8th List, points discussion and considerations.

[CrimsonExarch]

 

 

 

It is LEGIT. THIS is how we are MEANT to be playing. 

My one thudnerhammer guy got 4 attacks on the charge (with unleash rage) and then had an additional 8 attacks to make, rerolling to hit and rerolling 1s to wound. He could SOLO an imperial knight quite easily in that instance.

It's not legit, you're interpreting the rule incorrectly. You get a single extra attack per guy if anyone in the unit rolls a 6+ to hit. That's it.

 

It's good, but it's not the insanity you posted above

 

I could just as easily say that you are interpreting the rule incorrectly too. I've broken it down, rule as written. If the UNIT gets to make one additional attack then that encompasses all the models in that UNIT.

 

 A Sang priest costs 69pts. Corbs costs 94pts with an extra wound, an extra attack and a better chainsword. You think an ability that costs at most 15pts, would allow you to roll 64 extra attacks?

 

Alright.

 

 

Do you think a Baal pred with AC cannons and two HBs should cost 62 more points than a Razorback with ACs that costs 100?

Do you think Dante's point cost is fair in comparison to that of Marenus, Draigo or Abbaddon?

What about Khorne Berserkers costing the same amount as DC and they get to attack twice and get the additional movement of a free pile in too. All for just 17 points a model. 

 

The point of our Chapter this edition is to USE our special characters. The unique ones. They are pushing that heavily. This is just an indication of how far they are pushing for it. Other than providing that insane buff, he doesn't do much else and without a jump pack his mobility is limited, making him difficult to position unless you build around him. It is ENTIRELY plausible.

 

Blood Angels have had the worst end of the stick since 6th. This guy legitimately gives us some thing POWERFUL to be doing and the wording is very clear. Stop denying it and embrace it until we are told otherwise officially.

[Brother_Angelus]

*Comparisons*

Yeah, those things are about in the ballpark.

Transport capacity has a decent cost now, since they're more survivable.

Some leaders are marginally better or worse than others, but generally are in the same league of points cost to one another.

DC come with cheap weapon options and the option for jump packs. Zerkers are strong, but they have limitations.

 

Stop denying it and embrace it until we are told otherwise officially.

Nah, i'm good mate. I'll stick with the way that makes sense until confirmed otherwise. Edited June 16, 2017 by Brother_Angelus

[The Unseen]

Yeah Crimson, just no. If you tired to pull that bull:cuss anywhere near someone sane, you'd be getting kicked out. Your taking a moderately vague rule where the intent is clear, and making yourself "That Guy". Don't be that guy.

 

Every 6 you roll lets you make 1 additional attack with whatever weapon rolled the 6, not "lolz I get to attack with my entire unit cause 1 guy rolled a 6".

[Orpheus Black Blood]

Yeah Crimson, just no. If you tired to pull that bull:cuss anywhere near someone sane, you'd be getting kicked out. Your taking a moderately vague rule where the intent is clear, and making yourself "That Guy". Don't be that guy.

 

Every 6 you roll lets you make 1 additional attack with whatever weapon rolled the 6, not "lolz I get to attack with my entire unit cause 1 guy rolled a 6".

This is how i read it from the first time. Also there are similar rules that do the same in this and previous editions and no rule that lets you attack with your whole squad for every 6 one guy rolls, it doesn't make sense and would turn Corbulo into a broken unit (bad).

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Well it is a GRAIL...

 

Maybe it is THE GRAIL?

 

I think 1 attack per dude with a six is gonna be correct as even "the new GW" isn't that kind.

 

Otherwise... 

O...

M...

G...

 

Sounds perilous... Maybe a little bit of peril? Nah, tell them we already got one *nod.

[Silverson]

I originally read it that for each roll of 6+ you make an extra single attack roll with the same weapon that you swung with.

 

so with my 4 attacks,I roll 2 6's  and therefore roll 2 more dice using the same weapon profile as I used at the first set of rolls. (and this is how i will be playing it personally)

 

but the more I read it the more it says to me that for every roll of a six the entire unit gets an extra attack. and for me it all stems from the wording in the sentance "that unit may immediately make another close combat attack using the same weapons.

[Andrés Pacheco]

Now that Brother Corbulo's Grail of Doom issue has been cleared up, anyone critique the following?:

 

2 × melta/hurricane Ravens each with 10 shotgun scouts and a double flamer ironclad.

