8th List, points discussion and considerations.

[the jeske]

 

I have been thinking. bodies are everything in 8th. Now BAs can take some bling units, with most of them not being very point efficient But what if the BA army was made mostly out of scouts [melee, maybe with some snipers] and units dedicted to kill multi wound stuff[rifleman dreads for example].

 

Scouts+RAS + dreads, With maybe some grav devs. I know it would lack the BA feel[aside for maybe a librarian], but it could work. Maybe one could even add some screening troops [cheap spread IG to push away alfa strikers from the fire base for example].

I think this would be heavily dependent on your meta, as with all lists.  If you're like me, and 60% of your community plays Space Wolves...I would advise against taking an army laden with melee scouts.  Against my usual TWC and Wulfen heavy opponents I have found that quality of bodies out weighs quantity any day, and from what I've seen from 8th (in regards to both armies) that hasn't changed.

 

If you're like me and haven't been able to play a game of 8th yet, I really suggest, to everyone, watching a few reputable battle reports if you haven't done so yet.  There are a handful of BA specific out there that are pretty good.  Baring the mistakes here and there, they really give you a feel as to what could​ work. 

 

your not going to stop a SW army[which imo is going to run more BC and GH and maybe 1-2 "elite" type unit in 8th] with BA shoting. Bodies with 1 wound are just more efficient in 8th, then multi wounds or higher T. The more bodies the better, you can drawn people in. they run over your initial line of Scouts? great. now those unit that assaulted are eating fire from your support section and get charged by your RAS that were in the second line [and can be further away from the scout to avoid being consolidated in to]. heck you can even have 3 line. shoty scouts, melee scouts and RAS with venguard/terminators being used to hunt support units in the back field. Keep stuff cheap, keep stuff numerous and it will work. well maybe not as good as orcs, but it will be fine. Plus BA were for a long time a high skill army.

[Blindhamster]

I wonder if power levels may become the preferred method of play, it does feel like they're generally better balanced than points...

[Arkhanist]

 

I am also thinking an IG supplement... but to hold the backline instead with mortar teams and try to set up large areas where enemy deepstrike won't happen. These are cheap so I can afford more BA bling. Plus I have the models. These also provide some needed anti-horde (for orks, nids, krootsies, conscripts etc). Whatever other cheapies I buy for that detachment will fill holes in the anti deepstrike screen that my head says will be critically important.

 

 

I'm considering IG scout sentinels; 45 points per with multilaser for backfield, or even more tempting 52 points for a heavy flamer with a 9" scout move before 1st turn. Move it up to block 1st turn deepstrikes in front of your line, behind a building to block LOS if you can. Cheaper than a basic 5 man scout squad, tougher, more wounds. Heavy flamer negates low BS, autohit on overwatch means it's not quite so toothless against chargers, and is so cheap that you're happy if it's taking AT shots that might have gone on your rhinos, stormraven or razorbacks.

[Thoridon]

I wonder if power levels may become the preferred method of play, it does feel like they're generally better balanced than points...

 

I'll probably be playing some power level games as it makes things much faster to put together. Obviously if you know a game is coming in advance you can sit down and have time to think through the points options but if you just decide "hey, let's have a game this afternoon" you can spend more time putting lists together than actually playing.

 

Power levels might favour some armies more than others, but as long as both sides have roughly similar upgrades spread amongst units it shouldn't be too far off. What you don't want is one side with all basic models and the other with TH/SS on everything possible.

 

I'll have to sit down with some example army lists from previous games and see how they'd look both in new 8th point values and the power level system.

[Charlo]

I wonder if power levels may become the preferred method of play, it does feel like they're generally better balanced than points...

 

Until you realize for the same power level I could either bring some DC with a few special weapons... OR

 

An entire unit of DC all with Powerfists and Inferno Pistols   

[Blindhamster]

If you have that as WYSIWYG... more power to you...

[Calistarius]

 

 

I have been thinking. bodies are everything in 8th. Now BAs can take some bling units, with most of them not being very point efficient But what if the BA army was made mostly out of scouts [melee, maybe with some snipers] and units dedicted to kill multi wound stuff[rifleman dreads for example].

