Will 8th Edition kill small town Horus Heresy?

[Gorgoff]

The rules said yes and the fluff said no.

Which one is more importend got an answer know.

[Caboosegg]

im happy that HH is staying 7th if i want to play a game of Mortal wound spam with simplfied rules i would go play a game of AoS

[lokkorex]

im happy that HH is staying 7th if i want to play a game of Mortal wound spam with simplfied rules i would go play a game of AoS

You, i like you.

 

After a couple days of cursing gw under my breath now, i've come to the same realisation i get every time something controversial/stupid/wardian gets released.

 

It doesn't really matter, since i choose who i play against, and what background i like to be canon.

 

And like i said in another thread, i can't wait to get my hands on fw's 7th+ book.

[Marshal Rohr]

If the reports coming out of the seminar are true, if you've got your 7th rule book you've got everything you need. This may not be a 7.5 release.

[Gorgoff]

If the reports coming out of the seminar are true, if you've got your 7th rule book you've got everything you need. This may not be a 7.5 release.

Shut up and take my money anyway!

[Grey Mage]

On a Saturday it shouldn't be a problem. If you live in a rural area, you have to have a car anyway.

I grew up in Montana, this is a horrible assertion.

 

Driving 8 hours for a game is not going to happen, and the HH will eventually need to switch to 8th edition or be found only in a few hold out areas.

[Galron]

You guys have fun playing 7th with diminishing numbers of players. 30k only grew even pre-Calth because it was completely compatible with 40k rules and thus it was easy to find games. Without that compatibility your groups will become isolated islands, and your isolated islands will not turn enough profit for FW to keep the divide. Not trying to be rude, but this move will kill 30k in the States overall. I know in Europe you guys can just cross the road from your houses and be in different countries with new groups but we are a bit more spread out. Yes most vehicles can be carried over but legions themselves cannot and many of the unique weapons do not.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

On a Saturday it shouldn't be a problem. If you live in a rural area, you have to have a car anyway.

I grew up in Montana, this is a horrible assertion.

 

Driving 8 hours for a game is not going to happen, and the HH will eventually need to switch to 8th edition or be found only in a few hold out areas.

GM, you know that rural Montana would obviously be different than rural Pennsylvania or Virginia. Obviously I'm talking about the region he specifically mentioned.

[1000 Sons]

In the short run your might be buggered for hh in smaller communities. The one positive is in the new forge world books almost everything from 30k vehicles, and dreads is now in 40k. So you can use your hh army as a 40k chapter until Fw regroup and gets the heresy train back on the tracks.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

If the reports coming out of the seminar are true, if you've got your 7th rule book you've got everything you need. This may not be a 7.5 release.

I believe the 7.5 release is about having streamlined rules for 30k and getting rid of the 40k stuff that doesn't fit. At least that's what they were claiming. 

[shandwen]

I think it's pretty clear FW had a book or two already completed for 7th, so didn't want to go back to the drawing board for 8th without releasing them.

The work to correct stuff for 8th is already half done as the indexes are done, but as the off-shots of fantasy show non-suppored game slowly die. (And only being supported by an online store is not real support).

7.5 is a temporary fix, just to keep people busy until the next set of books can be completed.

[Withershadow]

 Once again this is going to have a major impact on FW profits so I see the conversion happening sooner than later, probably within two fiscal quarters even if its just a stopgap FAQ like the current indexes from GW. 

I seriously doubt this.  I would say a relatively small fraction of FW purchases actually go towards HH gaming.  All of the Legion models minus the Primarchs can be used to represent 40K characters and elite units, most of the vehicles and dreadnoughts have 40K rules as relic vehicles, the Mechanicum stuff is going to get rules in the next big IA book, and even the Primarchs and other 30K-only units end up getting sold anyway just as cool modeling projects.  I have a Horus and a Guilliman, I never intend to play with Horus or Guilliman.

 

The game would be an even more unbalanced mess if they tried to just convert everything now.  I am happy we will have a complete and consolidated ruleset for the game.  Think of the Age of Darkness as a specialist game akin to Shadow Wars or the Prospero/Calth board games, that give you an alternate way to play with your models.

 

FW will be just fine.

 

My hope is next book focuses on the last 3 Legions (forget the dark mechanicum stuff, the daemon rules can be one page long just listing what you can use from the 7th edition codex), which completes the ruleset, and then they can reprint the Legions rulebook and re-balance some of the Legion unique stinkers.  "Perfect" game status achieved.

[Scribe]

 

I'm 99% sure they said that it was to be upgraded in time.

 

I tried to say this in the last thread, dude. They had said that, yes. And then Alan died. I tried not being quite so blunt, but that has changed everything. Now? Who freaking knows. I know what Alan was going to do, and that it was very much his decision to make, but that's meaningless now. 

