Will 8th Edition kill small town Horus Heresy?

[Cornelias]

 

 

There are Heresy players in Boston, New York, Pittsburg, Philly, Baltimore, and D.C. You should be within two hours a group or another gamer.

Is this sarcasm? It has to be. You realize how large the United States are? I live in Columbus, Ga which is far more than two hours to any of the cities you mentioned. And I am even on the same coast you reference.

 

I do not think it is unreasonable for 30k to have some kind of rules to adapt to 8th in order to play against 40k armies. My 30k army is going to gather dust until FW/GW releases some kind of rules update to address this.

30k was never intended to mix with 40k, it just used the same base ruleset.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

There are Heresy players in Boston, New York, Pittsburg, Philly, Baltimore, and D.C. You should be within two hours a group or another gamer.

Is this sarcasm? It has to be. You realize how large the United States are? I live in Columbus, Ga which is far more than two hours to any of the cities you mentioned. And I am even on the same coast you reference.

 

I do not think it is unreasonable for 30k to have some kind of rules to adapt to 8th in order to play against 40k armies. My 30k army is going to gather dust until FW/GW releases some kind of rules update to address this.

OP said northeast. It would take me six hours to get to NYC.

 

Also, if you're from Columbus there should be a ton of gamers at Benning, I lived in Auburn last year and there were club teams for the school. I went to college in Dahlonega, which you might be familiar with being a fellow Georgian. Earlier in school before they developed up 400 I had to drive to Suwanee for a game, or the store in ATL.

[carlisimo]

Let's not forget that the guy in charge of 30k was ill and passed away.  I wouldn't be surprised if that put a lot of things on hold.  At the last big event, Alan Blight said that 30k would switch over to 8th, so the 7.5 book may only be a stopgap measure.  Or they may have tried, and realized that they couldn't write new Legiones Astartes rules, Rites of War, and Provenances that felt different for all the armies but still worked.  A lot of them were based on reserve manipulation, initiative, and morale, things that have changed significantly.  There were also unsubstantiated rumors of FW being slow to receive information from GW, in which case they wouldn't have had enough time.

So there are lots of reasons why 30k might not be switching over, and many of them only explain why it might be delayed, not canceled.  All you can do is try to piece together a 40k Space Marine army with them - which would be the more balanced option.  Any semblance of balance in 7th ed. 30k vs. 40k games was largely coincidental.

[Noserenda]

Given Tony C has openly said if you have a 7th ed rulebook you wont need the "new" one i think calling it 7.5 might be wildly optimistic...

And yeah, our group here would have definitely preferred a half arsed Index-Horus Heresy, (even within a month or so) with at least the basics to nothing for who knows how long, i mean half the point of the new Index Layouts is being able to tweak things easily down the line :D 

I also think people are grasping at straws saying 30k v 40k was never intended, they are after all the same game...

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't think 30k vs. 40k was intended but I also don't think the intention is to permanently stay with 7th

[Bulwyf]

 

 

There are Heresy players in Boston, New York, Pittsburg, Philly, Baltimore, and D.C. You should be within two hours a group or another gamer.

Is this sarcasm? It has to be. You realize how large the United States are? I live in Columbus, Ga which is far more than two hours to any of the cities you mentioned. And I am even on the same coast you reference.

 

I do not think it is unreasonable for 30k to have some kind of rules to adapt to 8th in order to play against 40k armies. My 30k army is going to gather dust until FW/GW releases some kind of rules update to address this.

30k was never intended to mix with 40k, it just used the same base ruleset.

 

 

That is not true. The first book FAQ explicitly states you can play 30k armies with 40k armies.

[CaptainStabby]

 

 

 

There are Heresy players in Boston, New York, Pittsburg, Philly, Baltimore, and D.C. You should be within two hours a group or another gamer.

Is this sarcasm? It has to be. You realize how large the United States are? I live in Columbus, Ga which is far more than two hours to any of the cities you mentioned. And I am even on the same coast you reference.

 

I do not think it is unreasonable for 30k to have some kind of rules to adapt to 8th in order to play against 40k armies. My 30k army is going to gather dust until FW/GW releases some kind of rules update to address this.

30k was never intended to mix with 40k, it just used the same base ruleset.

 

 

That is not true. The first book FAQ explicitly states you can play 30k armies with 40k armies.