 

10 JP DC with hammers

 

Lemartes

 

Jump librarian

 

9-10 sniper scouts

 

Scouts as bodies....not sure :/

 

Ravens....good

 

Hammer DC....bye bye anything

 

Thoughts?

[Thoridon]

I think Hammer DC are going to be the ideal recipients for many of our buffs, being our highest damage output option as a unit, and I am definitely going to be running part of the combination you mentioned above.

 

Hammer DC: Great damage against multi-wound targets, worth losing the pistol vs a Fist.

Lemartes: Rerolling all melee misses is great for hammers, rerolling the charge gives tactical options.

Librarian: +1A is extra efficient on these weapons, and the 4++ save is almost like having a SS. Depending on rolls and opponent denying.

 

It's going to be an expensive group to run, so I'll probably add a couple of basic DC (or at most BP + PS) to take initial wounds, but it's going to pack a punch.

 

I'd be tempted to add a JP Priest for the +1S but that would only come into play against T8, so it'd depend on the enemy, and 3 characters following the DC would be a lot of eggs in 1 basket. I think I'd probably have the Priest follow a unit of SG, to give them the extra strength where it might give them a better wound roll more often (it would turn Axes into a 4+ wound roll vs T6, make Swords 3+ to wound vs T4).

 

As for DC delivery Lemartes does bring Deep Strike into play, but 9" isn't easy even with a reroll and a failed charge would be painful with hammers. I'd be more inclined to use their 12" move to jump nto position for a shorter charge the following turn, but we'll see!

[Morticon]

Guys, I wrote the following to try and counter and shut down Crimson....

 

 

Three things, 
1.  While rules mistakes are more often than not the result of poor player interpretation, there IS actually a poor wording issue here. 

2. While there is a poor wording issue, I believe Crimson is still playing it wrong. 


The rule is as follows:

"In addition, each time you make a hit roll of 6+ in the fight phase...., that unit may immediately make another close combat attack using the same weapons"


1.  The ambiguity/wording issue here is that "unit" is used to clarify *who* gets to make the attack - where the standard is "model". 

 

2.  Crimson now argues that "may immediately make another close combat attack" implies both *multiple attacks* and *all* attacks from that unit. 

Neither are supported by the wording.  The sentence is in singular form.  

The argument would be entirely based on the premise that "another close combat attack" means the same thing as "a unit fighting" - where in actual fact, the verbiage of close combat attacks is VERY clear - (Page 183, Section 5.5) 

THAT BEING SAID.....

 

BUT THEN....

I then went on to clarify where I thought he was getting confused, and explain the "actual" wording...... only to realise....that RAW, he is absolutely and 100% correct. 

He wasn't arguing that for each 6, you get your full compliment of attacks, just that for every 6, the whole unit gets an additional SINGLE extra attack. 

I 100% entirely believe this is a typo/error, and that the very very simple change from "unit" to model will be in the first FAQ - BUT, BUT,.......

EDIT:  Good points raised below- revised position
 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Morticon

[Morticon]

If you'd like to play rules lawyer against this (obvious) mistake - then you could argue that it only comes into effect when "units make hit rolls of 6+" - not models. 

 

SO, will only work for single model units.  (Since models make attacks, not units)

[Spagunk]

I wasn't going to chime in, but I thought I'd do so anyway.

 

I think Mort has it right. Rules as written it is worded to mean 1 extra CC attack. Not per model but one total. So based on that, I agree with Mort that it has to be a typo.

 

Rules as Intended seems as though they were giving 1 extra attack per model that rolled a 6+. It makes little sense when used in the context of "Unit" unless we are talking about single model units.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Spagunk

[Andrés Pacheco]

I think Hammer DC are going to be the ideal recipients for many of our buffs, being our highest damage output option as a unit, and I am definitely going to be running part of the combination you mentioned above.

 

Hammer DC: Great damage against multi-wound targets, worth losing the pistol vs a Fist.

Lemartes: Rerolling all melee misses is great for hammers, rerolling the charge gives tactical options.

Librarian: +1A is extra efficient on these weapons, and the 4++ save is almost like having a SS. Depending on rolls and opponent denying.

 

It's going to be an expensive group to run, so I'll probably add a couple of basic DC (or at most BP + PS) to take initial wounds, but it's going to pack a punch.

 

I'd be tempted to add a JP Priest for the +1S but that would only come into play against T8, so it'd depend on the enemy, and 3 characters following the DC would be a lot of eggs in 1 basket. I think I'd probably have the Priest follow a unit of SG, to give them the extra strength where it might give them a better wound roll more often (it would turn Axes into a 4+ wound roll vs T6, make Swords 3+ to wound vs T4).