 

 

Oh, well that at least clears up some of the confusion. :[

[Fire Golem]

I think it's pretty clear FW had a book or two already completed for 7th, so didn't want to go back to the drawing board for 8th without releasing them.

The work to correct stuff for 8th is already half done as the indexes are done, but as the off-shots of fantasy show non-suppored game slowly die. (And only being supported by an online store is not real support).

7.5 is a temporary fix, just to keep people busy until the next set of books can be completed.

At the last event (before Warhammerfest) they said they hadn't done much work yet on Angelus, so I highly doubt they have a book or two already complete in 7th.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If the main reason you want HH converted to 8th is so you can play against 40k armies that's not a good one.

[Fire Golem]

If the main reason you want HH converted to 8th is so you can play against 40k armies that's not a good one.

Some peoples only opponents are 40k armies, so for them it is a good reason.

[Charlo]

 

 

 

Can someone point me to where fw said 8th doesnt give enough depth for 18 legions please?

They said it in the seminar.

 

I guarantee you that was either a joke, something being taken out of context, or a good-humoured way of making being backed into a corner sound like a choice. I imagine it's like when Tony calls HH players "discerning gamers" - it's a cute in-joke, he's not really saying they're better than the 40K peasants.

 

Chiming in as some who was sat in the first Forge World seminar on the Saturday so heard all of this first hand (obviously it was repeated and could have had different responses/ questions but yeah).

 

When the announcement of Heresy Staying in 7th was made, the reaction in the room was clear; uncertainty & disappointment. Hushed whispers of "why" and general frustration was apparent (myself included) - not helped by the fact the entire event was 99% 8TH ED HYPE TRAIN.

 

Tony obviously could see this, so had to justify his announcement, so the facts:

• It's not an update to the rules or the heralded 7.5 it is the 7th rulebook with the unecessary bits removed and the Heresy relevant bits kept in. I cannot stress enough that this is all that was said, emphasized by the fact Tony said that "you don't need thisif you have a 7th ed rulebook currently."
• Unconfirmed if this means the Heresy missions and basic rules/ unit selection etc will be in it and clarified (e.g. all the Lords of War stuff that has multiple variations per Red Book, losing when tabled at the beginning/ end of a turn and what not). The 7th FAQ for 40k wasn't mentioned either if that will be included.
• Tony said that the Heresy was made for 7th, so it will be sticking with it. All of the legion rules were written for 7th to give them depth in a Marine vs Marine world so that's where they stay.

And that's it.

 

The real reason this book is coming out? GW will no longer sell a 7th Ed rulebook so FW needed to make one so people can still get on board the Heresy Train.

 

Will we go to 8th? Maybe, Tony's word were "we'll review it as we go and update accordingly." Anyone else saying "100% confirmed 7th/ 8th in the future!" is spreading MISINFORMATION.

 

 

If the main reason you want HH converted to 8th is so you can play against 40k armies that's not a good one.

Some peoples only opponents are 40k armies, so for them it is a good reason.

 

Totally sympathize, but, this is an issue that many video games have when people start wanting to play the game in a different way to it was designed. Which is awesome, but that is down to the community to find a solution.

 

30k vs 40k is not the game forge world made and is not the game they will go on to make. The 7th books are all still there and I'm sure those players you used to have 30/40k battles with will still own/ have access to them so nothing stopping you having a good old PURGE THE ALIEN 7th ed style.

[Yodhrin]

​

 

 

Can someone point me to where fw said 8th doesnt give enough depth for 18 legions please?

They said it in the seminar.

 

I guarantee you that was either a joke, something being taken out of context, or a good-humoured way of making being backed into a corner sound like a choice. I imagine it's like when Tony calls HH players "discerning gamers" - it's a cute in-joke, he's not really saying they're better than the 40K peasants.

 

Were you there, out of interest? Or are you just reading a sentiment into the statement that doesn't need to be there - 8th edition streamlines a lot of things that the Legion rules depend on, saying 8th then doesn't have enough depth to make those Legion rules distinct from each other easily is a judgement of the rules, not the players; I read it as a simple statement of fact, not a value judgement. It seems like it'd be a massive pain in the backside and a lot of effort to come up with Legion rules after a lot of stuff like psychic powers and morale have been pretty thoroughly gutted.

​

​Not to mention that while I sympathise with people who will struggle to find a game because they played their 30K lists against 40K opponents, shifting to an entirely new ruleset before they've even finished the first run through of Legion rules, nevermind all the non-Marine stuff that only has partial or completely nonexistent support as yet, is a bad idea even in isolation. It was bad enough when BL decided to shift their formats right in the middle of the Heresy series and screw over everyone who was collecting them in MMPB, the Black and Red books are a whole lot more expensive. When the black books are finished and there are post-Terra final versions of the red books available in 7th/AoD, FW can go nuts with 8th Ed Heresy if they like, but given the investment that's been required to buy in to the Heresy they should be focused on providing a complete product before completely changing the basic engine of the game.