 

Kinda... Just because you COULD doesn't mean it meshed all that well together, the design philosophies for HH and 7E proper were already different and that's with the same base  ruleset.

 

Looking at it from a production standpoint, it's insane to think they would switch gears on the HH stuff mid stride. I don't think that is a reasonable expectation, Angelus, we know is well underway and is using the 7E base. I could see them making a switch once hey hit a logical cutoff point like say after the Battle of Terra and the death of the Emperor and Horus. Making the switch to 8E as a base for The Scouring and such, it wouldn't shock me if we saw something like that, but I can't see it happening before then.

 

Honestly from a business standpoint leaving it 7th is a good move. It lets the people that hate the idea of 8th and primaris marines have something to cling to, and gives people a reason to continue to purchase smallmarines. The plastic HH stuff that for rules for 7E will get 8E treatment as well, as will all of the FW books so, it's not largely different than it is now really.

[Bulwyf]

 

 

 

 

There are Heresy players in Boston, New York, Pittsburg, Philly, Baltimore, and D.C. You should be within two hours a group or another gamer.

Is this sarcasm? It has to be. You realize how large the United States are? I live in Columbus, Ga which is far more than two hours to any of the cities you mentioned. And I am even on the same coast you reference.

 

I do not think it is unreasonable for 30k to have some kind of rules to adapt to 8th in order to play against 40k armies. My 30k army is going to gather dust until FW/GW releases some kind of rules update to address this.

30k was never intended to mix with 40k, it just used the same base ruleset.

 

 

That is not true. The first book FAQ explicitly states you can play 30k armies with 40k armies.

 

Kinda... Just because you COULD doesn't mean it meshed all that well together, the design philosophies for HH and 7E proper were already different and that's with the same base  ruleset.

 

Looking at it from a production standpoint, it's insane to think they would switch gears on the HH stuff mid stride. I don't think that is a reasonable expectation, Angelus, we know is well underway and is using the 7E base. I could see them making a switch once hey hit a logical cutoff point like say after the Battle of Terra and the death of the Emperor and Horus. Making the switch to 8E as a base for The Scouring and such, it wouldn't shock me if we saw something like that, but I can't see it happening before then.

 

Honestly from a business standpoint leaving it 7th is a good move. It lets the people that hate the idea of 8th and primaris marines have something to cling to, and gives people a reason to continue to purchase smallmarines. The plastic HH stuff that for rules for 7E will get 8E treatment as well, as will all of the FW books so, it's not largely different than it is now really.

 

I didn't expect them to switch mid stream as it were...I simply was expecting/hoping for some kind of errata when 8th releases to let the 30k armies still play against 40k. Not a complete abandonment of the existing rule set.

[Dantay VI]

Considering the massive amounts of delay put into Inferno.

 

I do not think it would be unreasonable to expect Angelus to be delayed a few months to get it 8th compatible. Combine it with an AoD book for generic legion models and an FAQ for legion specific units and Bam done.

 

Will the 30K scene take a hit. Most likely, but it will not completely die off. If there is a major problem for smaller gaming or fledgeling 30K gaming groups; Proxy the 30K models you have for 40K units, as many are cross compatible, for me deathsworn have become wulfen, seeker and slayers are wolf guard, recon are scouts but lose the 3+ armour save termies are wolf guard etc.

 

It'll work for me as a stop gap until:

 

A my friend has a legion army of his own or

 

B HH catches up to 8th edition and I can kick his DA butt all over the gaming table :D 

 

We know that most tanks will be covered for 8th ed rules in the new FW 40K books, so we should be okay

[Noserenda]

Id be very surprised if Angelus is being written in 7th tbh, i mean look at Inferno... A whole bunch of 8th influenced rules in there and i think a lot of the issues/delays may be down to that. Especially the Thousand sons who are pretty unfun to play against in 7th due to the broken Psychic phase.

And i can say a lot of the proto-heresy stuff was tested extensively against 40k stuff of the time in the lead up to betrayal waaaay before the FAQ. I mean for one thing FW are aware that not everyone had Heresy armies or a player base before their books.

