Raptors,Warp talons and Jump pack tactics!

[Dardl]

Welcome brothers of the long war! With the leak of the new rules chaos rises! And from this chaos comes opportunity!

I genuinely think this edition has made jump packs one of the go to for chaos space marines.

Just to clarify Raptors and anything with a jump pack can now what used to be called deep strike into combat at the start of any phase anywhere on the board without scattering as long as they are at least 9 inches away from any enemy model. 

Warp talons can do the same but you cannot fire overwatch on them the turn they arrive. 

So as a night lords player I thought we could discuss ways to best utilize raptors, warp talons and jump lords and sorcerers in 8th. 

My idea of utilizing them would involve dropping a sorcerer and a jump lord with two squads of 10 melta raptors back table casting warptime to get your raptors into position. I would use the warp talons as straight up hq hunters

Power swords are only 4 pts each now so you could have a jump lord using one for 97 points! 

I would favor larger groups of raptors over msu unless fighting a tank heavy list to spam melta. 

 

[Brother Aiwass]

They're ok-ish (the talons). I would just put on them an icon of wrath to re-roll charge instead of a sorc because:

 

-it's cheaper

-you want your sorc to cast warptime on those nasty atramentar who just arrived to the party

 

And i wouldn't go small with the talons either, for the sake of damage output if anything.

[Lord Abaia]

Unfortunately warp talons can't take icons it seems or else Icon of Wrath on them would be worth it's weight in gold.

 

One of the first new units I'm going to need will for sure be a deepstrike sorcerer of some sort. Between casting Warp Time on Talons, Raptors, or Termies and casting Prescience on anything I will always have a use for him. I'm leaning towards a Jump Sorcerer over TDA for more post DS mobility.

 

Also I'm pretty excited about plasma gun Raptors. Fly allowing them to fall back and fire a bunch of plasma gun and pistol shots into a unit sounds like exactly what my NL would do against a tough opponent.

[Vanger]

They're ok-ish (the talons). I would just put on them an icon of wrath to re-roll charge instead of a sorc because:

 

-it's cheaper

-you want your sorc to cast warptime on those nasty atramentar who just arrived to the party

 

And i wouldn't go small with the talons either, for the sake of damage output if anything.

Sadly Warptalons cannot take any Chaos Icon.

[Brother Aiwass]

Such a disappointment :(

[Sception]

so you put wrath on your raptors, maybe give them some melta or plasma guns so they can do some work even if they fail their charge, and use warp time on your warp talons.

 

Alternatively, you could use terminators instead of jump troops, but they get very expensive very quickly in this edition.  Like 50+ points apiece if you give them combi weapons.

[Raven1]

For Warp Talons my thoughts are large squads 15 to 20 with a demon prince for synergy. He casts warp time on the Talons.

 

Deepstrike

Warptime move

Assault as many units as possibly to the them up with out worrying about the overwatch.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Raven1

[Kierdale]

I'm keen on making some triple plasma raptors (plasma x2, + combi) :tu:

And a jump pack sorcerer, definitely.

[Dardl]

so you put wrath on your raptors, maybe give them some melta or plasma guns so they can do some work even if they fail their charge, and use warp time on your warp talons.

 

Alternatively, you could use terminators instead of jump troops, but they get very expensive very quickly in this edition.  Like 50+ points apiece if you give them combi weapons.

With chainsword's as they are and power swords so cheap why not throw plasma or melta onto them? 

 

10 mad squad of raptors with chain swords, two melta and power sword on champ (shame melta bombs are gone) is only 208 points!

 

I think that is dirt cheap for what you are getting! 

 

 

 

For Warp Talons my thoughts are large squads 15 to 20 with a demon prince for synergy. He casts warp time on the Talons.

 

Deepstrike

Warptime move

Assault as many units as possibly to the them up with out worrying about the overwatch.

I'd much rather two squads of 10 warp talons with a jump sorc to get them into combat. I think they are going to be fantastic being used as a decapitating strike.

 

I'm keen on making some triple plasma raptors (plasma x2, + combi)

And a jump pack sorcerer, definitely.

My thoughts but with melta instead! 

