re Vanguard Vets - taking them because they're more durable misses the point. DC and VV are all T4 3+(++), and will die in protracted combats or if they're focused fired on. You want to spend the points on getting them into combat, getting the job done in the turn they charge and supporting them so they don't suicide off.

DC are much easier to get the charge with over VV thanks to the must take Lemartes.

[Shaezus]

Theoryhammer as my first game of 8th is at the weekend.

 

I don't think DC are weak in comparison to Khorne Beserkers, or that Vanguard Vets are a better choice for BA.

 

What matters most is getting the charge, blowing through your opponent in one turn and trying to tag other units into combat. BA's access to jump packs and deep strike, as well as vehicles, make it easier for DC to get the charge over Khorne Berserkers. Whilst they don't possess the raw combat ability of the Berserkers, DC have more than enough to get the job done on their favoured targets.

Who will win between DC and Berserkers ? Whoever gets the charge.

 

Re Vanguard Vets - taking them because they're more durable misses the point. DC and VV are all T4 3+(++), and will die in protracted combats or if they're focused fired on. You want to spend the points on getting them into combat, getting the job done in the turn they charge and supporting them so they don't suicide off.

DC are much easier to get the charge with over VV thanks to the must take Lemartes.

I'm seeing it like this too. Then there's Astorath's special rule which gives DC the only example of Fearless I've come across yet in 8th. Put Corbs in the mix - and the bigger the unit, the greater the returns - and the combined effect goes way beyond the points value of the models.

[submarinesoup]

How are you equipping your DC for maximum effect?

 

I'm tempted to put a unit of 5 with jump packs and thunder hammers into a land raider.

 

Yes it's 100 points for the hammers alone, but I am looking at DC as a fire and forget unit. I want to max their damage output from 1 combat phase as I feel they will be lackluster in protracted fights. The packs and raider will help ensure they make it into combat and if the LR can't soften the target it's probably time to buy some new dice.

Edited June 13, 2017 by submarinesoup

[Morticon]

Theoryhammer as my first game of 8th is at the weekend.

 

I don't think DC are weak in comparison to Khorne Beserkers, or that Vanguard Vets are a better choice for BA.

 

What matters most is getting the charge, blowing through your opponent in one turn and trying to tag other units into combat. BA's access to jump packs and deep strike, as well as vehicles, make it easier for DC to get the charge over Khorne Berserkers. Whilst they don't possess the raw combat ability of the Berserkers, DC have more than enough to get the job done on their favoured targets.

Who will win between DC and Berserkers ? Whoever gets the charge.

 

Re Vanguard Vets - taking them because they're more durable misses the point. DC and VV are all T4 3+(++), and will die in protracted combats or if they're focused fired on. You want to spend the points on getting them into combat, getting the job done in the turn they charge and supporting them so they don't suicide off.

DC are much easier to get the charge with over VV thanks to the must take Lemartes.

Comparing DC in a fight *with* Zerkers is not good "theory hammer" - and it misses the point. It's not about whether or not these units can kill each other. 

 

It's what they can kill in comparison to each other, the efficiency with which they do it, and the points required to do so.  

 

Too many people are suggesting ways to make an average assault unit, better.  While this is GREAT from a tactica perspective- as knowing all the options is a necessity and will become needed as BA players look for options- it misses the point somewhat when not comparing our combat viability to other comparable units - which is what i was doing.  

 

Throwing in an additional 120 points to make their charges more reliable, (when you're better off with a Rhino so you dont take incoming fire) is not a good thing.  Neither is relying on Corbulo as a basis of argument.  Also, suggesting that they all have hammers or powerweapons is great, but also raises their costs.  All of these suggestions make the DC workable, even strong!!  But, again, it misses the point. 

 

It's what co,parable unis of ours can kill in comparison to others, the efficiency with which they do it, and the points required to do so.  

Zerks have access to rhinos - and theyre FAR more reliable than jump packs- considering that now you can assault out of them - and get an addition 4" from the disembark. Add to this that the zerks are rerolling charges all the time....

 

People are suggesting the following: 

 

1: Use JPs.

2: Use more special weapons

3: Deepstrike

4: With the help of Lemartes, get your 9" charge

5: After you've gotten the enemy out of their Rhino

 

That's far too much.  

 

FYI, a bare 10 man of DC with JP, with the charge will do a whopping great 5 unsaved wounds. Obviously, the more PWs you put in, the better.  

To equal the damage output of zerks on T4, 3+, you're looking at investing

 

200+Fist+4PWs = 236.

 

To secure the charge you're looking at 123 extra. 