[TheAlephNull]

 

I'm 99% sure they said that it was to be upgraded in time.

 

I tried to say this in the last thread, dude. They had said that, yes. And then Alan died. I tried not being quite so blunt, but that has changed everything. Now? Who freaking knows. I know what Alan was going to do, and that it was very much his decision to make, but that's meaningless now. 

 

Thank you for candor. I'm so sorry at the loss of Alan. On a fan level, I loved his writing, his direction for Warhammer, and the incredible way he had of sneaking in so many historical and technological goodies into the grim darkness we all love. I never met the man, and I still felt a great sense of grief at the announcement of his passing. On a personal level, my best wishes to you and the FW/BL community. I'm still grappling with the sudden death of a dear friend. I get it. The pain, anger, grief, and healing process are long, especially when it is the loss of someone so intellectually important in your life.

 

On the topic of my original post, I will say I am very pleased with the new Chaos Index. It's not perfect, I will still have some units collecting dust until I find another 30k player, but it is a massive step in the right direction. It does give me a fun way to engage with 8th until I figure out my local gaming community and 30K, or until Forge World has a chance to work things out on their end. I don't think 30K should port to 8th simply to be able to play against 40k armies, my suggestion is that having some compatibility between the two platforms is important to the growth of the hobby, especially in the North American setting. I don't want to simply gripe, I just want to see this hobby excel and grow and I question if a rules divergence will hinder that.

[ronin_cse]

 

On a Saturday it shouldn't be a problem. If you live in a rural area, you have to have a car anyway.

I grew up in Montana, this is a horrible assertion.

 

Driving 8 hours for a game is not going to happen, and the HH will eventually need to switch to 8th edition or be found only in a few hold out areas.

 

 

I'm IN Montana right now and although I recently moved to a town with a great game store I did have to drive an hour away just to play any game, much less HH in particular. That being said 2 hours away just to play would be a huge increase and would absolutely prohibit me from playing, ESPECIALLY if it was just a choice between 30k and 40k and not just playing period.

 

 

 

On a Saturday it shouldn't be a problem. If you live in a rural area, you have to have a car anyway.

I grew up in Montana, this is a horrible assertion.

 

Driving 8 hours for a game is not going to happen, and the HH will eventually need to switch to 8th edition or be found only in a few hold out areas.

GM, you know that rural Montana would obviously be different than rural Pennsylvania or Virginia. Obviously I'm talking about the region he specifically mentioned.

 

 

Why would driving 2 hours each way to play 30k be any different in Montana vs the East Coast? It's still a 4 hours chunk of your day just to play a different rule set. 

[ronin_cse]

 

Can someone point me to where fw said 8th doesnt give enough depth for 18 legions please?

They said it in the seminar.

 

And I guess it is Not a piece of cake to convert the rules for the 8th.

First of all you need to make special rules for 18 legions. A lot of them like Night Lords, Emperor's Children or Salamanders do not have any rule which is also present in the 8th.

There are no fear test, no sweeping advance or stuff like that. So you have to make new rules.

For every unit in the game!

Last time I checked there where more then 60 units in the red book so that is quite a task.

Depending on what kind of rules you want for your legion you have to adjust the point costs of units. In addition to that you have to make fitting points for all the unique HH units and weapons. And did I meantioned Rite of Wars?

You have to re-do they as well.

And in the end you only get house rules which may or may not be accepted by other groups then your own.

Wouldn"'t it be a lot easier to keep playing the 7th until FW releases the AoD Core Rules?

And by the way. There are quite some of you who have stated that your gaming group won't play with you anymore because HH won't get 8th rules.

I have to ask what kind of horrible person refuses to play a game with his friend and forces him to buy a new army just because of a new edition?

That is absolutely horrific.

They know the rules and have their books, so why do they do that? I can Not understand that.

Not.

At.

All.

 

 

Well they transferred over all their 40k models, and then some, to 8th ed just fine and it sounds like they have had at least a year to get ready.

 

If anything I would say making special rules for the various legions would be EASIER with 8th since you don't have to figured out ways to shoehorn all the various special rules into fitting, you can just make up totally new stuff and make it work how you envision it. Most of the current legion rules would probably be able to transfer over fairly easily and could also be applied to all the units thanks to keywords. All the other universal special rules from 7th have also already been translated to 8th by regular GW in various forms so most of that works has already been done also.

 

I suppose some of the Legion rules would need to be reworked but seriously do we really believe that the rules writers at FW are incapable of figuring out how those rules would work in 8th edition?

[A D-B]

​

 

 

Can someone point me to where fw said 8th doesnt give enough depth for 18 legions please?