[Dardl]

I think I will try this list out

Hq: 

Chaos Lord Jump pack with power sword and chainsword: 97 pts 
Sorceror jump pack force sword: 126 
Chaos lord lightning claws: 87pts 

Elites 

Chaos Terminators twin lightning claws champ 2 powerfist 2 chain fist heavy flamer: 269 

fast attack 
10 raptors 2 melta, power sword : 208 pts 
10 raptors 2 melta, power sword : 208 pts 
10 Warp Talons : 280 pts 

Troops: 
9 assault marines with rhino, 1x flamer : 196 pts 
5 bolter marines with plasma with rhino : 148 pts 
5 bolter marines with plasma : 78 pts 

Heavy Support: 
5 havocs two las cannons: 115pts 
5 Havocs 4 plasma with rhino: 187pts 

[the jeske]

there are three main problems with such a list. first people are going to deploy in a checker formation[and in the case of marine armies expect also a wild west style rhino bunker], so unless the opponent is a total noob charing his whole army is not going to happen often[or larger parts of it]. Second you still need units to take objectives, and half your stuff [as unit count wise] has to be on the table. Now unless someone plays vs necron and deploys bad/the table is a glass plain/lave board, the chance of having stuff shouldn't be evaporating turn 1, but it still can be  problem.

Third problem is more of an edition one. 8th is going to have[at least at starrt of the edition] melee armies. The drop and charge army is all well and good, when your playing vs IG or Tau. But it is not going to do so well if your playing vs demons or some versions of tyranids.

 

So a working raptor/talon army would have to be build with those 3 problems in mind. Also there are other small things we do not know right now. for example we do not know at how many points the game is going to solidify. There is always the chance that the points cost is going to be high enough for melee alfa strike to not do enough damage on the turn it drops, turning the army totaly non valid[but it could as well go the other way, and then GW is probably going to nerf charging out of "deep strike"].

[Dardl]

there are three main problems with such a list. first people are going to deploy in a checker formation[and in the case of marine armies expect also a wild west style rhino bunker], so unless the opponent is a total noob charing his whole army is not going to happen often[or larger parts of it]. Second you still need units to take objectives, and half your stuff [as unit count wise] has to be on the table. Now unless someone plays vs necron and deploys bad/the table is a glass plain/lave board, the chance of having stuff shouldn't be evaporating turn 1, but it still can be  problem.

Third problem is more of an edition one. 8th is going to have[at least at starrt of the edition] melee armies. The drop and charge army is all well and good, when your playing vs IG or Tau. But it is not going to do so well if your playing vs demons or some versions of tyranids.

 

So a working raptor/talon army would have to be build with those 3 problems in mind. Also there are other small things we do not know right now. for example we do not know at how many points the game is going to solidify. There is always the chance that the points cost is going to be high enough for melee alfa strike to not do enough damage on the turn it drops, turning the army totaly non valid[but it could as well go the other way, and then GW is probably going to nerf charging out of "deep strike"].

Hey man thanks for the advice but i'm kinda confused :P 

 

Why would the raptors suffer against a rhino bunker?  They would deep strike hit the rhino or whatever models they wanna charge or they could on the next movement phase drop into the middle the rest of the army comes in.  I'm pretty sure I have half my army starting don't I? :o

 

"The drop and charge army is all well and good, when your playing vs IG or Tau. But it is not going to do so well if your playing vs demons or some versions of tyranids." This part I agree with and I'm not really sure how to mitigate it. Do you think I need more raptors? 