 

Scouts+RAS + dreads, With maybe some grav devs. I know it would lack the BA feel[aside for maybe a librarian], but it could work. Maybe one could even add some screening troops [cheap spread IG to push away alfa strikers from the fire base for example].

I think this would be heavily dependent on your meta, as with all lists.  If you're like me, and 60% of your community plays Space Wolves...I would advise against taking an army laden with melee scouts.  Against my usual TWC and Wulfen heavy opponents I have found that quality of bodies out weighs quantity any day, and from what I've seen from 8th (in regards to both armies) that hasn't changed.

 

If you're like me and haven't been able to play a game of 8th yet, I really suggest, to everyone, watching a few reputable battle reports if you haven't done so yet.  There are a handful of BA specific out there that are pretty good.  Baring the mistakes here and there, they really give you a feel as to what could​ work. 

 

your not going to stop a SW army[which imo is going to run more BC and GH and maybe 1-2 "elite" type unit in 8th] with BA shoting. Bodies with 1 wound are just more efficient in 8th, then multi wounds or higher T. The more bodies the better, you can drawn people in. they run over your initial line of Scouts? great. now those unit that assaulted are eating fire from your support section and get charged by your RAS that were in the second line [and can be further away from the scout to avoid being consolidated in to]. heck you can even have 3 line. shoty scouts, melee scouts and RAS with venguard/terminators being used to hunt support units in the back field. Keep stuff cheap, keep stuff numerous and it will work. well maybe not as good as orcs, but it will be fine. Plus BA were for a long time a high skill army.

 

Definitely no argument here.  I've thought that BA have required a lot of skill to use effectively since the start of 6th.  I think we can all agree that all leading up to 5th was just aiming yourself in the right direction lol.  However, I'm not convinced that melee scouts are going our golden ticket.  Especially when we have units better equipped for melee.  I'm all for using them as a front line defense, but I won't be using them as the meat of my force.  Just my opinions bud.  Besides, if I wanted to play a horde style army I wouldn't have bought all these fancy marines with jump packs haha. 

 

My first few games with 8th will more than likely be played with power levels.  This is fine with me because I've magnetized all of my capable units, so I could take 5+ fists at any time in my DC.  My lists will likely rely on a good amount of Jump Pack Assault with air support from a Raven.  I'll have scout snipers and tac squads for objectives.  Razorbacks and Preds will harass and split my opponents attention.  I'm just going to use what I've got, and not redesign my entire force based on some theories, until I get my feet wet.

[Xenith]

 

 

I wonder if power levels may become the preferred method of play, it does feel like they're generally better balanced than points...

Until you realize for the same power level I could either bring some DC with a few special weapons... OR

 

An entire unit of DC all with Powerfists and Inferno Pistols

That's already factored into the DC's power cost. Compare their power 9 with similar units.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

 

 

I am also thinking an IG supplement... but to hold the backline instead with mortar teams and try to set up large areas where enemy deepstrike won't happen. These are cheap so I can afford more BA bling. Plus I have the models. These also provide some needed anti-horde (for orks, nids, krootsies, conscripts etc). Whatever other cheapies I buy for that detachment will fill holes in the anti deepstrike screen that my head says will be critically important.

 

 

I'm considering IG scout sentinels; 45 points per with multilaser for backfield, or even more tempting 52 points for a heavy flamer with a 9" scout move before 1st turn. Move it up to block 1st turn deepstrikes in front of your line, behind a building to block LOS if you can. Cheaper than a basic 5 man scout squad, tougher, more wounds. Heavy flamer negates low BS, autohit on overwatch means it's not quite so toothless against chargers, and is so cheap that you're happy if it's taking AT shots that might have gone on your rhinos, stormraven or razorbacks.

 

I like sentinels also; very much. However I think we have lots of ways to get our flame on already so I might look at other weapons myself. Hide and then pop out later seems useful for sure anyway.