 

As for DC delivery Lemartes does bring Deep Strike into play, but 9" isn't easy even with a reroll and a failed charge would be painful with hammers. I'd be more inclined to use their 12" move to jump nto position for a shorter charge the following turn, but we'll see!

Completely agree with your points.

 

The hammers probably don't need a priest, even though wounding T8 on a 3+ is funny, they do enough wounds against big stuff anyway so is probably overkill. Priest works better with S4 swords with their AP -3, sword 'n' board with a priest for blending T4 :)

 

Sanguine Shield and Unleash Rage have great synergy here, with a 4++ almost compensating for risky deepstrike charge, and 10 extra hammer attacks is just money.

 

It's still a risky proposition, getting 2 6+ powers off, then a 50/50 charge, but when it hits, legends will be made. Hopefully the Ravens and 'Clads will be enough of a distraction to spread the threat a bit.

 

EDIT: Because idiot.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Andrés Pacheco

[Arkhanist]

Regarding the grail of doom; the phrasing is "that unit may immediately make another close combat attack using the same weapons". But I think you need to be even more literal on the interpretation of 'unit'.

"models move and fight in units, made up of one or more models" (rules pg 126)

 

The unit gets another attack. The unit as a whole. Not each model in the unit or it would have said so (and weapons would be singular in british english if it did), or even have to be the same model that rolled the hit. So if your unit of DC gets 3 hits of 6+ with its chainswords, that unit gets 3 extra attacks with chainswords (total) - which means you can pick which model(s) of the unit get to roll those 3 attacks if positioning is important. It also means individual models don't have to be within 6" of corbulo to benefit, only any part of the unit - same as the strength aura which improves the unit's statline.

 

Note; attack rolls are done individually in the rules. You're expected to speed things up by bulk rolling where S, AP & D are the same; but the opponent still allocates wounds one by one. So 'using the same weapons' means that the unit only gets extra attacks with the same type of weapon that got the 6 in the first place. Thunderhammers and fists can't normally get a 6 because of their -1 to hit. So they normally can't cause these extra attacks (they'd need a +1 to hit aura). They also can't be used to make the extra attacks that came from chainswords or power swords etc.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Arkhanist

[Morticon]

Yeah, I would have to agree with the "unit" making "a single" attack interpretation.

I think the clause regarding "another attack using the same weapons" is what creates the ambiguity when paired with the first reference to unit.  

I dont think id ever dream of playing it where the whole unit gets a round of attacks for each 6.  Wishful thinking, that. 



 

[Thoridon]

Aye, that's how I read it too.

 

"Each time you make a hit roll of 6+ in the Fight phase" = Every roll of 6+ triggers it, so it can be triggered multiple times in the same fight.

 

"for a BA unit within 6" of Corbulo" = Just 1 model in the unit has to be in range to grant it to the whole unit.

 

"that unit may immediately make another close combat attack using the same weapons" = You make 1 extra attack per trigger (not per model), using the same weapon that activated the trigger.

 

So if you have 5 with chainswords, and 2 of the chainsword hit rolls were 6+, you generate 2 extra chainsword attacks as each trigger generates 1 attack.

If you have 3 power swords, and 1 of the power sword hit rolls was 6+, you generate 1 extra power sword attack.

 

To me the key words are each time (allows multiple triggering), attack (to designate 1 attack per trigger) and weapons (to make clear it's only hit rolls from that weapon type). The plural usage of weapons reinforces the fact that it can be triggered multiple times if you roll more than 1 6+ during the same fight, and that different weapons in the same unit trigger it separately.

 

If they hadn't added the bit about weapons you could've had chainswords generating extra attacks for hammers. This wording prevents that, and keeps weapon types separate for triggering purposes in mixed weapon units.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Thoridon

[Jimm]

It's a shame they didn't just give dc this rule as least it would of given them a bit more character. Let's hope the codex improves things a little on that front

 

What's peoples thoughts on vanguard vet loadouts?

[Thoridon]

DC benefit from the +1A on the charge, which is still quite a big deal considering every unit lost that as a base (so +1 now is the same as +2 before) and everyone lost pistols granting an extra attack. In 7th DC might've had 5 attacks on the charge but that was only 1 more than non-DC with the same loadout (ie. VV), so a 25% increase. Now it's 3 vs 2, so a 50% increase. DC have less attacks than before but compared to other units they have relatively more.