 

"Also there are other small things we do not know right now. for example we do not know at how many points the game is going to solidify. There is always the chance that the points cost is going to be high enough for melee alfa strike to not do enough damage on the turn it drops, turning the army totaly non valid[but it could as well go the other way, and then GW is probably going to nerf charging out of "deep strike]." This entire paragraph I don't really understand :P 

 

[the jeske]

Because dudes charing rhinos and then getting shot up and counter charged are not resilient enough. and it is not sure that you can go through 2 rhinos within a single turn

 

 

 

This entire paragraph I don't really understand

 

the alfa strike melee army works, because half of your units that drop down and charge do enough damge to the opposing army to make is stop working[not the actual elimination of most/all opposing models takes of course longer]. Now this can only work if the points played mean that the points you spend on raptors+support vs stuff you kill, leaves not enough points in opposing army units to be efficient.  lets say to achive the anti raptor state a list requires 2500pts, and that at 2500 most good armies can bubble wrap themself or run very powerful counter units [and you still have to deal with melee armies]. now if the avarge game is 2000pts, your good. Luck, positioning may play a part in winning, but the list would be valid. But if the avarge game is 2500pts [aka all good armies can hard counter your set up], then the list is not valid at all. the problem with this is that we do not know how many points is the avarge army going to be.

[bozo69pd]

Good points I had not considered that for my army ideas yet... back to the drawing board!

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

Not sure if it's been brought up, but I'm really liking the idea of Raptors as the hammer to a berzerker/some sort of other assault force's anvil. Hold your deepstrikers in reserve until you manage to get your ground guys into charging position, then drop in behind- boom, now they can't walk out of combat, and you're protected from shooting on the subsequent turns. 

[bozo69pd]

Surround and conquer

[the jeske]

Good points I had not considered that for my army ideas yet... back to the drawing board!

also a lot depends what kind of a games your going to play pts vs power points will give you two different lists.

 

 

Not sure if it's been brought up, but I'm really liking the idea of Raptors as the hammer to a berzerker/some sort of other assault force's anvil. Hold your deepstrikers in reserve until you manage to get your ground guys into charging position, then drop in behind- boom, now they can't walk out of combat, and you're protected from shooting on the subsequent turns.

 

It is better to run just zerkers in a such situation. Otherwise your risking that when your zerkers end up in range, the loses they suffer from shoting are going to outweight the raptor drop. On the other hand msu raptors used as suicide units could work.

[Gordon Shumway]

You wouldn't be able to get the zerkers behind the enemy easily though. I would attack with the talons turn 1 from behind (if they can fit) as I run/drive up the zerkers. Then, if the enemy stays in combat, they can't overwatch. If they retreat, they still can't overwatch and they are now within zerkers charge range turn 2.

 

It seems to me Talons are almost on par with zerkers this edition with a five man squad putting out 16 -2 ap wounds and no overwatch. Even more if they benefit from the daemon marked buffs.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Gordon Shumway

[Sception]

They're putting out 16 AP-2 attacks, not wounds.  Closer to 10 hits, should be 7 to 8 wounds against T4 infantry.

[Gordon Shumway]

Yeah, my mistake. Attacks. 7-8 wounds vs marines is pretty good. What's the call on how much a min squad of Zerkers does?

[Brother Aiwass]

Assuming the charge, versus MEQ:

 

10 Talons = 6,6 dead MEQ

10 Zerker = 5,8 (with chainaxes only)

10 Zerker = 7,6 dead (chainaxes+chainswords)

5 Zerker = 3,05 (with chainaxes only)

5 Zerker = 3,79 (chainaxes+chainswords)

 

If the maths are ok, tho

:P

[Sception]

Does that include the zerkers attacking twice?  Though, of course, the second swing might be mitigated by the target unit swinging back first.

[Brother Aiwass]

Nope, only attacking once, for the sake of simplicity. I also should have stated that I used the chainsword RAW rule, so it's 2 with CA + 1 with CS attacks.

[Lord Abaia]

So I played a few small games this weekend and I think meltagun Raptors are still amazing. I used a 5-man 2 melta squad with a power fist champ as a really effective character/ elite killer in both games. I'm sure people will get smarter with positioning shortly, but I'm having a ball in the meantime.

 

I only used my Warp Talons in one game and they failed their charge and got charged and wrecked by a unit of Wolf Guard on the next turn. I didn't have any Sorcerer support though, and I'd say they need it more than the Raptors based on their higher point cost and since Raptors can still do work in the shooting phase.

 

Anyone else have any jump pack experiences this weekend?

[heptus]

I haven't got my own game yet, but have heard of many experiences from my friend. Many of them pointed out the fact that the new Falling Back system really hurt the close-combat army.