 

The thing with mortars is they do not need line of sight and can just hide and support from the rear without getting shot off the table. While also most critically making/extending large areas the enemy cannot create an LZ and enter the board at. Because the teams are likely hiding the enemy is going to have to cross the table giving me intercept opportunity if they want to come to grips with them. I fight Tau alot and want to cut down places for them to visit my toys on entry to the fight. I also fight nids alot so double whammy on eating gaunt swarms etc. I am not advocating spamming them tho, but rather saying mortars being cheap in pts for what I want. They do the job and let me field more jump troops for general operations.

 

This is my theory for an army I am planning =) Perhaps just sticking with BA forces (moar snipers, devs, vehicles) will work out more cost effective when considering the other buy ins for a guard detachment etc. We shall see. I like it for a go at the planning to go 2nd strategy I am considering anyhow.

 

However, I might actually want the enemy to put fire and troops to my backline for target saturation on my drop turn so pop out units are good also. Causing him to divide his perhaps expensive forces is gravy too. Hmmmm. 8th is going to be sooo cool =)

 

Turn 1 drop; should a player decide to do so, is a BIG thing now for units other than drop pods. I am still leaning towards turn 2 or 3 (or after their coming in and killing the units of my choice) so I can eat their lunch. Nice to have options and the decision itself to make. Rolling for reserves sucked and this control makes the game so much more fun to play IMO.

 

As an important aside. Clearing/keeping the LZ for our flyboys is important... So I am back to scouts in no mans land dictating the line of battle without getting shot off the table before the lightning arrives. 5xshotgun is 55pts (My group thinks the power levels are broken with the depth of our bits boxes). Maybe upgrade sgt with a combi-melta here and there, but probably just 5 shotguns do the fronline job. Every camo cloak skipped helps marines get their wings n stuff =)

[Sawtooth]

With detachments allowing so much flexibility, I find myself too tempted to take pricey things. In a 2000 point game, how many models do you all think is a good place to be? I feel like every list I tinker with is undermanned and I'm trying to get a picture of how others are doing it?

[CrimsonExarch]

I ran this list against an ork army today and basically tabled him by the end of turn 4. Corbulo is broken with death company. Rules as written, his buff is insane. He single-handedly gave one squad of DC an additional 64 attacks on the turn they charged into combat. That's bonkers..... 
Also, storm ravens are great with this loadout and Baal preds have performed every game i've used them in.

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by CrimsonExarch

[Calistarius]

That's awesome Crimson.  I'm glad you've found early success.  It's also good to hear Corbulo provides such needed support!  This looks a lot like something like I will field, minus one Raven and add JPs to one of those DC squads...and throw on some SG for JPA shenanigans.  Well done though!

[Brother_Angelus]

I ran this list against an ork army today and basically tabled him by the end of turn 4. Corbulo is broken with death company. Rules as written, his buff is insane. He single-handedly gave one squad of DC an additional 64 attacks on the turn they charged into combat. That's bonkers.....

I don't think that's possible? Corbs triggers on a 6+ to hit, and the additional attack can't trigger it again.

 

So at most you're getting 7 extra attacks from your chainswords and 1 more from your hammer, depending on which (or potentially both) of those weapons trigger his ability. Unless i'm missing something?

Edited June 16, 2017 by Brother_Angelus

[CrimsonExarch]

 

I ran this list against an ork army today and basically tabled him by the end of turn 4. Corbulo is broken with death company. Rules as written, his buff is insane. He single-handedly gave one squad of DC an additional 64 attacks on the turn they charged into combat. That's bonkers.....

I don't think that's possible? Corbs triggers on a 6+ to hit, and the additional attack can't trigger it again.

 

So at most you're getting 7 extra attacks from your chainswords and 1 more from your hammer, depending on which (or potentially both) of those weapons trigger his ability. Unless i'm missing something?

 

 

The wording is "Each time you make a hit roll of 6+ in the fight phase". I rolled eight 6's when i charged with one of the squads. I didnt even need to roll those 64 extra attacks but THEY wouldn't then generate additional attacks if I were to have rolled them. 