 

How are you equipping your DC for maximum effect?

 

 

 I'm trying to keep costs down. I'll use 2 PW and 1Hammer/Fist.  But, I wont be using them anymore.  Armour mods are too devastating for marines.  I dont need a glass cannon, I need a rock.  

 

10 DC with JP, 2PW+1fist = 228

10 VanVet with JP, 2PW+1fist  + 4 Stormshields =  228

 

(Id take the shields anyday - though, id prefer a rhino transport!) 

 

 

 

For information sake, i'm currently looking at this:

 

Astorath

Corbulo

Primaris Lieut

 

Dread - Las/Auto

Dread - Las/Auto

Dread - Las/Auto

8x VanVet - Hammer, 2PW, 5Shields, MB, JP

8x VanVet - Hammer, 2PW, 4Shields

Rhino

 

5x Scouts - Rifles

10x Scouts - shotties/CCW combo, Fist

5x Tac - Cmbi-Plas, Hvy Flmr

5x Tac - Cmbi-Plas, Hvy Flmr

Razor - TLAC

Razor - TLAC

 

8x Dev - 2HB, GravCan, Lascan

Edited June 13, 2017 by Morticon

[Jorre]

I think I'll spend my free time getting the core models for my army ready. DC/Sang Guard/Vanguard and our other unique stuff could well change when the codex drop they could be good they could be bad. I'm going to get a couple razorbacks a cyclone missile launcher and a landraider ready. These things shouldnt change much while we wait for the Dex's to drop which will hopefully be soon!

[Morticon]

I think I'll spend my free time getting the core models for my army ready.

 

 

I think that's super smart.

[ThatOneMarshal]

So here's a bit of a stupid question but how would you go about making a list built on speed? We lost our overcharged engines meaning that we are as fast as everyone else. Do we have anything else going for us? It seems like we aren't all that great in Assault so it seems we are back the focus on shooting then supplement with Melee.

[Morticon]

So here's a bit of a stupid question but how would you go about making a list built on speed? We lost our overcharged engines meaning that we are as fast as everyone else. Do we have anything else going for us? It seems like we aren't all that great in Assault so it seems we are back the focus on shooting then supplement with Melee.

Bikes are crazy fast.  

Jump packs are decent, especially if coupled with Rhinos so they can take cover.  

Mounting up seems like the way forward. 

 

But yes, we're still firmly in "shooty-counter" in terms of efficiency:points ratio

[Charlo]

Blood Rodeo returns!

 

Bikes have always been powerful, now they are even more so in this edition methinks. They've always been total winners in the times I've fielded them.

 

For now I think it's best to focus on a good core of fast, shooty units that can also take a hit and then spread those shooting buffs around to make the most of our powerful heavy weapons.

 

Probably best to keep Shooting to Assault Units ratio at 2:1 or even 3:1 in lists and even then the assault role could simply be a dreadnought in the back with a fist and TL gun.

 

Sniper Scouts seem like a must as well, if anything just to edge out those 6s for Mortal Wounds on the enemy general.

 

I'm Lamenting the DC a lot, but in reality they were always an outlier in past editions. Hopefully the Codex will sort them out. I'm still a fan of the idea of 2-3 squads of DC with Lemartes and/ or Astorath dropping down on an exposed flank to try and edge some clutch charges out and collapse the enemy in one point.

 

Considering the Dakka, resilience & transport capacity too, I can see my storm ravens getting a lot of action this edition - may even change up the build on the second one I need to finish instead of going for the default twin AC & MM. Twin Lascannon and Typhoon seems solid for chunking wounds from big targets. Being able to put a Dread and 12 normal models or 6 jump packers where you want them from turn 2 is great. The risk if it's destroyed is a worry, losing any model on a 1 - but command points can stop that :P

[Calistarius]

Considering the Dakka, resilience & transport capacity too, I can see my storm ravens getting a lot of action this edition - may even change up the build on the second one I need to finish instead of going for the default twin AC & MM. Twin Lascannon and Typhoon seems solid for chunking wounds from big targets. Being able to put a Dread and 12 normal models or 6 jump packers where you want them from turn 2 is great. The risk if it's destroyed is a worry, losing any model on a 1 - but command points can stop that

I can't agree with this enough.  After the handful of games I've watched...this thing will be included in just about all of my games now.  Just the shear volume of shots alone is worth the cost, imo.  Combine that with the deadly cargo, your enemy can't ignore this thing, but it is also pretty durable.  I expect after BA turn one there will be a knee jerk reaction to deal with the flying cargo container, which could open up nice landing spots for Jump Pack Assault.