 

As for Vanguard Vets the only reason I see to use them over DC or SG is the access to cheap Storm Shields. I'm quite tempted to pair a group of SS VVs with Dante to act as his wound soakers going monster hunting, with something like a relic blade and hammer thrown in for a damage boost. Dante plus 1 or 2 of the VVs dish out the damage, the rest take it. I'd probably still put basic power weapons on the wound soakers given how cheap they are now.

[Jbird]

It's a shame they didn't just give dc this rule as least it would of given them a bit more character. Let's hope the codex improves things a little on that front

 

What's peoples thoughts on vanguard vet loadouts?

I'm thinking a unit of about 7 VV, 4 of which with Hammers and SS with the others to soak up fire, and go for the big targets. Maybe take a chaplain for hit rerolls in combat Edited June 16, 2017 by Jbird

[Karhedron]

As for Vanguard Vets the only reason I see to use them over DC or SG is the access to cheap Storm Shields. I'm quite tempted to pair a group of SS VVs with Dante to act as his wound soakers going monster hunting, with something like a relic blade and hammer thrown in for a damage boost. Dante plus 1 or 2 of the VVs dish out the damage, the rest take it. I'd probably still put basic power weapons on the wound soakers given how cheap they are now.

Wouldn't Company Veterans be better for this? For 1 point more than VV, they can soak wounds off Dante in CC. It makes them cheaper as not everyone needs a Storm Shield. If a big bad swings at Dante, you can use his 2+/4++ save and then pass off any unsaved wounds onto cheap company vets. If the big bad swings at the squad instead, use 2-3 Storm shields to take the brunt of the assault while Dante kicks its derrier.

[Thoridon]

Wouldn't Company Veterans be better for this? For 1 point more than VV, they can soak wounds off Dante in CC. It makes them cheaper as not everyone needs a Storm Shield. If a big bad swings at Dante, you can use his 2+/4++ save and then pass off any unsaved wounds onto cheap company vets. If the big bad swings at the squad instead, use 2-3 Storm shields to take the brunt of the assault while Dante kicks its derrier.

 

Sorry, yes, with BA getting access to jump packs for Company Vets it'd be this datasheet for the wound saving. Quite right Same models and equipment though.

 

Interestingly a 5-man squad would only be 1 extra point per model in matched play but 9 power level vs 7 using that system so the company vet approach would be relatively more expensive in power level games.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Thoridon

[Jimm]

I was thinking of them taking for ss as from what I've seen so far from 8th armour saves don't count for much where as inv seem to be gold. A tanky quick 5man squad was what I was thinking, prob a couple of hammers

[Morticon]

It's a shame they didn't just give dc this rule as least it would of given them a bit more character. Let's hope the codex improves things a little on that front

 

What's peoples thoughts on vanguard vet loadouts?

 

Been rocking a 10man with 5 shields, 2 PW, 1Hammer. Been trading out the BP for extra chainsword on the other 5. 

 

233 with packs, 213 without. Puts out 26x regular attacks, then the specials. 

 

[Crimson Ghost IX]

I am looking at VV for my inferno pistol carriers with storm shield for melta big game hunting and perhaps drawing fire.

Thunderhammer & shield on sarge. 3-4 dudes with inferno pistol and shield. Up to 5 chainsword and shield wound soakers.

 

More MSU(ish) with 3 inferno and 2-3 wound soakers also might work out. 12 inch moves make the 6 inch range loss on melta really worth it to my eyes. Not needing transportation gives a player more points for toys but all these units get expensive fast hehheh.

 

I think they will be doing real work and the shield will likely really pay for itself on the drop and if the target gets out of close combat. Also cheap power weapons for everyone make the shield very appealing for my own defense.

 

I am gonna omit them in smaller games and hope my DC will be enough for now. (my group is gonna play 1000pts at least thru this weekend). But I suspect I will lean on them more and more over DC as time goes by. Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Points go so fast in 8th. We will see.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Van vets defintelty don't seem to be a bad deal by any means.

 

Looking at death company and moral, it may be better to go with MSU of 5 instead of a squads of 10?

[Calistarius]

Van vets defintelty don't seem to be a bad deal by any means.

Looking at death company and moral, it may be better to go with MSU of 5 instead of a squads of 10?

Probably so, unless they're benefitting from Astorath/Lemartes buffs.