[Galron]

I think the profit hit will be the decision maker here. HH is the cash cow of FW. I would easily venture to say the vast majority of 40k gamers in the States are individuals or a couple people with HH armies playing in 40k groups and have a completely different culture than Europe(makes sense when you look at a map and compared to the US, Berlin is close enough to almost be a suburb of Paris :P ). I would also venture to say we have more 40k players in the US just based on population. When HH players cant use their armies except by proxy as other armies then they aren't going to continue buying HH stuff. I have zero intention of buying any 30k material until army lists for 8th come up. No vehicles I need currently. (On the same note I don't plan on any marine purchases or projects until they bring back chapter tactics) So I am working on two 40k armies which have sat shelved for years , orks and IG, until someone at GW gets their butts in gear and produces rules I can use at a price I can afford. I am quite sure just from reading this thread and following some of my facebook feeds that I am clearly not the only one. FW IS(not maybe) going to take a major profit hit from this. It doesn't matter whatever reasons they may have had, both tragic or ill-informed from GW, for keeping HH in 7th, profit alone is going to drive them to quickly put out a stopgap FAQ in the near future followed by a book which will allow HH to be played in 8th just to try stop the money hemorrhage.  

[Marshal Rohr]

That doesn't logically follow, Galron. You've been working on Orks and IG for 40k, two factions with uncertain futures in 8th Edition. While orks will be safer than IG (maybe, they might get Orruk'd) any IG purchases could turn out to be as useless as any further Heresy purchases. In fact, unless someone is focusing solely on Death Guard and Primaris, they might very well waste just as much money as someone buying new models for their Heresy armies.

[Gorgoff]

Id be very surprised if Angelus is being written in 7th tbh, i mean look at Inferno... A whole bunch of 8th influenced rules in there and i think a lot of the issues/delays may be down to that. Especially the Thousand sons who are pretty unfun to play against in 7th due to the broken Psychic phase.

 

I would be surprise, if we would get Angelus in 8th since FW said this:

 

"The 8th edition rules didn't give us the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this"

 

Keep dreaming, sky is the limit and so forth, but they'll do a Horus Heresy rulebook. They even showed pictures of that. Why should they bring Angelus in 8th then? Makes no sense at all.

 

By the way. 7th psychic phase is only broken if your opponent is a douche. Like everthing else can be broken if your opponent is 'That guy'. ;)

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

 

 

IMHO a quick and dirty port to 8th would do more damage to HH than staying in 7th till all the legions are released. My reasoning for this is between with all the possible LA and ROW available in HH it'll be a nightmare to balance so I'd rather them take their time rather than rush it and get it right.We've all read the indexes for 40k by now which are a quick and dirty port of the codexes and they are missing chapter tactics and my 40k ironhands have gone from being a fairly unique and interesting sm army to generic marines without any benefits I might as well just say the are <ultramarine> just to have flavour rather than being bland as :cuss

 Out of curiosity, how could making the game more available to play, if in reduced form, hurt it more than cutting a chunk of its player base out entirely?  Assuming that the 8th port would have been 'here's enough rules to keep playing while we work on getting everything up to par', which seems the most likely scenario if such a thing had occurred.

 Because it's in reduced form... A reduced form is something the base of 30k does not want..

As opposed to what we got instead (IE: Nothing)? I dunno. I would happily have taken an Index: Horus Heresy instead, and I suspect I'm not alone.Impossible to truly know what the base wants without a broader net for information, after all.

What do you mean "I.e. Nothing" evidently we're getting our own 7.5e rulebook.. that is not nothing.. While it is essentially streamlined 7th edition for 30k it is still something.

 

For everyone else.. other than the players who feel as if they can't play with out a port to 8t. because of where they live and who they play with.. will the HH as a game actually benefit from being in an 8th environment all? Would 8th make HH a better game? I don't think it would. I agree with the those of the HH crowd that believe 30k is its own niche game and is more of a "gentlemens" game than 40k. I'm happy it's staying right where it is and I hope it continues.

[MysticTemplar]

Id be very surprised if Angelus is being written in 7th tbh, i mean look at Inferno... A whole bunch of 8th influenced rules in there and i think a lot of the issues/delays may be down to that. Especially the Thousand sons who are pretty unfun to play against in 7th due to the broken Psychic phase.

I would be surprise, if we would get Angelus in 8th since FW said this:

"The 8th edition rules didn't give us the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this"

Keep dreaming, sky is the limit and so forth, but they'll do a Horus Heresy rulebook. They even showed pictures of that. Why should they bring Angelus in 8th then? Makes no sense at all.