[Arkhanist]

I'm thinking of getting some land speeder tornados. Heavy flamers seem pretty brutal for overwatch (to discourage chargers), and the 2nd weapon is flexible; asscan or 2nd heavy flamer for horde control, MM for mobile MC/vehicle hunting.

 

Scouts with bolters or shotguns and their deployment option seem pretty nice as a cheap 1st turn deep-strike denying screen.

 

DC still seem to have a place as horde killers - that +1A is pretty cheap; orks and nids are going to take getting used to with their buffs - a handful of super-expensive guys isn't going to cut it I think, you need lots of basic firepower (and melee) to cut down the genestealers and gaunt swarms.

[TheHarrower]

Even the FLG folks are boasting about how great Blood Angels are if you throw a ton of points at special characters in the new Faction Focus. I tend to agree with Mort though. Throwing points at a unit doesn't solve a problem. Adding Astorath, Sanguinor, and a Priest will make any unit survivable, but how much does all that cost? Also, thematically it seems odd. Like every battle we're in all our characters show up. I hope they change this philosophy by the time our Codex comes around.

[Spagunk]

Since I don't yet have access to the index, what do lightning claws look like again? I just want to know if my vanguard vet plan (claws & pistols + stormshields) are going to be okay or if I have to change it up to fists/hammers.

[Calistarius]

Even the FLG folks are boasting about how great Blood Angels are if you throw a ton of points at special characters in the new Faction Focus. I tend to agree with Mort though. Throwing points at a unit doesn't solve a problem. Adding Astorath, Sanguinor, and a Priest will make any unit survivable, but how much does all that cost? Also, thematically it seems odd. Like every battle we're in all our characters show up. I hope they change this philosophy by the time our Codex comes around.

I just read the new Faction Focus as well.  It seems like that was the main design focus for us.  "Let's see...I think we should require them to pay for 3+ characters if they want their staple to perform as expected."  We definitely seem like a guinea pig for this aura synergy method.  If we want to focus on our customary jump melee infantry we need strong character support.  I'm not necessarily complaining about this though.. Our characters have always been one of my favorite aspects of our chapter.  They're at the forefront of many campaigns and novels, but I would like the option​ of taking them for buffs, and be a little less handcuffed to them.

[TheHarrower]

 

Even the FLG folks are boasting about how great Blood Angels are if you throw a ton of points at special characters in the new Faction Focus. I tend to agree with Mort though. Throwing points at a unit doesn't solve a problem. Adding Astorath, Sanguinor, and a Priest will make any unit survivable, but how much does all that cost? Also, thematically it seems odd. Like every battle we're in all our characters show up. I hope they change this philosophy by the time our Codex comes around.

I just read the new Faction Focus as well.  It seems like that was the main design focus for us.  "Let's see...I think we should require them to pay for 3+ characters if they want their staple to perform as expected."  We definitely seem like a guinea pig for this aura synergy method.  If we want to focus on our customary jump melee infantry we need strong character support.  I'm not necessarily complaining about this though.. Our characters have always been one of my favorite aspects of our chapter.  They're at the forefront of many campaigns and novels, but I would like the option​ of taking them for buffs, and be a little less handcuffed to them.

 

 

I agree 100%. Love all our characters and we have always been character heavy. If they want us to keep using them I wish they would be a bit more flexible. Give Meph and Corbs options for jump packs. But yeah, being able to play without including everyone would be nice.

[DarkProdigy]

Certainly not great for those who play successors as well. Most can claim to just be blood angels but i play flesh tearers, so I'm explicitly barred from taking the rest of the names folks if i want to bring Seth, and while i wasn't really planning to do much with that I have had to scrap my custom counts as astorath and I feel like the sanguinor should be allowed.

[TheHarrower]

Certainly not great for those who play successors as well. Most can claim to just be blood angels but i play flesh tearers, so I'm explicitly barred from taking the rest of the names folks if i want to bring Seth, and while i wasn't really planning to do much with that I have had to scrap my custom counts as astorath and I feel like the sanguinor should be allowed.

 

Ugh. Never thought of that. Sorry man. That really sucks.

 

On a different not, I'm not sure if anyone saw this online army builder. Check it out. Had points and everything. Works really well.

[the jeske]

I have been thinking. bodies are everything in 8th. Now BAs can take some bling units, with most of them not being very point efficient But what if the BA army was made mostly out of scouts [melee, maybe with some snipers] and units dedicted to kill multi wound stuff[rifleman dreads for example].