 

As a point, the one thunderhammer could have solo-killed a knight with the amaount of damage he put out. Worth noting guys

Edited June 16, 2017 by CrimsonExarch

[Brother_Angelus]

It's triggered by a Unit hitting on a 6+, not each attack or each model.

[DarkProdigy]

I'm not understanding the math. 8 6s would mean you get 8 extra individual swings total with no new ones after. Did you think each 6 generates a whole new set of attacks?

[CrimsonExarch]

It's triggered by a Unit hitting on a 6+, not each attack or each model.

 

Yeah, so any member of that unit that rolls a 6 to hit triggers it. The fact it has stated UNIT means that it encompasses all the models IN that unit. It also says "weapons", the plural, reinforcing that more than one model will be making the additional attacks.

 

 

I'm not understanding the math. 8 6s would mean you get 8 extra individual swings total with no new ones after. Did you think each 6 generates a whole new set of attacks?

 

It says the unit gets to attack again with the same weapons. Eight 6's means that each model in the unit ( 8 dudes) gets to make another attack. 8x8= 64.

Those additional attacks would then NOT be able to generate more attacks.

Edited June 16, 2017 by CrimsonExarch

[submarinesoup]

 

 

I ran this list against an ork army today and basically tabled him by the end of turn 4. Corbulo is broken with death company. Rules as written, his buff is insane. He single-handedly gave one squad of DC an additional 64 attacks on the turn they charged into combat. That's bonkers.....

I don't think that's possible? Corbs triggers on a 6+ to hit, and the additional attack can't trigger it again.

 

So at most you're getting 7 extra attacks from your chainswords and 1 more from your hammer, depending on which (or potentially both) of those weapons trigger his ability. Unless i'm missing something?

 

 

The wording is "Each time you make a hit roll of 6+ in the fight phase". I rolled eight 6's when i charged with one of the squads. I didnt even need to roll those 64 extra attacks but THEY wouldn't then generate additional attacks if I were to have rolled them. 

 

As a point, the one thunderhammer could have solo-killed a knight with the amaount of damage he put out. Worth noting guys

 

 

I too missed the word "unit" in Corbulo's rules and am in awe

 

I'm thinking the word "unit" is being misinterpreted to mean the entire unit when it's referring to a single model. Hit rolls for a friendly "unit " refers to a single model. Corbs would be broken any other way.

 

 

 

It's triggered by a Unit hitting on a 6+, not each attack or each model.

 

Yeah, so any member of that unit that rolls a 6 to hit triggers it. The fact it has stated UNIT means that it encompasses all the models IN that unit. It also says "weapons", the plural, reinforcing that more than one model will be making the additional attacks.

 

 

I'm not understanding the math. 8 6s would mean you get 8 extra individual swings total with no new ones after. Did you think each 6 generates a whole new set of attacks?

 

It says the unit gets to attack again with the same weapons. Eight 6's means that each model in the unit ( 8 dudes) gets to make another attack. 8x8= 64.

Those additional attacks would then NOT be able to generate more attacks.

 

 

Ok. now I see where the math is coming from. Each one makes an additional attack rather than an additional fight phase per model. I wanted this to be true so so much...

Edited June 16, 2017 by submarinesoup

[tychobi]

Calm down folks.  It says "make a close combat attack".  That means 1.  Not a full round of hand to hand attacks.  attack.   So one for each model in the unit that rolled a 6.  

[CrimsonExarch]

 

 

 

I ran this list against an ork army today and basically tabled him by the end of turn 4. Corbulo is broken with death company. Rules as written, his buff is insane. He single-handedly gave one squad of DC an additional 64 attacks on the turn they charged into combat. That's bonkers.....

I don't think that's possible? Corbs triggers on a 6+ to hit, and the additional attack can't trigger it again.

 

So at most you're getting 7 extra attacks from your chainswords and 1 more from your hammer, depending on which (or potentially both) of those weapons trigger his ability. Unless i'm missing something?

 

 

The wording is "Each time you make a hit roll of 6+ in the fight phase". I rolled eight 6's when i charged with one of the squads. I didnt even need to roll those 64 extra attacks but THEY wouldn't then generate additional attacks if I were to have rolled them. 