By the way. 7th psychic phase is only broken if your opponent is a douche. Like everthing else can be broken if your opponent is 'That guy'.

The Psychic Phase in 7th edition is painful, but it's more symptomatic of how ridiculously hit and miss Psychic powers are in general - and polite agreements are not an excuse for bad game design. Politely agreeing to ignore the parts of the system that are broken does not stop the system from being broken, after all. Especially when broken elements are easy to hit by accident, like psychic powers can be, especially if you don't realize how completely out of whack invisibility is. (Everyone shoots snapshots isn't obviously broken on first glance, until you realize that it also turns off flamers and blast weapons.)

IMHO a quick and dirty port to 8th would do more damage to HH than staying in 7th till all the legions are released. My reasoning for this is between with all the possible LA and ROW available in HH it'll be a nightmare to balance so I'd rather them take their time rather than rush it and get it right.We've all read the indexes for 40k by now which are a quick and dirty port of the codexes and they are missing chapter tactics and my 40k ironhands have gone from being a fairly unique and interesting sm army to generic marines without any benefits I might as well just say the are <ultramarine> just to have flavour rather than being bland as

Out of curiosity, how could making the game more available to play, if in reduced form, hurt it more than cutting a chunk of its player base out entirely? Assuming that the 8th port would have been 'here's enough rules to keep playing while we work on getting everything up to par', which seems the most likely scenario if such a thing had occurred.

Because it's in reduced form... A reduced form is something the base of 30k does not want..

As opposed to what we got instead (IE: Nothing)? I dunno. I would happily have taken an Index: Horus Heresy instead, and I suspect I'm not alone.Impossible to truly know what the base wants without a broader net for information, after all.

What do you mean "I.e. Nothing" evidently we're getting our own 7.5e rulebook.. that is not nothing.. While it is essentially streamlined 7th edition for 30k it is still something.

For everyone else.. other than the players who feel as if they can't play with out a port to 8t. because of where they live and who they play with.. will the HH as a game actually benefit from being in an 8th environment all? Would 8th make HH a better game? I don't think it would. I agree with the those of the HH crowd that believe 30k is its own niche game and is more of a "gentlemens" game than 40k. I'm happy it's staying right where it is and I hope it continues.

In context, nothing was related to 8th Edition. So clearly the 7th core book doesn't really qualify for that. And the thing is? I do think moving to 8th would make the 30k stuff better. Because as far as I'm concerned, 7th edition was, and is, awful, especially with how it relates to some of the most iconic models on the table top - I find it really, really depressing to have amazing looking dreadnoughts rendered completely irrelevant because of an immobilize result on the table, for example.

That, and I'm unconvinced that being a niche within a niche is healthy for the Horus Heresy, especially when decisions are made to make moving into that niche harder.

[Galron]

It would make it a better game because it will actually be supported. FW profits are going to tank. That's a given. If they don't fix the tank quickly they will have to let people go. Letting people go means less new stuff coming out. I personally don't have a problem with 7th, even vs 40k armies and their formations and such I never really had an issue. But with most people switching to 8th there will be a very small market for HH. Your might have your group but how much does your group spend monthly on HH products from FW? The 7.5 book isn't going to sell much as most players are buying the 8th book and associated indexes.

 

No one is saying you cant continue to play 7th, I would if I could because I enjoy the game, but shifting it to 8th means it will be supported by current rules and new players who will in turn buy things thus leading FW to make new stuff so people will buy them. Losing likely more than half of the player base with no chance of new players is going to hurt.

 

@Marshall- aside from some ebay buys to fill the gaps in my orks, I already have a full guard army and most of an ork army waiting for paint. Been piecing together Elysians for years and never did anything with them and an old metal cadian army that I have played exactly once and destroyed my opponent(even with 3 wraithknights) so badly I shelved it. So pretty much just a painting project over anything else. Current index rules says I can almost play my Elysians model for model once FW does the Imperium army book even without actual Elysian rules.

[Marshal Rohr]

FW profits won't tank because literally all their Heresy products can be used as 40k models except Solar Auxilia and Custodes. Other than the rules, forge world models have always sold well because they are beautiful models. Krieg sold for years, for example.

