8th edition centurions overcoated.

[Race Bannon]

But Rhinos are sooo 30k.

[Ishagu]

On the Centurions v Razorback debate, I should mention that you can't simply take 3 Razorbacks. They are dedicated transports so you'll need other units first.

[Prot]

On the Centurions v Razorback debate, I should mention that you can't simply take 3 Razorbacks. They are dedicated transports so you'll need other units first.

 

That wouldn't be so hard to do though, would it?

 

This does give Primaris another negative since it would definitely be harder for them!

 

I've been looking at Centurions and was working on a new box and I stopped working on them once the leaks came out. I think their damage output is just fine, but I do agree they seem over costed. That being said it does feel like for lascannons  you're better off using a transport, or heck the landraider, but just some chasis that has the higher T7 which is key.

 

What I've seen so far in my experience it's just a lot harder to get rid of T7 typically. Though I'm finding everyone slacked on melta but I got absolutely owned by it in my last game. But all things being equal I was surprisingly turned off of Centurions this edition, but I haven't actually fielded them. 

[Lysere]

Well centurions do have the option for missiles and Las which razors do not. Combined with the omniscope and various character bonuses you can get more mileage out of those three centurions than you would three razorbacks. While the razor is better for just the Las, when you factor in the missiles and all the bonuses you can get from characters and the added durability of apothecaries combined with the potential for a final attack with the banner a single squad of centurions can be far more dangerous.

 

In a vacuum the razor might seem better, but when you add in everything else we have (and should be taking) the centurions will probably have the upper hand in terms of dakka.

[Gothical]

Well centurions do have the option for missiles and Las which razors do not. Combined with the omniscope and various character bonuses you can get more mileage out of those three centurions than you would three razorbacks. While the razor is better for just the Las, when you factor in the missiles and all the bonuses you can get from characters and the added durability of apothecaries combined with the potential for a final attack with the banner a single squad of centurions can be far more dangerous.

 

In a vacuum the razor might seem better, but when you add in everything else we have (and should be taking) the centurions will probably have the upper hand in terms of dakka.

 

Not only that but the Centurions can shoot at 9 different targets, the Razorbacks only 3, giving them a lot of flexibility.

[Ishagu]

I think Grav and Hurricane Bolter Centurions aren't costed as insanely high as Las and Missiles.

 

And they fit nicely in a Landraider to get them mid table with an apothecary.

[leth]

I am thinking a mix to be honest. One las/missile and then the rest heavy bolter hurricane.

[Ishagu]

Not worth it to mix. Best to have a unit that engages at a specific range and against a specific target.

8th is shaping up to be a fast game about positioning. It's best to know exactly where to deploy your units and position them against specific targets.

 

The Grav Cannon isn't much more expensive than a heavy bolter but hits a lot harder. Not many units can carry Grav Cannons without suffering a movement penalty.

[Gothical]

Not worth it to mix. Best to have a unit that engages at a specific range and against a specific target.

8th is shaping up to be a fast game about positioning. It's best to know exactly where to deploy your units and position them against specific targets.

 

The Grav Cannon isn't much more expensive than a heavy bolter but hits a lot harder. Not many units can carry Grav Cannons without suffering a movement penalty.

 

Ranges I quite possibly agree with you on, but what is the harm in taking mixed units? Literally every gun the Centurions carry can be fired at a different target, so that doesn't come into it (as it did in prior editions); if anything the fact the controlling player assigns wounds makes a mixed unit more effective (as in an all-comers list you can stack wounds on the less-useful-against-that-particular-opponent models). Thanks to the new AP system and way vehicles work, even having a less-than-optimal target for one or two models in a whole squad means they can still contribute (as a HB can reasonably hurt tanks and monsters now).

[Ishagu]

Centurions could always split fire (not quite as freely as now granted) and even then mixing weapons never played as ideal in all of my experience.

 

I think the Grav and Hurricane Bolters make for nasty infantry killing, as well as dealing with vehicles due to the decent volume of the Grav. These guys would output 36 Bolter shots and 12 Grav Cannon shots at 12" - That's enough to cut down cheap hordes or put the hurt on elite units.

 

I'm not saying it wouldn't function with mixed weapons, but I think that Las Cannons are readily available on other units, and they are a very random weapon that needs to be taken in extra numbers to really work and get decent averages. When you're paying big points for a unit why not gear it to do something very well? Kinda the old diluted function over focused function argument.

 

Imo focused function wins for the simple reason that you have specific units to respond to specific areas on the board. Let's say you're running MSU and have scattered a few Las Cannons amongst your troops. You need those troops spread out to capture objectives and engage units, but the opponent has deployed an Imperial Knight/Baneblade/Big scary unit etc. on one of the flanks - out of line of sight of half of your scattered Las Cannons.

By all accounts with the increase in unit costs, you probably won't see the same numbers of big expensive units as last edition which makes me think it will be vital to deliver the right firepower to the right place at the right moment. We'll just have to play test in the meantime. I'll be using my Cents to punish infantry at mid range, and units like my Sicarans/Deredeo/Las Destroyer Vindicators/Landraiders/Quad Rapiers/etc to deal with tougher units.

[Gothical]

Valid points, but I guess I am approaching this with a slightly different methodology. The new "Split Fire" is vastly better than the old, on a weapon-by-weapon basis than model-by-model basis and without limitation, which is why mixed squads can work.

 

I totally get where you are coming from with MSU specialisation to counter threats, but consider this: instead of (for example) taking a unit of 3 with Heavy Bolters/Hurricanes and a unit of 3 with Grav/Missiles, take one unit of 6. This means that against a player with a Knight any anti-Centurion fire can be passed off onto the 3 Heavy Bolter guys (who can still hurt the thing with a moderate degree of success or shoot something else), whilst against an Ork army you can put the damage on the Grav guys whilst the Heavy Bolters massacre the mobs (and the Grav target any vehicles straying into range). If you had MSU units then the opponent can just eliminate the most effective one against them and ignore the other, a larger mixed unit prevents that.

 

I do think both methods are very valid strategies.

 

When it comes to weapons I initially thought the same as you, particularly as I like the all-Las Predator a great deal now, but the sheer amount of long-ranged tank-killing power for a Las/Missile squad is insane (especially in cover for 1+ Saves and with an Apothecary to revive them), though do consider the Missiles on the Grav Centurions given that otherwise you are capped at 24" range on a model moving 4" a turn, the Assault nature of the missiles means you can advance and still shoot D3 36" range Krak missiles per model (NB: D3 damage not D6 of "true" Krak). All the options are pretty groovy thanks to the new rules.

[leth]

I think part of the reason for split squads is that you eed a combination of both types of weapons now and so it really is not wasted if you combine both types into a squad. Combined with the high costs of heavy weapons you can't afford to have everyone specialize.

 

So you have two cheaper cents who are your volume of fire and bullet catchers, then you have your one focused on anti larger guy platform.

 

One thing that is important to think about is how expensive the "chassis" is compared to other chassis for the same weapons. So if I want two lascannons and a missile launcher it is minimum 39 points in marines. So you are paying for the increased toughness, armor save, etc. also easier to buff.

[MajorNese]

I guess my guys will have 2 dakka cents and one lascannon. Even two lascannons are decent firepower, and the cheap ones die first. Not points effective compared to a razorback, but I've got the box around anyway. As a 20p upgrade, I might skip the missile launcher though.