 

Scouts+RAS + dreads, With maybe some grav devs. I know it would lack the BA feel[aside for maybe a librarian], but it could work. Maybe one could even add some screening troops [cheap spread IG to push away alfa strikers from the fire base for example].

[Calistarius]

I have been thinking. bodies are everything in 8th. Now BAs can take some bling units, with most of them not being very point efficient But what if the BA army was made mostly out of scouts [melee, maybe with some snipers] and units dedicted to kill multi wound stuff[rifleman dreads for example].

 

Scouts+RAS + dreads, With maybe some grav devs. I know it would lack the BA feel[aside for maybe a librarian], but it could work. Maybe one could even add some screening troops [cheap spread IG to push away alfa strikers from the fire base for example].

I think this would be heavily dependent on your meta, as with all lists.  If you're like me, and 60% of your community plays Space Wolves...I would advise against taking an army laden with melee scouts.  Against my usual TWC and Wulfen heavy opponents I have found that quality of bodies out weighs quantity any day, and from what I've seen from 8th (in regards to both armies) that hasn't changed.

 

If you're like me and haven't been able to play a game of 8th yet, I really suggest, to everyone, watching a few reputable battle reports if you haven't done so yet.  There are a handful of BA specific out there that are pretty good.  Baring the mistakes here and there, they really give you a feel as to what could​ work. 

[Crimson Ghost IX]

I am of a similiar mind with Jeske. It's all theory at this point tho.

 

I am painting up a mess of shotgun scouts to try and dictate the frontline and perhaps draw the enemy forward for my troops.

I THINK they are better than CQC scouts, but time and testing will bear that out. Snipers to keep enemy heads down is also a try real hard to include in addition to the shotguns (plus obj control and zone of control against deepstrike on my side of the LZ).

 

Rifleman dreads appeal certainly, but I am gonna try Shotgun Dreads marching to the guns to start if any.

(Boom Sticks intimidate, draw fire, and clear the LZ =).

 

Libby dread putting out the 4++ shield is very good I think but it is a pricey consideration.

 

I am looking at speeders for many different things. especially Multimelta and heavy flammer. Devs with pod or rhino are perhaps best with MM I think currently because of line of sight and all that, although Gravcannon is also sexy.

 

I think a Baal Pred with flamestorm advancing and using the flammendoffer will draw lots of attention and grab real estate. Unsure on using heavy flamer sponsons still as I think the points could be used better elsewhere.

 

I am also thinking an IG supplement... but to hold the backline instead with mortar teams and try to set up large areas where enemy deepstrike won't happen. These are cheap so I can afford more BA bling. Plus I have the models. These also provide some needed anti-horde (for orks, nids, krootsies, conscripts etc). Whatever other cheapies I buy for that detachment will fill holes in the anti deepstrike screen that my head says will be critically important.

 

Season all that to taste with all the very excellent BA jump troops and chars (which I feel are excellent and talked about elsewhere here anyhow).

 

I will build my list planning to go second. Let my enemy develop then give give him the backhand blow Von Mannstein style. Saturate him with targets and then run them down. Controlling reserves is so freaking HUGE for Blood Angels and our army has the extra tools for making the job a good one.

 

DC does serious work still. I like VV and SG also, but DC are cheap, mobile and terrify my enemies so they are going in.

 

Assault troops are kinda nuetered I think without meltaguns, but more importantly the others didnt get them.

They will likely still do lots of work charging guns to eat overwatch and importantly screen my drop forces on arrival. Charging and not being charged is the way to victory.

 

I am thinking inferno pistols are very useful on jump troops (after the drop turn) and are kinda one of our neatest toys if maybe a few points too pricey.

 

Jump move = FLY is so HUGE in 8th I am thinking that alone makes BA great. (Besides having the best models and fluff =). Gonna leave this fight to the dread that just crashed in and get downtown with remaining forces for some pistoling *nod.

 

My 8th ideas revolve around controlling where the enemy goes and hit them with overwhelming forces to my best advantage (remember to try and control the board with cheap stuffs) and then use jump mobility to dictate the fight and react as needed. I think my favorite army has all the best tools and is gonna be saweet in 8th. 

 

The cup is still over half full even in these dark times brothers =)

Edited June 14, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Morticon]

With how scouts work/deploy now, they're also very, very strong.   If you're getting first turn, it means you're also getting first turn charges.  
You can maybe maximise with a corbulo/priest pod and even another character with a jump pack.  

130 points means you're getting a hammer and 10 bodies, with 18x S5 attacks and 2x S10. Not tooooo shabby.