[1ncarnadine]

Angelus, we know is well underway and is using the 7E base.

 

Keep in mind Angelus might not be all that "well under way." In February they said they hadn't even really started on the book, and since then we haven't seen any evidence that they've done more than the Blood Angels transfers. For all we know, their writing staff is currently working on sorting out Fires of Cyraxus. 

 

edit: well, actually via Penddraig's summary of WHFest on h30k, they are organizing Angelus's campaign sections right now, but the rules-writing is on-hold. Makes sense.

[Galron]

Krieg is 40k as are Elysian, their rules will be updated at some point, I see Krieg before Elysian due to ease of the army. We will see about some of the 30k vehicles. I have some gathering dust still. They have plastic options out there for individual marines. Volkite weapons have not been updated which makes a good chunk of my NL infantry in drop pods useless. There are quite a few models for HH by FW that have no analogues in 40k except by rule of cool. They make a ton off of their big books which the HH versions will not be selling many of especially not to new players. 

 

Speaking of new books for units we have already bought the rules for, likely more than once, are they making say an Imperial book, chaos book, etc, or just reprinting the old books updated for 8th? Any word on an electronic format yet? 

 

Heres a new problem I thought of also on the side topic of new FW books, they said the rules for many 30k vehicles will be in them along with the Badab characters. Will this include the chapter tactics or will we be forced to buy yet another book once GW figures out how to do chapter tactics for their codex  SM and gets followed by FW months to a year later?

 

EDIT: I just got a response from FW on this issue, there will be four indexes, first two will obviously be marines and chaos which will have whatever 30k crossovers they plan on including for the time being. The next two laterin the month will be xenos and imperial guard. Further and more important to our wallets, there will be digital formats released as well.

[ShadowCore67]

My buddy and I feel the same way. We feel like we're the only two 30k players in Western PA. We have a blast playing with each other but it can also get stale playing the same army. The one way to change that up is to play against 40k but that soon won't be possible.

[Scribe]

Its silly to suggest FW sales will tank over this, more players used 30K for 30K, than they did to cross streams and play against 40K.

[Galron]

I seriously doubt that, outside of major metro areas in the US, even in Orlando I have never played vs a 30k player. If I was a betting person I would bet a single player or two in a 40k group is the norm and mono-30k groups are rare. It looks like things are a bit different in Europe.

[Scribe]

I seriously doubt that, outside of major metro areas in the US, even in Orlando I have never played vs a 30k player. If I was a betting person I would bet a single player or two in a 40k group is the norm and mono-30k groups are rare. It looks like things are a bit different in Europe.

 

I'm in Canada, in a city of about 40K (lol) and our play group had at its peak, about 8 30K armies.

[MysticTemplar]

Its silly to suggest FW sales will tank over this, more players used 30K for 30K, than they did to cross streams and play against 40K.

 

There's pressures past that, though.

 

In addition to 30k players playing against 40k players, there was a thread over at Dakka that had a poll on what edition people wanted to go forward in with regards to HH - and 8th was winning by a significant margin (~75%).  Granted, Dakka forum goers aren't a true cross section of the community, but then neither are B&Cers - forums inherently skew to the part of your population willing to argue about silly things on forums, after all, which tend to be the most enfranchised players.  But it seems like there's likely to be attrition in favor of 40k from at least part of the populace who wanted to go ahead with 8th until such a thing materializes for 30k.

 

Also - do you have a source for your claim?  I'm curious.  (I'm also curious as to how people got into 30k, with regards to new player acquisition.  I got into it initially via 40k - I was looking for something new to play against my friends, and went 'Oh, this Alpha Legion thing looks neat.  I should try that.'  So I did.  But it's a path that won't exist any more...)

[Galron]

I got into it from 40k back when Betrayal came out. I loved the army list and that it wasn't one build beats all. That and I wanted a Night Lord legion that was truer to its routes and not infected with chaos like its portrayed currently. That and drop pods.

 

No source, like I said, was just a guess based on people and groups I know. I know people who play 30k, we just don't live near each other enough to actually play and they play only 40k players as well. There is a couple here I know of who we cant get our schedules right to get games in vs each other. Cant form a group if you cant group up lol. Our main store in Orlando never allowed for HH in any official event or league either.