 

As a point, the one thunderhammer could have solo-killed a knight with the amaount of damage he put out. Worth noting guys

 

 

I too missed the word "unit" in Corbulo's rules and am in awe

 

 

It is LEGIT. THIS is how we are MEANT to be playing. 

My one thudnerhammer guy got 4 attacks on the charge (with unleash rage) and then had an additional 8 attacks to make, rerolling to hit and rerolling 1s to wound. He could SOLO an imperial knight quite easily in that instance.

[Brother_Angelus]

It is LEGIT. THIS is how we are MEANT to be playing. 

My one thudnerhammer guy got 4 attacks on the charge (with unleash rage) and then had an additional 8 attacks to make, rerolling to hit and rerolling 1s to wound. He could SOLO an imperial knight quite easily in that instance.

It's not legit, you're interpreting the rule incorrectly. You get a single extra attack per guy if anyone in the unit rolls a 6+ to hit. That's it.

 

It's good, but it's not the insanity you posted above.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Brother_Angelus

[CrimsonExarch]

 

It is LEGIT. THIS is how we are MEANT to be playing. 

My one thudnerhammer guy got 4 attacks on the charge (with unleash rage) and then had an additional 8 attacks to make, rerolling to hit and rerolling 1s to wound. He could SOLO an imperial knight quite easily in that instance.

It's not legit, you're interpreting the rule incorrectly. You get a single extra attack per guy if anyone in the unit rolls a 6+ to hit. That's it.

 

It's good, but it's not the insanity you posted above

 

I could just as easily say that you are interpreting the rule incorrectly too. I've broken it down, rule as written. If the UNIT gets to make one additional attack then that encompasses all the models in that UNIT.

[DarkProdigy]

I don't think it's that either, I read it as each 6+ generates another hit attempt, somewhat similar to necron tesla or seths old whirlwind (weapon rule) but they don't auto hit. The "using the same weapons" clause just indicates that each new roll must be rolled with the same weapon that each 6 came from, no turning a chain sword hit into a power sword, etc.

 

The "unit" just means that Corbulo has to be within 6" of that unit to apply the buff, but not necessarily 6" from all the swinging models.

 

One last thing, the -1 to hit on thunder hammers and power fists means those weapons won't be benefiting from this rule without some sort of hit buff in play, your 6s are all actually 5s.

[CrimsonExarch]

I don't think it's that either, I read it as each 6+ generates another hit attempt, somewhat similar to necron tesla or seths old whirlwind (weapon rule) but they don't auto hit. The "using the same weapons" clause just indicates that each new roll must be rolled with the same weapon that each 6 came from, no turning a chain sword hit into a power sword, etc.

 

The "unit" just means that Corbulo has to be within 6" of that unit to apply the buff, but not necessarily 6" from all the swinging models.

 

One last thing, the -1 to hit on thunder hammers and power fists means those weapons won't be benefiting from this rule without some sort of hit buff in play, your 6s are all actually 5s.

 

Im glad I didnt count them. I only used the 6's generated from the chainswords. The boy squad got slaughtered form that alone.

[Brother_Angelus]

 

 

It is LEGIT. THIS is how we are MEANT to be playing. 

My one thudnerhammer guy got 4 attacks on the charge (with unleash rage) and then had an additional 8 attacks to make, rerolling to hit and rerolling 1s to wound. He could SOLO an imperial knight quite easily in that instance.

It's not legit, you're interpreting the rule incorrectly. You get a single extra attack per guy if anyone in the unit rolls a 6+ to hit. That's it.

 

It's good, but it's not the insanity you posted above

 

I could just as easily say that you are interpreting the rule incorrectly too. I've broken it down, rule as written. If the UNIT gets to make one additional attack then that encompasses all the models in that UNIT.

 

 A Sang priest costs 69pts. Corbs costs 94pts with an extra wound, an extra attack and a better chainsword. You think an ability that costs at most 15pts, would allow you to roll 64 extra attacks?

 

Alright.