They said it in the seminar.

 

I guarantee you that was either a joke, something being taken out of context, or a good-humoured way of making being backed into a corner sound like a choice. I imagine it's like when Tony calls HH players "discerning gamers" - it's a cute in-joke, he's not really saying they're better than the 40K peasants.

 

Were you there, out of interest? Or are you just reading a sentiment into the statement that doesn't need to be there - 8th edition streamlines a lot of things that the Legion rules depend on, saying 8th then doesn't have enough depth to make those Legion rules distinct from each other easily is a judgement of the rules, not the players; I read it as a simple statement of fact, not a value judgement. It seems like it'd be a massive pain in the backside and a lot of effort to come up with Legion rules after a lot of stuff like psychic powers and morale have been pretty thoroughly gutted.

 

Oh, totally. I'm not saying it's not a lot of effort. Of course it's a lot of effort. But the conversion to 8th would add Legion-specific rules and make them all different, so your point doesn't hold water. The conversion to 8th would involve all of that individuality and distinctiveness between Legions being put into their rules.

 

Tony always makes those kinds of jokes, like when he calls HH players "the more discerning gamers" with a wry smile. He's a charismatic and funny guy. But you're right, I won't speak for him or assume. And of course FW had discussions on whether to change at all. (It'd be mad not to discuss it!) But, sticking to facts, I know what Alan's intentions were - and without going into real detail, I know "8th doesn't give enough depth for the Legions" is simply not something he thought, and didn't factor into his plans. So it seems infinitely more likely that was a joke or something taken out of context by one of the audience with a preference in it staying as 7th edition to suit their tastes - as witnessed even in this thread.

 

And I'll level with you. I've already had one jackal online insisting that "Alan would have preferred the HH as 7th". Not only was that vile, it's the kind of ghoulish nonsense I'd like to head off at the pass here. What Alan was going to do sadly doesn't matter any more, and Forge World will think and do vastly different things in his absence, I'm sure. But that quote is already doing the rounds online as yet another shot in the "HH is for the mature gamers and 40K is for kids" war that some people are desperate for to be true. If there's any sentiment being attributed to the quote, it's certainly not exclusively by me, and I'm not on the bad guys' side, so to speak.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

 

On a Saturday it shouldn't be a problem. If you live in a rural area, you have to have a car anyway.

I grew up in Montana, this is a horrible assertion.

Driving 8 hours for a game is not going to happen, and the HH will eventually need to switch to 8th edition or be found only in a few hold out areas.

 

I'm IN Montana right now and although I recently moved to a town with a great game store I did have to drive an hour away just to play any game, much less HH in particular. That being said 2 hours away just to play would be a huge increase and would absolutely prohibit me from playing, ESPECIALLY if it was just a choice between 30k and 40k and not just playing period.

 

 

 

On a Saturday it shouldn't be a problem. If you live in a rural area, you have to have a car anyway.

I grew up in Montana, this is a horrible assertion.

Driving 8 hours for a game is not going to happen, and the HH will eventually need to switch to 8th edition or be found only in a few hold out areas.

GM, you know that rural Montana would obviously be different than rural Pennsylvania or Virginia. Obviously I'm talking about the region he specifically mentioned.

 

Why would driving 2 hours each way to play 30k be any different in Montana vs the East Coast? It's still a 4 hours chunk of your day just to play a different rule set.

It's much more rare on the east coast. If you live in a huge state with a population under one million well good luck with that .

 

 

 

If the main reason you want HH converted to 8th is so you can play against 40k armies that's not a good one.

Some peoples only opponents are 40k armies, so for them it is a good reason.

Not any more now though. Time to move on or ask them to play their old 40k armies.

[Marshal Rohr]

Guys, when I lived in Oman I didn't demand Games Workshop start a 40k outreach into the market there just so I could get a game. Similarly, if you live in a rural area that comes with some acknowledgement everything from internet, to fish, to non-Walmart goods will be more difficult to come by.

[TheAlephNull]

Guys, when I lived in Oman I didn't demand Games Workshop start a 40k outreach into the market there just so I could get a game. Similarly, if you live in a rural area that comes with some acknowledgement everything from internet, to fish, to non-Walmart goods will be more difficult to come by.

Oi, I don't even know where to begin here....

 

I don't recall demanding anything of GW/FW. I'm addressing the very real problem that a linked gaming system is now diverging and that this will likely have a negative impact on the community. 30K needs to grow and the compatibility helped that to happen. I also get we lost Alan, so patience is in order. I am merely raising a valid concern.

 

Sure, 40K support is sparse in Oman, but that's a very minor market. The U.S. and Canada on the other hand, yes, they should factor heavily into GW/FW/BL's marketing strategy and metropolitan centers make up only a portion of the customer base here.

 

As for your assumptions about rural living, non sequitur?